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Old 04-17-2012, 08:37 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
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There are more 'unknowns' with Tannehill right now than there are with Weeden, which plays into Tannehill having a higher bust potential IMO. You hope Tannehill will improve his decision making, whereas you already have an idea that Weeden has learned the importance of playing within himself and not forcing plays.

That's an interesting scenario, stlouisfan37.

Personally I'm a measurables ***** and have to discipline myself in not overrating athletes over football players.

IMO Blackmon is the better receiver currently, but already we all know that Stephen Hill is physically capable of making plays that Blackmon can't.

At worst I think Weeden is a high functioning game-manager who won't lose games for your team, Tannehill at this point is just too raw to imagine him starting before week 10 in 2012.

The bet you're taking by drafting Tannehill in the top 15 is whether or not you believe his habit of imploding late in games and his spotty decision making is attributable to his relative inexperience, or something more innate.

How much can you coach him up???

I had a friend compare Tannehill to Jay Cutler as NFL prospects. I didn't have an opinion. I see the similarities but I thought Cutler was more of a playmaker at Vanderbilt.

If you give Weeden protection and allow him to get into 'rhythm',( if anyone was a rhythm passer in college football last season, it was Weeden), I think he can be very productive.

But I don't think he's a guy who will ever be able to carry an offense.
Still the Browns are better with Weeden than McCoy IMO.

Despite putting up solid numbers in his first full season as a starter, can anyone point out Tannehill's best overall performance against a quality opponent defensively???
I can't.
Against the big boys in the Big 12, Tannehill didn't stand out.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:45 AM    (permalink
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Tannehill isnt a first round prospect either, the QB premium has bumped him up there. Lets not forget that. So if you're comparing Tannehill to Weeden, in my eyes you're putting two guys next to each other who don't belong in round 1 based solely on skill but rather their position. I'll tap out of this thread leaving you thi.

Weeden isn't ready to start right away in the NFL because he's 28.
Weeden and Tannehill will both be bad picks.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
not the same. weeden and blackmon have just as much potential to bust and weeden, at least, has a ceiling that's so much lower it might as well be on the ground floor. there is no 'bird in the hand' in this scenario. further, the assumption that weeden can start right away and tannehill can't is completely ludicrous.
If you want to nitpick the details then you have completely missed my point.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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He'll be drafted by the Green Bay Packers.
That would make me angry.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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He'll be drafted by the Green Bay Packers.
Yeah, I mean why draft and develop a young QB behind your superstar when you can draft a 30 year old backup whose shelf life is 5 years behind someone younger.

C'mon son.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:03 AM    (permalink
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not the same. weeden and blackmon have just as much potential to bust and weeden, at least, has a ceiling that's so much lower it might as well be on the ground floor. there is no 'bird in the hand' in this scenario. further, the assumption that weeden can start right away and tannehill can't is completely ludicrous.
I think it has to do with some young guys not being mature enough like JaWalrus and Gabbert, whereas a grown man like Weeden, will be mentally tougher. The problem with this line of thinking is that Tannehill has a good head on his shoulders, has handled adversity well and his brain is more able to absorb information do to his youth, so I actually think he'll adapt faster at the NFL level. Especially since Weeden isn't exactly an experienced QB himself.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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If you want to nitpick the details then you have completely missed my point.
The difference of risk between the two scenarios is a pretty big detail, kinda fundamental to the entire notion that that scenario would actually reflect one where a proven thing is being compared to an unproven but potentially more valuable thing.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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I think it has to do with some young guys not being mature enough like JaWalrus and Gabbert, whereas a grown man like Weeden, will be mentally tougher. The problem with this line of thinking is that Tannehill has a good head on his shoulders, has handled adversity well and his brain is more able to absorb information do to his youth, so I actually think he'll adapt faster at the NFL level. Especially since Weeden isn't exactly an experienced QB himself.
Boom. This is my problem when Cleveland comes up in the discussion because the problem with our current situation isn't a level of maturity or work ethic, it's physical tools. Weeden's physical tools aren't anything special and he's 3 or 4 years older than our incumbent QB, so where is the benefit?
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Boom. This is my problem when Cleveland comes up in the discussion because the problem with our current situation isn't a level of maturity or work ethic, it's physical tools. Weeden's physical tools aren't anything special and he's 3 or 4 years older than our incumbent QB, so where is the benefit?
Actually the physical package is a cut above, which puts him 2-3 cuts above Colt McCoy.

He has NFL size and bulk, and a plus arm. There was a significant arm injury, but it was 7 years ago, and has been thoroughly rehabbed and is well understood. He has average mobility for a drop back passer. His footwork and technique need work, but what rookie doesnt.

J
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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Actually the physical package is a cut above, which puts him 2-3 cuts above Colt McCoy.

He has NFL size and bulk, and a plus arm. There was a significant arm injury, but it was 7 years ago, and has been thoroughly rehabbed and is well understood. He has average mobility for a drop back passer. His footwork and technique need work, but what rookie doesnt.

J
I am not a Weeden basher but you cannot really lump him in with other rookies. Waiting for a 22/23 year old to develop and refine their footwork and technique are alot different than having to develop those things as a 29 year old.

I do think Weeden does have a solid skill set and is worthy of being drafted but not until the 3rd at the earliest.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Actually the physical package is a cut above, which puts him 2-3 cuts above Colt McCoy.

He has NFL size and bulk, and a plus arm. There was a significant arm injury, but it was 7 years ago, and has been thoroughly rehabbed and is well understood. He has average mobility for a drop back passer. His footwork and technique need work, but what rookie doesnt.

J
If you gonna be 28/29 and expect to start or get anywhere you should probably not have issues that will take a few years to iron out.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:23 PM    (permalink
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Actually the physical package is a cut above, which puts him 2-3 cuts above Colt McCoy.

He has NFL size and bulk, and a plus arm. There was a significant arm injury, but it was 7 years ago, and has been thoroughly rehabbed and is well understood. He has average mobility for a drop back passer. His footwork and technique need work, but what rookie doesnt.

J
He outweighs Colt by 5 lbs, so that's meaningless. So he's taller and has a decent arm. He is less athletic, 3 years older, and 2 years less NFL experience.

He's not an immediate upgrade and his upside is limited, so what's the point? Why waste the pick?

His physical tools aren't special, so to be this far behind the curve (read: 6-7 years of NFL experience behind his peers) does not make him a good investment in the first or early second round.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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Weeden has a strong arm, as strong as any QB in this draft IMO or close to it.
That alone makes him an automatic upgrade over McCoy.

He's a better fit for the Browns offense than Colt McCoy.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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There isn't really anything special about Weeden. I just don't see what would make him worth an early pick. He was a good college QB who executed well in a high producing offense.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:47 PM    (permalink
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Weeden has a strong arm, as strong as any QB in this draft IMO or close to it.
That alone makes him an automatic upgrade over McCoy.

He's a better fit for the Browns offense than Colt McCoy.
Stronger arm automatically equals upgrade. Got it. Your flawless logic astounds me.

How about the valid concerns about Weeden's jacked footwork and the fact that McCoy has 2 years of NFL experience on him?

I'd take McCoy (who's only 25 btw) all day long; and as we all know, McCoy isn't good.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:51 PM    (permalink
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Stronger arm automatically equals upgrade. Got it. Your flawless logic astounds me.

How about the valid concerns about Weeden's jacked footwork and the fact that McCoy has 2 years of NFL experience on him?

I'd take McCoy (who's only 25 btw) all day long; and as we all know, McCoy isn't good.
If a QB prospect can't learn how to drop back from under center, he doesn't deserve to be drafted.

There are no concerns about Weeden's footwork being 'jacked'.
Take him in the 7th, I still think Weeden is an upgrade over McCoy until proven otherwise.

You'd take McCoy over Weeden??
Why??
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:00 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, I mean why draft and develop a young QB behind your superstar when you can draft a 30 year old backup whose shelf life is 5 years behind someone younger.

C'mon son.
Because the Packers are the one team in the league that needs a backup exactly like Weeden. A developmental QB prospect does them no good. They need a backup and failed to address that position in free agency. Weeden is the best possible option to fill that void in this draft (besides Luck or Griffin, who they'll have no shot at).

And that offense is a perfect fit for Weeden's skill-set.
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:03 AM    (permalink
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Because the Packers are the one team in the league that needs a backup exactly like Weeden. A developmental QB prospect does them no good. They need a backup and failed to address that position in free agency. Weeden is the best possible option to fill that void in this draft (besides Luck or Griffin, who they'll have no shot at).

And that offense is a perfect fit for Weeden's skill-set.
If they could get Weeden in the 4th round you'd be right. But they can't, so you're not.
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:04 AM    (permalink
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For what it may be worth, TSN has him going 22 to the Browns.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/stor...&sct=hp_t12_a9

I have been saying since the Senior Bowl that Weeden would go top 50. I am now inclined to think that is a round late: Cleveland at #22 or some other team trading back or up to the #18-#21 range. I would not put it past the Eagles to take him at #15.

Seriously, figuring on his value from 2012-2015, where does he rank? If Tannehill is low 20s, Weeden has to be in the teens. Since he plays THE premium position, that is enough.

J
I actually think Weeden's a better early prospect than Tannehill. I can't see Ryan in the first round at all.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:06 AM    (permalink
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Honestly IMO Weeden isn't even the 4th best prospect at the QB position for the following reasons.

1. He isn't as pro ready as people like to think old doesn't mean ready.
2. He's old 29 years of age. At BEST he has 7 good years left but in all likelihood you will get 2 years for him to develop 3 years of OK production and 2 years of him declining.
3. His college production has a lot to do with the scheme and the freak of a WR he got to throw to.
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:26 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fear the elf View Post
He outweighs Colt by 5 lbs, so that's meaningless. So he's taller and has a decent arm. He is less athletic, 3 years older, and 2 years less NFL experience.

He's not an immediate upgrade and his upside is limited, so what's the point? Why waste the pick?

His physical tools aren't special, so to be this far behind the curve (read: 6-7 years of NFL experience behind his peers) does not make him a good investment in the first or early second round.
Special, no. No one this year has special tools. In this case it is not Weeden; its McCoy. McCoy has poor tools.

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Old 04-18-2012, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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Special, no. No one this year has special tools. In this case it is not Weeden; its McCoy. McCoy has poor tools.

J
I know, I know. He's only 6'1 and has a meh arm. But at least he can be my backup for 12 more years, while Weeden can only be my backup for another 7-8.

Oh, and another thing that may have been mentioned a few hundred times. Weeden is 29 with NO NFL EXPERIENCE. He's way behind in his development of understanding pro concepts in relation to his peers!
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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If a QB prospect can't learn how to drop back from under center, he doesn't deserve to be drafted.

There are no concerns about Weeden's footwork being 'jacked'.
Take him in the 7th, I still think Weeden is an upgrade over McCoy until proven otherwise.

You'd take McCoy over Weeden??
Why??
Jacked may have been the wrong word. It's been reported that his footwork has been known to get sloppy.

Btw, the logic again is not good. "Weeden is an upgrade over McCoy until proven otherwise."

Are you telling me that any draft prospect with somewhat positive buzz is better than any NFL starter until proven otherwise? What kind of sense does that make.

Simply because the cool thing is to say that Colt McCoy sucks, doesn't mean that every QB that graduates from college is destined to be a better pro than he is.

I have no delusions that he's a franchise QB, I just don't get how every QB is always step up from him, when a large percentage of QB prospects never even sniff starting for an NFL team.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fear the elf View Post
I know, I know. He's only 6'1 and has a meh arm. But at least he can be my backup for 12 more years, while Weeden can only be my backup for another 7-8.

Oh, and another thing that may have been mentioned a few hundred times. Weeden is 29 with NO NFL EXPERIENCE. He's way behind in his development of understanding pro concepts in relation to his peers!
His height is not relevant in this case. However, you wish his arm was as good as "meh." Suffice to say Weeden's arm is 3-4 grades better. If you cannot make the basic throws, defenses will eat you, and they have.

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Old 04-18-2012, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by onejayhawk View Post
His height is not relevant in this case. However, you wish his arm was as good as "meh." Suffice to say Weeden's arm is 3-4 grades better. If you cannot make the basic throws, defenses will eat you, and they have.

J
2-3 cuts and 3-4 grades. What kind of scale are we working on here?
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