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Old 04-18-2012, 11:38 AM    (permalink
onejayhawk
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Originally Posted by fear the elf View Post
2-3 cuts and 3-4 grades. What kind of scale are we working on here?
Something like this.

Excellent
Very Good
Good
Mediocre
Poor
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by onejayhawk View Post
Something like this.

Excellent
Very Good
Good
Mediocre
Poor
So if Weeden's 3/4 grades above McCoy's what's below poor? Cause Weeden's arm is Good at most.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
So if Weeden's 3/4 grades above McCoy's what's below poor? Cause Weeden's arm is Good at most.
excellent
very good
good
mediocre
poor
pennington
K moore
dorsey

That's what I think the scale is.
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by raiderz4life View Post
excellent
very good
good
mediocre
poor
pennington
K moore
dorsey

That's what I think the scale is.
Then Weeden's only 3 grades ahead of McCoy since he's right below where Pennington was before all of the surgeries piled up
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
So if Weeden's 3/4 grades above McCoy's what's below poor? Cause Weeden's arm is Good at most.
No. Very good at least. It isnt Taneehill's, quite, or even Wilson's, but still out of the expensive stuff.

He can fire one when he wants to. He takes a baseball length windup, but the fastball is a hummer. Speeding up his release will be a major part of his rookie education.

Somebody came up with the best assessment of Weeden that I have seen. No one in this draft is as good a rhythm passer as he is. It is easy to miss if you dont watch long segments, but when he is rolling, yardage just melts away.

J
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:28 PM    (permalink
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I like RT but his arm isn't elite. Since you are at least able to admit that Weeden's arm isn't as good as RT's then I fail to see how you can say his arm is very good. The zip isn't great down the field as his balls tend to flutter, his delivery isn't great and his placement isn't great either. He's just all around very average for an NFL QB, with how inexperienced he is for his age and shoulder abuse, I don't see what the incentive to pick him before round three is. That he might become a Matt Cassel in 2 years? Sweet...
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
I like RT but his arm isn't elite. Since you are at least able to admit that Weeden's arm isn't as good as RT's then I fail to see how you can say his arm is very good. The zip isn't great down the field as his balls tend to flutter, his delivery isn't great and his placement isn't great either. He's just all around very average for an NFL QB, with how inexperienced he is for his age and shoulder abuse, I don't see what the incentive to pick him before round three is. That he might become a Matt Cassel in 2 years? Sweet...
No Tannehill does not have an elite arm, but it is probably the best in the class.

Yes Weeden is inexperienced, but that is a good thing here. It means that more than just some polishing is possible. The shoulder abuse is grossly overblown. The injury was 7 years ago.

J
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by onejayhawk View Post
No Tannehill does not have an elite arm, but it is probably the best in the class.

Yes Weeden is inexperienced, but that is a good thing here. It means that more than just some polishing is possible. The shoulder abuse is grossly overblown. The injury was 7 years ago.

J
It is not a good thing. Being inexperienced is never a good thing, and it ESPECIALLY isn't good when you're going to be 29 before your first NFL season.

You've tried to spin him in a positive light for a while now, but this last attempt is flat out ridiculous. And humorous. It's a lil bit of both.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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No, most points have been ridiculous and I cant wait for a GM or soneone of that nature to justify the pick post draft.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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Because the Packers are the one team in the league that needs a backup exactly like Weeden. A developmental QB prospect does them no good. They need a backup and failed to address that position in free agency. Weeden is the best possible option to fill that void in this draft (besides Luck or Griffin, who they'll have no shot at).

And that offense is a perfect fit for Weeden's skill-set.
Weeden is 28 years old, but he's not a wizard. McCarthy's system is notoriously complex, and it's consistently taken a year for inexperienced NFL QBs to learn to run the system. Being older isn't going to change that.

If the Packers draft a 28 year old backup QB in the first three rounds, I'll have to invent new words to express my irritation.

Last edited by WCH : 04-18-2012 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:09 PM    (permalink
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They were trying so hard to push him as a late-first pick tonight on NFLN. It was hilarious. I wonder who his agent is.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:33 PM    (permalink
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They were trying so hard to push him as a late-first pick tonight on NFLN. It was hilarious. I wonder who his agent is.
Scott Boras is seeing if he can troll the NFL.
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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Greg Cosell put it best:

"Of course, in the NFL, the ideal scenario of a comfortable, secure pocket does not happen quite as often as quarterbacks would like. You must be able to function effectively in the eye of the storm or you won’t play on Sundays. That’s where Weeden had some problems. The sample was small, given how well he was protected, but it was there nonetheless. When blitzed, Weeden struggled with both recognition and execution. Mentally, there were times he panicked, and physically, he did not exhibit the kind of subtle pocket movement that must be part of a pocket passer’s game in the NFL."
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:46 AM    (permalink
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yes, they don't need a developmental backup, they need a rookie backup that will need development!!!!

nice logic fail.
If A-Rod goes down, Weeden is a better option to keep the ship from sinking than Harrell, Oseweiler, Cousins, Foles, Coleman, or Wilson because he is the most intelligent and mature of all of those players.

That is very valuable to a team gunning for a Super Bowl. If they draft say, Coleman, he'd be the backup. If A-Rod gets concussed again and misses three games, Coleman would do them no good and could potentially cost them their season.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:56 AM    (permalink
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Weeden is 28 years old, but he's not a wizard. McCarthy's system is notoriously complex, and it's consistently taken a year for inexperienced NFL QBs to learn to run the system. Being older isn't going to change that.

If the Packers draft a 28 year old backup QB in the first three rounds, I'll have to invent new words to express my irritation.
Being more mature and intelligent will help with that.

And I doubt McCarthy wants to go into the season with Graham Harrell as A-Rod concussion insurance. But maybe I'm wrong and they love Graham Harrell.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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oh, being older equals maturity. Yeah, I'm sure that Cromartie is more mature than...well...anyone who's entered the league after him.

Using age to say he's more mature, when it's not like those extra years have been spent playing football, is hilarious. the arguments in this thread are hilarious yet sad. They're making me laugh...but at the same time, making my eyes bleed and having me question any faith in humanity that i have. it's absurd
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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that's shockingly hideous reasoning. why even draft a qb, then? and what, specifically, makes weeden a more 'mature' qb? and why wouldn't weeden do them 'no good and potentially cost them their season'? because you say so? because he's 70 years old?

again, the reasoning EVERYONE has given for weeden, in nearly every argument for him, has been atrocious at best. pull up some tape, show why weeden is better than signing a *younger* FA who's actually played a down in a real league. or where weeden displays this 'maturity'. can't? then let's stop making **** up.
Thee logic is simple and bullet proof.

1) He rates a top 10 pick under normal circumstances, ie 23 years old
2) He is 5 years older than that
3) He will be cheaper than a top 10 pick
4) 15-25 picks is enough of a discount

I know you do not agree with #1. However, you should acknowledge that others make that assessment, so treat it as a given.

J
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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Thee logic is simple and bullet proof.

1) He rates a top 10 pick under normal circumstances, ie 23 years old
2) He is 5 years older than that
3) He will be cheaper than a top 10 pick
4) 15-25 picks is enough of a discount

I know you do not agree with #1. However, you should acknowledge that others make that assessment, so treat it as a given.

J
Why? Why does he rate as a top 10 pick? Is it the weak arm? The multiple surgeries? Is it the fact that he has sloppy feet? We've asked multiple times for you to give reasons for these kinds of comments, and you still haven't provided any. It's actually getting kind of funny now.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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Please make this thread stop. For the integrity of this board haha.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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People who say Weeden has a weak arm haven't watched four consecutive quarters of Okla State football.
The reason people are saying Weeden is 'mature' is because of his approach to the game and the fact that players felt like he was more an assistant coach playing QB than just another 19-22 year old.

It's silly to knock the maturity argument in Weeden's favor and assume it's just because of his age.
This is a guy who wasn't partying after games with his teammates getting wasted or chasing after co-eds. He'd already invested the money he earned from minor league baseball instead of buying the latest whip with 22 inch rims.

Weeden walked on in 2009 and before the start of the season was Zac Robinson's backup.
In two years he's re-written OSU passing records and has outplayed every top QB prospect he's played against in 2011.

Only two QBs have an argument for having played better than Weeden last season(Luck/Griffin - with a push for Russell Wilson), and I think it's safe to say if he were 23 yearsold he'd be a lock first rounder.

No one is saying being 28 years old makes Weeden 'mature'. Weeden IS mature and it probably correlates to the fact he's been on his own living as an adult in the minors and forced to learn how to be a professional.

His learning curve is going to be the same in the pros as the rest of the top QB prospects, but at least you know he isn't going to be big-timing it like Matt Leinart did as a rookie.

That said, most of the better college QBs nowadays could be described as 'mature' in their demeanor and approach, so it's not some special advantage Weeden has over Luck/RGIII/Wilson/Tannehill.

IMO Weeden is a guy who profiles very similarly to Matt Ryan/Matt Schaub, if he reaches his potential.

In this draft I wouldn't be surprised if Weeden goes late first.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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Thee logic is simple and bullet proof.

1) He rates a top 10 pick under normal circumstances, ie 23 years old
2) He is 5 years older than that
3) He will be cheaper than a top 10 pick
4) 15-25 picks is enough of a discount

I know you do not agree with #1. However, you should acknowledge that others make that assessment, so treat it as a given.

J
This is just epitomizes the fail that has plagued this thread lmao
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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why, exactly, would i just take your word on faith when you've proven (and the rest of the weeden supporters) completely incapable of making a cogent case for it? your entire argument rests on 'well other people like him' and 'he's got an amazing arm' with no justification given. if other people thought the moon was made out of cotton candy, would you take it as a given?

further, 15-25 picks is 'enough of a discount' for a guy who may already be old enough to only have 1 or 2 productive seasons, once he learns how to play in the nfl? yup, sure sounds like a guy i'd love to waste a first round pick on.
Because I made a cogent case for it, which you quoted, then ignored.

I give you points for consistency.

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Old 04-19-2012, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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no you didn't. you bullet pointed random 'facts' and gave them no support and have consistently done so throughout this thread. i'd you give you points for being stubborn, but that wouldn't really make any sense.
No I did not. You cannot fault logic by disputing the assumptions. I gave you a straight forward line of reasoning, which is what you asked to receive. It does not matter if you accept or reject the evaluation. The reasoning is the thing.

If Weeden is evaluated as a top 10 talent, whether you would do it or not, then he is evaluated as a top 10 talent. Your opinion makes no difference. Everything else follows from there.

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Old 04-19-2012, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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No I did not. You cannot fault logic by disputing the assumptions. I gave you a straight forward line of reasoning, which is what you asked to receive. It does not matter if you accept or reject the evaluation. The reasoning is the thing.

If Weeden is evaluated as a top 10 talent, whether you would do it or not, then he is evaluated as a top 10 talent. Your opinion makes no difference. Everything else follows from there.

J
When was he ever evaluated as a top 10 talent? When?
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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Bob McGinn just published his QB rankings that he bases on conversations with actual scouts working around the league. McGinn, I might add, is always excellent at this time of year. If you aren't reading his stuff, you're missing out.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packe...148026515.html

Three scouts were quoted in regards to Weeden (who McGinn ranks fifth in the class, behind Luck, RGIII, RT, and Cousins):

Scout 1: "The problem with him is he's older. He's like the guy (Chris Weinke) that came out of Florida State a few years ago. He's been productive. More arm than Cousins. He is mobile."

Scout 2: "At the Senior Bowl, when he threw on air, great. When the game started he had two picks and looked so uncomfortable when he had to move. I do not see it with this guy at all."

Scout 3: "Not a very strong arm. Not very good in the pocket. Average intelligence. He's just a guy."

Last edited by WCH : 04-19-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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