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Old 04-27-2012, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ElectricEye View Post
Alright, I'll bite.

We lack leadership. It lost us games. Almost every guy we draft has leadership ability/was a team captain. Why do we lack leadership? What makes Hightower a surer bet than any of the previous guys to give us leadership and win us football games with it?
He was touted as one of the best defensive leaders in this draft so theres that. I mean that was one of his strong selling points, why would we just say it wont translate, why couldn't we assume it will? I mean you can't just choose to rag on someone for their weaknesses and then assume their strengths wont translate over. Why would you do that except for just ragging on the guy? If were going to take scouts word about his weaknesses we should take into account the strengths but it's irritating to have to listen to guys not only harp on him for his weaknesses (which is fair game) but then just assume that his strengths aren't good enough either/ assume wont translate. Jesus and here I thought I was pessimistic. Again both of you keep saying we could of gotten better, well who would you of liked to be the pick there, I'm really just curious. I'm not saying it was the best, sexiest pick but we havent even used the rest of our picks (all two of them! haha). Let's wait to see what happens tonight, hell even how we use him. He may not be a pure pass rusher but he can get after the QB, and that's something we do need regardless of where it's from. Just chill out, and calling people idiotic because they have a different opinion on the matter is my definition of the word idiotic, if you want to cry over a pick in the draft fine thats what this place is for, but let's not resort to name calling.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Razor View Post
There was absolutely no respect for the Patriots defense last year. That was painfully clear in every game. It's also idiotic (just to use your kind word) to say that we didn't lose games because of a lack of leadership on defense. Hightower has crazy football IQ and is much more gifted than Mayo imo.

Forget this, I'm done...
So how do you get respect? By giving more speeches, or by actually going out and making plays? What does Hightower's leadership do to remedy the problems that McCourty and Arrington have on the outside? I for one don't event think Hightower's skill set is one that the Pats would want on the field in crunch time when they're trying to hold a lead. Hightower is a big body who can run in a straight line and hold the point of attack, but he's nowhere near as fluid or as explosive as Mayo. Just look at the combine numbers for a comparison.

Mayo: 4.56 40, 4.29 ss, 7.32 3 cone, 40.5" vert. 9'5" broad
Hightower: 4.64 40, 4.64 ss, 7.55 3 cone, 32" vert. 9'9" broad

Just by watching him you can see that he's not as good of an athlete in pads as his combine #'s indicate either. Listen I don't think he'll be a bad player for us, and he might even make some pro bowls down the line, but as it stands a thumper ILB who can bump down and be a mediocre edge rusher isn't what would have helped the most.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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He was touted as one of the best defensive leaders in this draft so theres that.
So was Brandon Spikes. I've yet to see someone come up with a logically refutation of the leadership arguments Cmarq and I have made other than "jesus stop being negative".

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I mean that was one of his strong selling points, why would we just say it wont translate, why couldn't we assume it will? I mean you can't just choose to rag on someone for their weaknesses and then assume their strengths wont translate over.
Again, we've been talking about team culture and chemistry. You can't run a 4.4 in that, or pick off X number of negative thoughts on the sideline. It's not a plug and play kind of thing. It's a bonus that Hightower is supposedly a good locker room guy, but that stuff isn't binary. You have to build that kind of thing.

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gain both of you keep saying we could of gotten better, well who would you of liked to be the pick there, I'm really just curious.
Honestly, I think we would have been better off staying put and seeing how the board broke. Not that what we gave up was too bad given our roster spot situation. Trading down should be met with skepticism, but considering the price we paid for Jones I really wouldn't have minded there(assuming we could have. We do it so often here that it's easy to forget that not everyone is willing to deal up for your pick 100% of the time). It's not really much about who else we could have taken(although I would have preferred to land Harrison Smith directly, even though it also would have been a reach), it's more about how much Hightower helps us vs. how much we paid for it. As I said, I don't hate the selection of Hightower in a vacuum.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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So how do you get respect? By giving more speeches, or by actually going out and making plays? What does Hightower's leadership do to remedy the problems that McCourty and Arrington have on the outside? I for one don't event think Hightower's skill set is one that the Pats would want on the field in crunch time when they're trying to hold a lead. Hightower is a big body who can run in a straight line and hold the point of attack, but he's nowhere near as fluid or as explosive as Mayo. Just look at the combine numbers for a comparison.

Mayo: 4.56 40, 4.29 ss, 7.32 3 cone, 40.5" vert. 9'5" broad
Hightower: 4.64 40, 4.64 ss, 7.55 3 cone, 32" vert. 9'9" broad

Just by watching him you can see that he's not as good of an athlete in pads as his combine #'s indicate either. Listen I don't think he'll be a bad player for us, and he might even make some pro bowls down the line, but as it stands a thumper ILB who can bump down and be a mediocre edge rusher isn't what would have helped the most.
And if we had picked up and reached some second round DB you guys would be crying over how we never address the pass rush. Give BB credit for going for some players in the draft we normally sit back and get taken. I'm tired of getting second tier god damn DBs, reaching for safety isn't going to help our safety issue with Barron off the boards, and I sure as well would of been skeptical of getting Jenkins that early in the draft as well. Just say who you would of picked up over him at this point. What are these imaginary corners that were just going to come in and be shut down guys for us to help stop the pass?
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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I just don't like Hightower that much as a prospect for us. I haven't for a couple years now. I love C. Jones, but I don't have to like everything the Pats do, and Hightower doesn't do it for me. I'm ok with it, and am nowhere near jumping off the ship, but I think there were numerous options we could have gone with there that would do more to actually change our defense.

I'm excited to see our unit on the goal line now with Hightower and Jones, but it's the stuff that is going to happen in the middle there that concerns me.

I don't have anything against Razor or you guys, but I think it's pretty misguided to say that leadership is the reason why our defense sucks. Everybody works hard, they play with passion, but the problem is that some of the guys just suck. I don't think there is theoretically any amount of leadership that will solve that.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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I love Hightower. Sure, maybe it wasn't the most pressing need if he's just going to play ILB. But I think he's going to do a lot more than that. How does he improve the defense?

Well let's see. Last year in the playoffs we had Jeff Tarpinian, Tracy White, and Niko Koutivides playing significant minutes at LB. Yeah I'd say there's lots of room for improvement there and Hightower is a huge upgrade over that.

Another way to look at is is like this. In the championship years the Pats basically had THREE starting ILB's in Bruschi, Johnson and Pfifer. Right now all they have is Mayo and Spikes, and Spikes can't stay healthy. They also basically had THREE starting OLB's in McGinest, Vrabel and Colvin. Right now they have Ninkovich and nothing else (unless you count Cunningham and who knows if he will return to promising form). I mean I just don't get the argument that there's no room for improvement in this group of LB's.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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And if we had picked up and reached some second round DB you guys would be crying over how we never address the pass rush. Give BB credit for going for some players in the draft we normally sit back and get taken.
Hightower doesn't help with the pass rush. As far as Jones goes, done, on my part.


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What are these imaginary corners that were just going to come in and be shut down guys for us to help stop the pass?
Outside of Jenkins, they don't exist. But I would rather see an attempt to solve a problem be made rather than trying to supplement something that isn't a weakness(and might make us even MORE vulnerable against the pass if we plan on playing Spikes and Hightower together). You've also contradicted yourself. We're supposed to give credit for trying making an attempt to solve the pass rush issue and generally be more aggressive but ignore it when we decide to do nothing about pass defense? Bit of a double standard? I know, we suck at drafting defensive backs...but that's the issue. We should be better at it. It's not really excusable that we're as poor as we are.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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Almost time for round 2.

Tonight I want a big DL (Still, Worthy, Thompson), a DB (Boykin, Hayward, Taylor), and possibly another pass rusher type (Curry, Branch). I'd also love to come away with a WR in this draft. This is as deep a WR class as I've ever seen and it would be a shame to miss out on them entirely.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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I love that they got Jones. We needed a pass rusher, but hell we could have gone for another true pass rusher instead a jack of all trades master of none MLB/nickel rush guy like Hightower.

I'm happy with the draft so far, but they could have done better than Hightower. It's as simple as that for me
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:52 PM    (permalink
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So was Brandon Spikes. I've yet to see someone come up with a logically refutation of the leadership arguments Cmarq and I have made other than "jesus stop being negative".

Brandon Spikes was not as lauded for his leadership intangibles as Hightower was. Stop saying that, the comparison is more of a stretch in that department than your giving him credit for. We got Spikes in what the third, fourth round?

Again, we've been talking about team culture and chemistry. You can't run a 4.4 in that, or pick off X number of negative thoughts on the sideline. It's not a plug and play kind of thing. It's a bonus that Hightower is supposedly a good locker room guy, but that stuff isn't binary. You have to build that kind of thing.

I don't disagree but you are the one just assuming it wont happen despite him being praised for these types of things. You two are the ones arguing against the conventional take on this, not us so if youre going to just assume it wont happen, let us just assume it may because again youre bashing him for his negatives and then assuming his positives wont work out. It's just not being objective like you say you are trying to be, youre being overtly critical for the sake of being overtly critical.
Honestly, I think we would have been better off staying put and seeing how the board broke. Not that what we gave up was too bad given our roster spot situation. Trading down should be met with skepticism, but considering the price we paid for Jones I really wouldn't have minded there(assuming we could have. We do it so often here that it's easy to forget that not everyone is willing to deal up for your pick 100% of the time). It's not really much about who else we could have taken(although I would have preferred to land Harrison Smith directly, even though it also would have been a reach), it's more about how much Hightower helps us vs. how much we paid for it. As I said, I don't hate the selection of Hightower in a vacuum.
So reaching for Smith would have been a better idea than taking Hightower? That would have been way more of a reach then what we ended up with. No thank you on that one. And seriously how much we paid for it, a fourth round pick is not alot to give up to move up and grab a guy we like. We gave up a third and a fourth for tow guys we wanted, stop acting like that is some huge and steep price to pay when every other year we have like a hundred picks in those rounds anyway. I have already given you that it may not have been the best pick or the sexiest pick but god damn reaching for smith, or continuing to say it wasn't about who we pick, because if you keep saying we should of went else where with it and not back up that reasoning my head will explode. Come out and say it, don't just keep saying these imaginary players would have been better, just say who you think we should of picked.

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I love that they got Jones. We needed a pass rusher, but hell we could have gone for another true pass rusher instead a jack of all trades master of none MLB/nickel rush guy like Hightower.

I'm happy with the draft so far, but they could have done better than Hightower. It's as simple as that for me
And again with the "we could of done better but I wont say specifically who". The both of you need to stop with that argument until you start trowing in who would of been better, because it's really irritating and is a weak argument until you start backing it up. What player (and you specifically have said hightower is bad because he wont help with the pass) was there that was going to help in that area? Did you want to reach for Smith as well? Jenkins? Taylor? Who?
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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Ok fine then

Jenkins
Smith
Zeitler
Hill
Kendricks,
Trade down for a David or Wagner type who all fit the profile of a the type of LBer we need
Mercilus

I'm not bitching for the sake of bitching, I just don't like Hightower for us.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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Brandon Spikes was not as lauded for his leadership intangibles as Hightower was. Stop saying that, the comparison is more of a stretch in that department than your giving him credit for. We got Spikes in what the third, fourth round?
Pure revisionist history. I'm just going to tell it straight. We got Spikes in the second round(which was a reach). The reason he even went that high was because of supposed intangible value. I've cited several things in a previous post and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Also, I'm not reading anywhere that Hightower is this SUPER LEADER that everyone else is making him out to be(and as I've mentioned, I would be skeptical as all hell about them due to the realities of those things translating). I'm hearing similar things that I've heard about a lot of guys we've brought in.


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I don't disagree but you are the one just assuming it wont happen despite him being praised for these types of things. You two are the ones arguing against the conventional take on this, not us so if youre going to just assume it wont happen, let us just assume it may because again youre bashing him for his negatives and then assuming his positives wont work out. It's just not being objective like you say you are trying to be, youre being overtly critical for the sake of being overtly critical.
I'm not assuming he won't be a leader. I'm questioning the validity of those things working out. I've tried to establish that there's a mixed track record with that and I really feel like I've presented enough to do that. If it was something else other than leadership, I would buy it. I've stated my thoughts on that before. I resent you trying to make it out like my thoughts on the matter to "being overtly critical for the sake of being overtly critical". Point blank, that's how I feel about leadership. It's not a matter of convenience to be critical. Next thing you're going to be calling me a "hater" :/

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So reaching for Smith would have been a better idea than taking Hightower? That would have been way more of a reach then what we ended up with. No thank you on that one. And seriously how much we paid for it, a fourth round pick is not alot to give up to move up and grab a guy we like. We gave up a third and a fourth for tow guys we wanted, stop acting like that is some huge and steep price to pay when every other year we have like a hundred picks in those rounds anyway. I have already given you that it may not have been the best pick or the sexiest pick but god damn reaching for smith, or continuing to say it wasn't about who we pick, because if you keep saying we should of went else where with it. Well come out and say it then don't just keep saying these imaginary players would have been better, just say who you think we should of picked.
Not saying that we gave up too much to move up. I don't agree with you about how much of a reach it would have been to take Smith at some point. In my mind, Hightower was a bit of a reach, for reasons previously stated. Never been a big fan. At the very least, I would have preferred a reach for a guy who helps us at a position of need.


...and if you really want to get into it, we can go down the "What's a reach?" road. Smith and Hightower both graded out as second round type picks to be(I was a bit lower on Hightower than most, a bit higher on Smith. Really impressed me in the Senior Bowl practices). There's very little difference between that type of player and the type of player you can pick up at the end of the first round.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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Respectfully, I think cmarq and EE are being a little short sighted. But the argument is in the end pointless. We'll see how it plays out in September.
I'm pretty happy. I think we're going to see a more aggressive, physical defense.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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I'm pretty happy. I think we're going to see a more aggressive, physical defense.
I'll believe aggressive when we see it. We hear we'll be playing a more aggressive defense nearly every year. Hightower might be a violent, aggressive linebacker but if we're getting burned(at the expense of Hightower, even), it's not going to get us out of off zone.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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Sorry, but I needed to cool off after what happened.

Why would anyone want to take JJ who has more documented problems than pretty much any other draft prospect that I can remember? The added negative bonus for NE would be that he'd be reunited with Hernandez and Spikes which could drag those two down to JJ's level. I'm sure BB doesn't want to take that risk. Harrison Smith is a reach in the first. I love Zeitler but really, that more of a luxury pick than Hightower. Hill is terrible and shouldn't ever have been mentioned as a first round possibility but forty times makes people forget about the tape. Kendricks is far from Hightower as a prospect and wrt. upside. Lastly, Mercilus is a one year wonder and BB doesn't draft those. Also, most of his pressure came from the inside, not from the edge. How is the team not better after drafting Hightower? I really don't get it and this just seems as though you're being negative for the sake of negativity. It's fair that you don't like Hightower for us but you can't argue that we're not a better team with him. Also, how many DBs are we going to draft and watch fail because we lack quality in the front seven? I'd much rather draft front seven guys at this point and see how that affects the defensive backfield. We've tried it the other way around and look what happened.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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Sorry, but I needed to cool off after what happened.

Why would anyone want to take JJ who has more documented problems than pretty much any other draft prospect that I can remember? The added negative bonus for NE would be that he'd be reunited with Hernandez and Spikes which could drag those two down to JJ's level. I'm sure BB doesn't want to take that risk. Harrison Smith is a reach in the first. I love Zeitler but really, that more of a luxury pick than Hightower. Hill is terrible and shouldn't ever have been mentioned as a first round possibility but forty times makes people forget about the tape. Kendricks is far from Hightower as a prospect and wrt. upside. Lastly, Mercilus is a one year wonder and BB doesn't draft those. Also, most of his pressure came from the inside, not from the edge. How is the team not better after drafting Hightower? I really don't get it and this just seems as though you're being negative for the sake of negativity. It's fair that you don't like Hightower for us but you can't argue that we're not a better team with him. Also, how many DBs are we going to draft and watch fail because we lack quality in the front seven? I'd much rather draft front seven guys at this point and see how that affects the defensive backfield. We've tried it the other way around and look what happened.
The front 7 wasn't really the problem last year though. In all honesty they were the strength of our defense (if we really had one) despite missing Carter, Spikes, Mayo, and Deaderick for significant stretches. I just don't think Hightower is a great prospect, and he didn't add enough value to our defensive unit to warrant his selection. I've always felt like he was a bit overrated.

I'm not going to argue with you about all those guys, but IMO they all do more to help us in the short and long term than Hightower does. The problem still is that we can't cover. You guys have blinders on if you think our failures in the secondary are all a direct result of our front 7 not being good enough. The pressure was decent last year, but McCourty, Ihedigbo, and Arrington were just brutal in coverage.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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We aren't magically going to fix the pass defense problems by reaching for players in those positions who aren't very good. We do it every god damn year and that is much more so of a problem for us then if we tried getting some pass rushers, which ironically every year all we hear is "Why are we ignoring our pass rushing problem" and now when BB finally changes things up and stops reaching and grabbing some B- DB in the early second late first we hear "How is pass rush going to help the pass?". The pass defense wasn't magically going to get fixed picking up Jenkins in the first. We picked a guy who fits the BB mold, and I will not complain about Mayo, Spikes and Hightower as our linebackers. Spikes played very very well at the end of last season imo, and that gets overshadowed by his inconsistent play before that point. Mayo obviously I agree is overrated and not a game changer like alot of people make him out to be. With that said I am perfectly content with that pick, and I really wish we wouldn't put this much hate into the pick until we start seeing Jenkins, or Smith start becoming elite players or Hightower just flat out busting. Let's wait until September to start this critique, I hated the Solder pick last year but that turned out pretty damn well for us, much quicker than I thought it would have too. No one is saying we can cover, but you seriously need to take the blinders off if you think that magically goes away with Smith or Jenkins. That is much more ridiculous and naive then saying that Hightower will help with leadership of the defense.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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The pressure was decent last year, but the two guys that accounted for a big majority of that pressure are no longer with the team.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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But the thing is that Hightower isn't very good. His production is meh, and he's limited athletically IMO. You can say we shouldn't reach for other guys, but I think some of the other guys you say are reaches are superior prospects to Hightower. Regardless, can't we all (with the exception of EE) just celebrate that we got Chandler Jones! We finally got a pass rusher with tools!
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Regardless, can't we all (with the exception of EE) just celebrate that we got Chandler Jones! We finally got a pass rusher with tools!
****, I'll celebrate that. Not my guy, but he's a guy. That's all I can ask for.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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But the thing is that Hightower isn't very good. His production is meh, and he's limited athletically IMO. You can say we shouldn't reach for other guys, but I think some of the other guys you say are reaches are superior prospects to Hightower. Regardless, can't we all (with the exception of EE) just celebrate that we got Chandler Jones! We finally got a pass rusher with tools!
I'm with you on that, I have high hopes for his future. I just think that you guys are being too critical on the Hightower pick. I don't love it (even tho I have just spent a lot of time defending it) but I think you guys are just being a tad ridiculous and not as objective as you think.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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Damn I was hoping for Branch.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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I'm with you on that, I have high hopes for his future. I just think that you guys are being too critical on the Hightower pick. I don't love it (even tho I have just spent a lot of time defending it) but I think you guys are just being a tad ridiculous and not as objective as you think.
That's fine with me, we'll have to see. Nothing would make me happier than if Hightower turned out to be like Willie McGinest. I just don't see it as of right now, but then again Hightower was never my guy. I think he'll help, but I don't think he's going to contribute in the same areas you guys think he will.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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Ouch, that one hurts. Wolfe and Jenkins were 2 guys I zeroed in on for the 2nd.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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Ouch, that one hurts. Wolfe and Jenkins were 2 guys I zeroed in on for the 2nd.
I liked Wolfe too(more towards the end of it), but Still wouldn't be a bad consolation prize if he were to fall like Mayock is saying he is now. Sounds like we might have a shot at a big body if that's the way we want to go.
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