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Old 02-19-2014, 08:48 AM    (permalink
weasel
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I thought the Suh to Cleveland for #4 and Josh Gordon was a great plan.
With four we get Clowney or Watkins and Gordon solves our problem at#2 WR. Thought that would at least get me a rep bump.
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by weasel View Post
I thought the Suh to Cleveland for #4 and Josh Gordon was a great plan.
With four we get Clowney or Watkins and Gordon solves our problem at#2 WR. Thought that would at least get me a rep bump.
Sign me up for that one! haha
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by detroit4life View Post
I think you need more for suh if the jets are able to get the #12 for Revis coming off a knee injury.

I'd be open to trading him but I'd want a lot more than that from him. Everyone on our defense gets worse the second we trade him. I truly think our best interest is keeping him.
A Revis deal is probably about fair, but I'd take a little less to free up the cap room. True shutdown CBs are more scarce than great DLs, even though I generally value a DL over a DB in a vaccuum.

Still, the deal we proposed wasn't that far off the Revis deal. A future 3rd and a this year 4th are valued the same. Streater and a high 2nd aren't too far off the 13th pick in the draft, especially with this being a great draft and last year being a weak one.
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
With a 19 million dollar cap hit for us, even if we trade him, it just isn't going to happen. Revis, I believe was going to be a FA when they traded him, a whole different story. Because of his cap #'s, no team would have the slightest interest in a trade.

Suh's contract was established by the old CBA and any team that acquires him will have to pay him accordingly. Teams locked down by too many players signed under the old CBA are going to have serious cap problems and are in reality, stuck with those players till they are FA's, that is the only time you could trade them and even then, I believe there is a maximum % of pay that you can decrease their salary by.
None of this makes much sense to me. First of all, Revis got huge money, just like Suh will. Revis might have gotten even more than Suh will at 16 per. Second, the old CBA has a minimal amount to do with it. Suh's value is what the market will pay him. He has leverage over us due to his huge cap hit this year, which is because of us restructuring and pushing money forward. A team trading for him will understand this and he can either sign for market value with them now or try to wait a year and get market value from a different team.

Also, saying we take a 19 million dollar cap hit by trading him is a bit disingenuos. We have a 22 million dollar cap hit for him now. A truer way to state it is that we save 3 million dollars by trading him,along with the entire amount next year and going forward. That 19 million dollar figure has literally nothing to do with whether we would move him or not.
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Old 02-19-2014, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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A Revis deal is probably about fair, but I'd take a little less to free up the cap room. True shutdown CBs are more scarce than great DLs, even though I generally value a DL over a DB in a vaccuum.

Still, the deal we proposed wasn't that far off the Revis deal. A future 3rd and a this year 4th are valued the same. Streater and a high 2nd aren't too far off the 13th pick in the draft, especially with this being a great draft and last year being a weak one.
I'd disagree that Streater and a high second is worth anywhere close to the 13th overall pick. That values Streater at a late 1st round pick.

I agree that the deal is obviously different due to different positions and value, but you also have to factor in the fact that Revis was coming off a season ending knee injury.

Personally I think the Jets robed Tampa blind with the deal, but I'd want a similar return for Suh if we were going to trade him. If we can't get that, we are better off keeping him.
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Old 02-19-2014, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by detroit4life View Post
I'd disagree that Streater and a high second is worth anywhere close to the 13th overall pick. That values Streater at a late 1st round pick.

I agree that the deal is obviously different due to different positions and value, but you also have to factor in the fact that Revis was coming off a season ending knee injury.

Personally I think the Jets robed Tampa blind with the deal, but I'd want a similar return for Suh if we were going to trade him. If we can't get that, we are better off keeping him.
Streater definitely isn't late 1st value, but when you factor in that the Bucs probably overpaid and this draft is deeper, I think you start to see why its pretty fair value for Suh.
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:43 AM    (permalink
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Dream all you want, he isn't going anywhere. Nobody is going to bail us out of our cap problems and take on Suh's salary. You can only cut Suh's salary by a certain % according to the CBA, anybody trading for Suh is going to have to pay him close to what his current salary is unless they can convince him to restructure.

Who here can guarantee that our defense won't collapse without Suh, he's at least double teamed on every play, and I don't believe for a second that we have enough talent on defense without him to ever be a winning team.

This draft is indeed a heck of a lot stronger than last years, the 20th pick this year would have been a top 10 pick last year and it is pretty deep through 3 or 4 rounds, probably the best draft of the last decade according to Mayock. Teams simply don't want to trade picks in a draft year like this one, picks are like pieces of gold.

Tampa Bay thought they had the pieces needed for a playoff run and sacrificed everything for a one time run, now they are likely in cap hell and I'm sure other teams noticed that they got nothing for their FA signings and the Revis trade. Teams aren't likely to repeat that mistake one year later.
All your going to get for Suh, is a 1st rounder and given his contract status, it might be only a 2nd rounder and little else. Given the strength of this year's draft, the pick will likely be for next year's draft.

If we get rid of Suh, it will be next year where a window of opportunity exists, not this year. DT's simply aren't worth the money you have to pay Suh currently.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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Dream all you want, he isn't going anywhere. Nobody is going to bail us out of our cap problems and take on Suh's salary. You can only cut Suh's salary by a certain % according to the CBA, anybody trading for Suh is going to have to pay him close to what his current salary is unless they can convince him to restructure.

Who here can guarantee that our defense won't collapse without Suh, he's at least double teamed on every play, and I don't believe for a second that we have enough talent on defense without him to ever be a winning team.

This draft is indeed a heck of a lot stronger than last years, the 20th pick this year would have been a top 10 pick last year and it is pretty deep through 3 or 4 rounds, probably the best draft of the last decade according to Mayock. Teams simply don't want to trade picks in a draft year like this one, picks are like pieces of gold.

Tampa Bay thought they had the pieces needed for a playoff run and sacrificed everything for a one time run, now they are likely in cap hell and I'm sure other teams noticed that they got nothing for their FA signings and the Revis trade. Teams aren't likely to repeat that mistake one year later.
All your going to get for Suh, is a 1st rounder and given his contract status, it might be only a 2nd rounder and little else. Given the strength of this year's draft, the pick will likely be for next year's draft.

If we get rid of Suh, it will be next year where a window of opportunity exists, not this year. DT's simply aren't worth the money you have to pay Suh currently.
I agree IAC and he won't be traded. But I do believe you are wrong on the money part because I think we would retain majority of that cap hit if we traded him due to the guaranteed money on the deal. Last time I checked the team that is trading the player retains that cap hit. Meaning the team taking on Suh would only have a minor cap hit and we would have about 18-19 mil on our books this year.

Please correct me if I am wrong. It's been a while since I really dove into the cap rules.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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Dream all you want, he isn't going anywhere. Nobody is going to bail us out of our cap problems and take on Suh's salary. You can only cut Suh's salary by a certain % according to the CBA, anybody trading for Suh is going to have to pay him close to what his current salary is unless they can convince him to restructure.

Who here can guarantee that our defense won't collapse without Suh, he's at least double teamed on every play, and I don't believe for a second that we have enough talent on defense without him to ever be a winning team.

This draft is indeed a heck of a lot stronger than last years, the 20th pick this year would have been a top 10 pick last year and it is pretty deep through 3 or 4 rounds, probably the best draft of the last decade according to Mayock. Teams simply don't want to trade picks in a draft year like this one, picks are like pieces of gold.

Tampa Bay thought they had the pieces needed for a playoff run and sacrificed everything for a one time run, now they are likely in cap hell and I'm sure other teams noticed that they got nothing for their FA signings and the Revis trade. Teams aren't likely to repeat that mistake one year later.
All your going to get for Suh, is a 1st rounder and given his contract status, it might be only a 2nd rounder and little else. Given the strength of this year's draft, the pick will likely be for next year's draft.

If we get rid of Suh, it will be next year where a window of opportunity exists, not this year. DT's simply aren't worth the money you have to pay Suh currently.
His current salary is 12 million dollars. His CAP HIT is 22.

I don't necessarily think we will trade him, but there is no argument to say that he has a lesser chance of being traded for value than Darrelle Revis. Revis was older, with a bigger salary, coming off of an ACL injury and went for a high first and a 3rd. Teams are always interested in elite players in their prime.

I'd make the move for a late 1st and a future pick or something like the value you mentioned.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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Suh is tradeable. It is unnecessary cap wise and dumb to do so IMO. An extension gives you more 2014 cap space. You lose a great player when it's not necessary. He's willing to sign long term here. The market value is what it is. Suh will get a big signing bonus (15-20 million) and they'll backload the salary while we deal with his 9.1 million in 2014 and 9.1 million of 2015 in restructure money. Money that is already in Suh's pocket by the way. Suh's giant cap number doesn't give him leverage because the Lions can trade him and now they can keep him on the 22 million number (thanks to the cap increase, plus could restrucutre Calvin or Quin and cut Harris if needed). The Lions aren't screwed because of his cap number and his cap number doesn't change his future market value. That's 12-13 million per year no matter what. The only thing it changes is how the Lions structure (backload base salary because of th restructure money).

The signing bonus is what makes Suh happy.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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If you were Cleveland would you give up #4 and Josh Gordon?
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/detroit-lions/cap-hit/2015/
Here's proof why it's unnecessary to trade Suh
107 million commited +8 million for this 2014 draft+extra 4 taking Suh from 13 million to 17 million(projected cap number in 2015). 119 million is 11 under the new 130 million new cap. 11 million to deal with Sim, Bell and Fairley and any free agents signed this year long term.

Plus Jones and Houston become cuttable in 2015. 6 million in space. Plus whatever cap you roll over from this year too. Usually around 1-2 millio.

Plenty of people you could restucutre too that wouldn't hurt badly in 2016 and beyond. Bush, Tulloch, Levy etc.

It is unnecessary to trade Suh unless he refuses to sign here long term. Which doesn't seem to be the case.

And then in 2016 Suh's restructure money is off the books so its only new deal money.
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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If you were Cleveland would you give up #4 and Josh Gordon?
I wouldn't give up either one, let alone both.
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Maybe This Year Mayhew View Post
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/detroit-lions/cap-hit/2015/
Here's proof why it's unnecessary to trade Suh
107 million commited +8 million for this 2014 draft+extra 4 taking Suh from 13 million to 17 million(projected cap number in 2015). 119 million is 11 under the new 130 million new cap. 11 million to deal with Sim, Bell and Fairley and any free agents signed this year long term.

Plus Jones and Houston become cuttable in 2015. 6 million in space. Plus whatever cap you roll over from this year too. Usually around 1-2 millio.

Plenty of people you could restucutre too that wouldn't hurt badly in 2016 and beyond. Bush, Tulloch, Levy etc.

It is unnecessary to trade Suh unless he refuses to sign here long term. Which doesn't seem to be the case.

And then in 2016 Suh's restructure money is off the books so its only new deal money.
With the extra 4 million in salary cap we got this year, we can keep Suh.

God bless Goodell and his ability to expand the pie. He earned every dollar of that 44 mil.
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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For Suh you wouldn't give up one or the other? Suh is one of the top defensive players in the game. You're not being honest with yourself. I feel we could get both.
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Old 02-20-2014, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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For Suh you wouldn't give up one or the other? Suh is one of the top defensive players in the game. You're not being honest with yourself. I feel we could get both.
The problem is that Cleveland is desperate for a franchise QB and that #4 pick is their ticket to finding one. That takes precedence over everything else at this point. This is a weird trade proposition because I don't believe either team would really feel it would benefit them. Sure getting the #4 pick and Gordon would probably make the Lions better but assuming it was just one of the two I'd say we'd be better off turning it down. It's extremely unlikely that we're able to find a player as good as Suh with the #4 pick and I honestly don't care very much about the cap space we'd save.
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Old 02-20-2014, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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There is no way the Browns would trade there #4 pick which is likely to be a franchise QB and there best player in Gordon for any DT as good as Suh is.
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Old 02-20-2014, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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For Suh you wouldn't give up one or the other? Suh is one of the top defensive players in the game. You're not being honest with yourself. I feel we could get both.
I honestly thought you were joking when you first posted it. Like I've said before, Suh is probably worth a Revis deal. With this being a deeper draft, I'd say that's a pick between 17 and 25 and either a 4th this year or a 3rd next year.

Obviously, that's not close to the #4 pick, so I'm going to rule that out immediately. As for Gordon, tough call. He has that potential suspension hanging over his head, but he also lead the league in receiving last year in 14 games with terrible QB play. You could probably argue that Gordon is also worth about a mid first and a mid rounder, so a swap might be pretty even. The only thing is, Gordon makes like 2 mil combined over the next 2 seasons where as Suh will cost them 25-30 mil in cap space over the same amount of time. They also have a very deep DL and no need for Suh.
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Old 02-20-2014, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fredder View Post
The problem is that Cleveland is desperate for a franchise QB and that #4 pick is their ticket to finding one. That takes precedence over everything else at this point. This is a weird trade proposition because I don't believe either team would really feel it would benefit them. Sure getting the #4 pick and Gordon would probably make the Lions better but assuming it was just one of the two I'd say we'd be better off turning it down. It's extremely unlikely that we're able to find a player as good as Suh with the #4 pick and I honestly don't care very much about the cap space we'd save.
What if you got say, Greg Hardy with that cap space?

just getting the pick would probably make us better. You'd have an incredible amount of options with 2 top 10 picks.
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Old 02-20-2014, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
What if you got say, Greg Hardy with that cap space?

just getting the pick would probably make us better. You'd have an incredible amount of options with 2 top 10 picks.
So you're saying that you expect the #4 pick in the draft to be better than Suh?

If we could guarantee that Greg Hardy was going to sign here I could see that trade being beneficial but I don't think signing a couple decent players with that cap space would make up for the loss of Suh. He's the centerpiece of our defense and makes the guys around him better.
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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So you're saying that you expect the #4 pick in the draft to be better than Suh?

If we could guarantee that Greg Hardy was going to sign here I could see that trade being beneficial but I don't think signing a couple decent players with that cap space would make up for the loss of Suh. He's the centerpiece of our defense and makes the guys around him better.
I think you could potentially find someone better than Suh at 4. I'm not guaranteeing though if that's what you're asking.

Obviously you can't guarantee Hardy either, but I think you could add quite a bit of talent with 20 mil in cap space. Even if part of it is just keeping our own guys going forward(Fairley,Ansah,Levy,Reiff,Warford,Waddle etc.)
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
I think you could potentially find someone better than Suh at 4. I'm not guaranteeing though if that's what you're asking.

Obviously you can't guarantee Hardy either, but I think you could add quite a bit of talent with 20 mil in cap space. Even if part of it is just keeping our own guys going forward(Fairley,Ansah,Levy,Reiff,Warford,Waddle etc.)
I'm saying that IMO Suh is better than the expected value of the #4 pick. Sure it's possible to find a better player but on average the player drafted there will be worse than Suh.

Trading Suh is only going to save just under $3 million of cap space this year as far as I know so it'll only leave us with about $10 million in cap space right now. It would save us a lot of money next year but his cap hit is only $13 million next year anyways. Unless we're positive that he's not going to resign here I don't see what we really gain by trading him.
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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I'm saying that IMO Suh is better than the expected value of the #4 pick. Sure it's possible to find a better player but on average the player drafted there will be worse than Suh.

Trading Suh is only going to save just under $3 million of cap space this year as far as I know so it'll only leave us with about $10 million in cap space right now. It would save us a lot of money next year but his cap hit is only $13 million next year anyways. Unless we're positive that he's not going to resign here I don't see what we really gain by trading him.
I get what you mean. So far, Lewand has done a masterful job with our cap space, so that helps a lot. I am not advocating trading Suh at all costs or anything, but giving him 100 million dollars at around 15 per scares me.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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15 million per for Suh would be extremely crazy. Most good DEs get 13 million per year. Suh right now is the top DT at 12 million per still (which was way more than most DTs for a long time). See franchise number at like 8 million for DTs. Atkins is close now with 11 million per. I'd say 13 million per is about right and the Lions can do that and fit most everyone even with the restructure money on top of that (making it 16 million per in cap number). Really it should be 11-12 million per for Suh but he is very productive and has an argument for DE money.

Lions will structure it properly, that I am not worried about. They will get cap relief in 2014 and not be in a bind in 2015 or 2016. Plus once the guaranteed base salaries and most of the signing bonus is allocated, the rest is just fluff. Stafford new deal in 2016 wouldn't surprise me. Same with Suh much later in his deal (2017 ish time frame).

The Lions will basically just change who they give the mid tier contracts. Right now it's Bush and Houston and Tulloch, but with age, that may change. Just like it did with Burleson (age) and Delmas (knees). Neither of those guys deserved their money so they got cut and will be replaced in free agency or draft. Suh deserves it right now.

5 years 65 million or 6 year 78 million. 20 signing bonus.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:46 AM    (permalink
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When a guy hits the open market or has leverage over the team, you can't say that 13 is reasonable but 15 is absurd IMO.

Again though, I'm fine with keeping him. I would understand trading him too though depending on how they planned to structure the roster
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