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Old 02-21-2014, 01:03 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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If you were Cleveland would you give up #4 and Josh Gordon?
Not in a million years, you are way overestimating Suh's worth. DT's are no longer a high priority item in a league where getting to the passer is all that counts. Cover CB's are a high priority which is why Tampa paid the price.
IMO, they couldn't get either by themselves for Suh unless they feel Gordon is a high character liability just waiting to bit them in the ass.
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:53 AM    (permalink
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I think every team in the league would give up a first round pick and more for Suh.
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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IAC I disagree, yes DT's who are run stuffers hold very little value, but a DT who consistently collapses the pocket and generates a pass rush because he is fast off the line is very valuable. The most common blitz now a days is the A gap blitz in order to collapse the pocket right onto the QB. Suh can do this on a consistent basis even with a double team. He frees up other guys every snap. He is the focal point of our rush everytime. A DT capable of that has a ton of value.

Now would anyone trade a 4th overall pick and gordon for him? absolutely not. With the new CBA top picks are near invaluable. Gordon is also a top 5 WR in the league, however he is 1 slip up away from ruining his entire career.
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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Yah, Suh's situation is complicated, but there's no need to diminish what he is as a player. The fact that he will get the kind of money we are about to give him and could get more on the open market tells you all you need to know about that subject.
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Old 02-21-2014, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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Not in a million years, you are way overestimating Suh's worth. DT's are no longer a high priority item in a league where getting to the passer is all that counts. Cover CB's are a high priority which is why Tampa paid the price.
I couldn't disagree more.

A great pass rush can make mediocre CBs look great. No matter how great your cornerbacks are, without a pass rush, they will be beat.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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When a guy hits the open market or has leverage over the team, you can't say that 13 is reasonable but 15 is absurd IMO.

Again though, I'm fine with keeping him. I would understand trading him too though depending on how they planned to structure the roster
About to hit the DT market. 13 is absurd for that market. 12 per which Suh got was absurd. Just because Suh got one crazy contract doesn't mean he deserves more than that. The DT market is still the judge for Suh. But that is what Suh will get 12-13 per.

15 per is not knowing the market. If he gets that I'll be very shocked and it will be very dumb.

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Old 02-21-2014, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Atkins 5 years 55 million
Ngata 5 years 60 million
11 million and 12 million per year. I understand the market perfectly
If you start at 12 and give him a half million dollars a year raise, you get 65 million for five years, that is an average of 13 million. You can bet jayZ will attempt to inflate the numbers by DE standards because the Lions have used him that way. Jimmy Graham is going to use that strategy.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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Atkins 5 years 55 million
Ngata 5 years 60 million
11 million and 12 million per year. I understand the market perfectly
If you start at 12 and give him a half million dollars a year raise, you get 65 million for five years, that is an average of 13 million. You can bet jayZ will attempt to inflate the numbers by DE standards because the Lions have used him that way. Jimmy Graham is going to use that strategy.
13 is DE standards and Jayz is not his agent yet. Jayz isn't the agent anyways just the face of that company. Suh is still picking his agent. Rocnation for marketing only so far. No way he gets 15 per.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Mayhew has said he thinks Suh will be signed before FA starts.

If we are looking to acquire more draft picks and move someone, we should look at Fairley for a combo of picks, highest would probably be a second rounder. Can't trust him to keep his weight under control and will need an extension soon, too. I think how he shows up to camp will be big in determining his future, if someone shows interest(team like the Raiders or Cowboys could use him), I say work something out.
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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Dallas and Cleveland should be our only trade partners. Never anyone else.
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Old 02-21-2014, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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Atkins 5 years 55 million
Ngata 5 years 60 million
11 million and 12 million per year. I understand the market perfectly
If you start at 12 and give him a half million dollars a year raise, you get 65 million for five years, that is an average of 13 million. You can bet jayZ will attempt to inflate the numbers by DE standards because the Lions have used him that way. Jimmy Graham is going to use that strategy.
Suh's argument will be that he's the best defensive lineman in the league - regardless of position, how the Lions have used him won't be an issue because we haven't put him at DE that much. That's actually one of my largest criticisms of our defensive scheme the last few years, we should use Suh the same way Seattle used Red Bryant.
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Old 02-22-2014, 04:01 AM    (permalink
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This theory of trading Suh only works if the team trading for him pays him what he wants, if that's 13-15 million per season there are very few if any teams that are going to pay that. No team is going to trade a first unless Suh and that team agree to an extension of his contract but it seems like people that want Suh traded either ignore this fact.

Trading away a first round pick for Suh only for him to walk (after the final year of his original contract) on the team that he is traded to isn't realistic to expect. Suh probably means much more to the Lions than he does to anybody else.
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Old 02-22-2014, 09:04 AM    (permalink
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You can assume the trade, if it were to happen, would be with an extension or a new contract signed. I do not advocate trading the best player on that defense unless Greg Hardy is available. But he is worth two firsts. Not only is he a starter, he's young, in his prime and elite. I am not a Suh fan either but I wouldn't trade him for less or the example of Gordon/#4.
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Old 02-22-2014, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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I would move him for Gordon and their late first. Or, for their 4 and a second and future picks in a somewhat realistic "must trade" scenario. Which again, I don't think will happen. Would rather move Fairley, if need be.
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Old 02-22-2014, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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IAC I disagree, yes DT's who are run stuffers hold very little value, but a DT who consistently collapses the pocket and generates a pass rush because he is fast off the line is very valuable. The most common blitz now a days is the A gap blitz in order to collapse the pocket right onto the QB. Suh can do this on a consistent basis even with a double team. He frees up other guys every snap. He is the focal point of our rush everytime. A DT capable of that has a ton of value.

Now would anyone trade a 4th overall pick and gordon for him? absolutely not. With the new CBA top picks are near invaluable. Gordon is also a top 5 WR in the league, however he is 1 slip up away from ruining his entire career.
I'm not saying Suh isn't a very decent player but how many sacks did he get? Collapsing the pocket is nice but in our conference, the QB's except for Minny, are pretty mobile and do well on the run. Collapsing the pocket won't scare Wilson or Kaep either. It will bother Peyton or Brady but how many times do we play them?

Being Detroit fans we tend to overestimate our own talent, every hometown fan does, DT's are considered a secondary position in today's passing league unless you are a 3 tech in a Cover 2 defense or a NT in a 3-4. Throw in Suh's salary demands and few teams would have any interest in acquiring him if they have to pay much in the way of talent. Sorry, but I don't see any hope of getting more than a 1st rounder for him and in this strong draft year, it won't be a top 10 pick.
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:35 AM    (permalink
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I hope we stop talking about this soon. Suh will not be traded. If he could be, I wouldn't take less than an established starter and a top ten pick and I'd still be getting cheated.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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I'm not saying Suh isn't a very decent player but how many sacks did he get? Collapsing the pocket is nice but in our conference, the QB's except for Minny, are pretty mobile and do well on the run. Collapsing the pocket won't scare Wilson or Kaep either. It will bother Peyton or Brady but how many times do we play them?

Being Detroit fans we tend to overestimate our own talent, every hometown fan does, DT's are considered a secondary position in today's passing league unless you are a 3 tech in a Cover 2 defense or a NT in a 3-4. Throw in Suh's salary demands and few teams would have any interest in acquiring him if they have to pay much in the way of talent. Sorry, but I don't see any hope of getting more than a 1st rounder for him and in this strong draft year, it won't be a top 10 pick.
I think its clear he won't be traded, but I really think you underestimate the value of a guy of his talents(and I'm not talking trade value). Sacks are overrated for Suh. I want him helping our DEs and LBs to make plays by flushing things outside , with the occasional sack sprinkled in. Not to mention he was by far the #1 reason we were a top 5 run D(with a record streak midseason).

The way teams are set up in the shotgun and pistol these days, they have no blindside and they have extra time to avoid pass rushing DEs. Teams are trying to get pressure up the middle via the blitz, pass rushing DTs or moving DEs to the interior on pass downs. I'll take quickly flushing Wilson/Kap out of the pocket all day over letting him sit back there 3 extra seconds and then rolling out on his own volition or running up the middle on you.

and ftr 3 tech in a cover 2 is basically what Suh has been. We haven't technically been a full on cover 2, but his role as DT has been the same as Warren Sapp in his heyday or Kevin Williams in Minnesota.

If Suh hit the market, he'd get a bare minimum of 12 million dollars per year. There is no need to estimate his value.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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I hope we stop talking about this soon. Suh will not be traded. If he could be, I wouldn't take less than an established starter and a top ten pick and I'd still be getting cheated.
To be fair, this is the opposite extreme.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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How about having a hypothetical trade thread?

I'm liking a few of these wide receivers. I'm getting comfortable with Mike Evans and Beckham Jr. I wouldn't mind a targeted trade up from our 2nd rounder if the right trade came up. Beckhams looked outstanding.
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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The NFL awards us two firsts if we franchise him and someone else signs him. So as a starting point he is worth two firsts. Will anyone pay that amount. Realistically, no. Not being worth a top ten pick isn't realistic either. He is worth that and more...and I really don't like him.
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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I really liked what I saw from Cooks. Fastest guy out there. And, I like Robert Herron, too. WR talk...
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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The NFL awards us two firsts if we franchise him and someone else signs him. So as a starting point he is worth two firsts. Will anyone pay that amount. Realistically, no. Not being worth a top ten pick isn't realistic either. He is worth that and more...and I really don't like him.
That is not a starting point. Have you seen that happen with any player in the last 10 years? Franchising him just means he either will be traded for a different price or wont' be traded at all. Guess what though, we can't franchise him or he'd cost upwards of 25 mil for one year.
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by weasel View Post
I really liked what I saw from Cooks. Fastest guy out there. And, I like Robert Herron, too. WR talk...
We have to get a couple of these WRs. This is an incredible group. Evans just put himself back in the conversation for our pick.
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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We have to get a couple of these WRs. This is an incredible group. Evans just put himself back in the conversation for our pick.
Evans intrigues me but I still think Ebron is a better option for us at #10.

If we are able to get Beckham, Cooks, or Richardson after the 1st round I think we have to jump at the chance. Even Mathews after his 4.4.

This WR group as a whole is so good and so deep. I really think it'd be foolish to take anyone but Watkins at #10. We can add a quality WR in the second and 3rd due to this depth.
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Old 02-23-2014, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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Donte Moncrief is the receiver I'm really liking in the second round. Excellent speed/size combo.
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