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Old 03-07-2014, 03:06 PM    (permalink
Nastradamus
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Originally Posted by detroit4life View Post
If Fauria can improve his blocking I do not see him as a gimmick. I think he can be a very good TE in this league. The receiving skills are there and the size is there, he just needs to be able to block better.

Williams was hidden on our IR with a simple hand injury for a reason. The man is a great blocker, to the point that people thought he could transition to OT at some point in his career. From a pure blocking standpoint, we are covered.

Now I like Ebron and wouldn't be upset with the pick, but my concern is the fact that high drafted TEs don't seem to provide the value to warrant their pick. NFL defenses seem to have evolved enough at this point to be capable of defending TE's like him and I think we are better served addressing other areas this high in the draft
A pure blocker is your 3rd TE though. We need either a combo threat or someone who can do a lot of damage as a receiver.

What receiving skills has Fauria shown? I've only seen jump balls. He seems extremely limited in his routes and hasn't shown me he can get any YAC. I hope he develops, but counting on him as a starter is silly.
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Old 03-07-2014, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Is he? He scored like 2 TDs in the final 8 games. Teams figured out his one trick and easily defended him from there on out.

I think you need to watch some Ebron tape. The kid is an explosive athlete
I've watched him and like I said he's a very good TE prospect. However, he's not the athletic freak that Vernon Davis was coming out and he's not as physically imposing as a guy like Graham or Gronkowski. Even if he ends up being as good as Vernon Davis that's a guy who's averaged 50 catches for 650 yards and 6.5 TDs per season for his career. I just don't like taking a TE in the top 10, especially when he's going to be our #2 option.

As for Fauria, yeah he fell off the pace he started at, although I would point out he also had a 2-point conversion in one of those games, but he's still a guy who demands attention in the red zone. Also I'm not sure how many redzone targets he even got in those last 8 games so it may have just been a lack of opportunities. There's always going to be value in a 6'7" guy who can high point a football.
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Old 03-07-2014, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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The colts used to favor multiple wrs and their main te usually in the slot or wide. The run quick pick crossing routes and stretch routes to isolate the te on one guy. His job is usually to stretch the field and put pressure on opposing safeties.

However...that was Tom Moore/Peyton Mannings offense... I've never seen a true Coldwell offense... hopefully it's not the type of offense that Baltimore had last year when they abandoned the run and overthrew the ball to nonimaginative route combinations.

Hopefully, we'll follow a Saints style offense that also favors isolating matchups and pressuring safeties. They liked to run the same play but in multiple looks last year, and attacked deep. Fauria can pull it off, but so can a free agent like Lance Moore and a decent rookie or two. We don't HAVE to have a dominant TE because the routes are the same in the old saints offense that our coordinator will hopefully bring... meaning that there's little blocking needed and that size/speed like Mike Evans will provide our Jimmy Graham.
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Old 03-08-2014, 01:21 AM    (permalink
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I've watched him and like I said he's a very good TE prospect. However, he's not the athletic freak that Vernon Davis was coming out and he's not as physically imposing as a guy like Graham or Gronkowski. Even if he ends up being as good as Vernon Davis that's a guy who's averaged 50 catches for 650 yards and 6.5 TDs per season for his career. I just don't like taking a TE in the top 10, especially when he's going to be our #2 option.

As for Fauria, yeah he fell off the pace he started at, although I would point out he also had a 2-point conversion in one of those games, but he's still a guy who demands attention in the red zone. Also I'm not sure how many redzone targets he even got in those last 8 games so it may have just been a lack of opportunities. There's always going to be value in a 6'7" guy who can high point a football.
Sure, there's some value in it, but it doesn't solve your starting TE problem. If you don't like Ebron though, so be it. That one just comes down to opinion.
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Old 03-08-2014, 03:14 AM    (permalink
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Is he? He scored like 2 TDs in the final 8 games. Teams figured out his one trick and easily defended him from there on out.

I think you need to watch some Ebron tape. The kid is an explosive athlete
I agree with both statements although another weapon on the outside might resurrect Fauria as a red zone threat. As for drafting a TE in the top 10, teams just don't want to draft TE's that high, they much prefer a WR in the top 10 over even the best of TE's. Most teams consider the TE position to be a secondary need, so if you could list all the TE's that have gone top 10, it might make it more believable that we would draft one, since Mayhew has never struck me as an innovator on draft day. Mind you, he took a big risk with Ansah, so whose to say.
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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Sure, there's some value in it, but it doesn't solve your starting TE problem. If you don't like Ebron though, so be it. That one just comes down to opinion.
When did I say I didn't like Ebron? I specifically said that I think he's a very good TE prospect. I just don't like the idea of drafting a TE in the top 10 because it's incredibly rare that they will put up production that's worth that draft slot. I don't see the value in drafting anything other than a true #1 offensive option in the top 10.
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Old 03-08-2014, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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When did I say I didn't like Ebron? I specifically said that I think he's a very good TE prospect. I just don't like the idea of drafting a TE in the top 10 because it's incredibly rare that they will put up production that's worth that draft slot. I don't see the value in drafting anything other than a true #1 offensive option in the top 10.
I meant like Ebron enough, my bad on the wording.
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:57 AM    (permalink
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I agree with both statements although another weapon on the outide might resurrect Fauria as a red zone threat. As for drafting a TE in the top 10, teams just don't want to draft TE's that high, they much prefer a WR in the top 10 over even the best of TE's. Most teams consider the TE position to be a secondary need, so if you could list all the TE's that have gone top 10, it might make it more believable that we would draft one, since Mayhew has never struck me as an innovator on draft day. Mind you, he took a big risk with Ansah, so whose to say.
Most teams underappreciate TEs, but thats to their own detriment. There is no more unique skillet position type in the NFL than a playmaking TE who can block.

Think of it this way, Ebron is essentially Mike Evans with the ability to play in the slot (which i wouldnt feel comfortable with Evans), next to the tackle and in the backfield.
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Old 03-09-2014, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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Except for having Evans' hands being twice as good, having a larger catch radius, and being the more dynamic threat. Ebron is nice, but he's a good receiver 'for a tight end' and Evans is just straight up the better receiver. If we want a scheme fit, then Evans is closer to Graham and Colston than Ebron. We need to think of the offense in Saints terms and not Patriots thinking.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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QB play and ball placement has a huge impact on drop percentage, as does play style. Ebron is catching more balls over middle than Evans.

And I disagree about who's the more dynamic threat. Pure athleticism is awesome, but versatility is just as important - Ebron will create more mismatches than Evans does because of how he is used.

We need to think of our offense as its own entity. The Saints offense was never Joe Lombardis offense, its Sean Paytons. Lombardi has already stressed his preference for well rounded TEs. Ebrons ability to help in the run game while simultaneously being a playmaker is huge.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Pettigrew ruined me to can't miss tight ends, but I suppose that I would have been similarly ruined to big wide receivers had it not been for Calvin. Another Mike Williams would doom us.
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Old 03-09-2014, 10:52 PM    (permalink
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Evans did not grade all that well on the metrics they used in the CBS article on 2014 WR's...I don't recall whether or not they were using Rotoworld metrics or what. The article came out just before the combine.
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Old 03-10-2014, 05:28 AM    (permalink
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Ebron is an A+ receiving TE, but at this stage of his career, he is a very average blocker, you aren't currently getting both if you draft him.

It is nice to compare him to Graham but NO's offense has always had 2, 1,000
yard receivers as well. If we then draft a WR in round 2 which I prefer over Evans and an OC in round 3, the draft is totally committed to offense and our defense will still have a very mediocre back 7 and not the greatest pass rush.
IMO, without Pettigrew, our running game will also suffer and our OL may be exposed as rather mediocre as well.

I repeat the question, if TE's are so important why don't I ever see one go top 10, In the last 5 years, TE's have been drafted 21, 21, 0, 20, and 30. Only 1 TE in the last decade has been drafted top 10, Vernon Davis and he ran a 4.35 40.
And how has Vernon Davis worked out. It took years for him to become productive and he isn't even a consistent All Pro.

I seriously doubt we will take the risk of wasting a top 10 pick in potentially one of the greatest drafts of all time on a TE, when it is pretty obvious that TE's are not considered a primary position on as football team. Drafting a TE is a luxury pick and Detroit isn't in the position to exclude drafting a primary position for a secondary position.
The draft averages less than 1 TE a draft, going even in round 1 over the last 5 years, which clearly shows teams don't generally use round 1 picks on them never mind in the top 10.

Mayhew isn't going to draft a TE, it makes zero football sense, Mayhew will look to strengthen a primary position on this football team. People who don't understand football and don't pay enough attention to the details of the draft will put Ebron forward, but there is nothing to suggest that TE's are worth taking in the top 19 picks never mind the top 10. Secondary positions are simply not drafted in the first half of the draft, teams look for primary positions to fill before ever even considering drafting a secondary position, only GM's, who don't stay around very long break these rules. Does anybody really think Mayhew wants to be a pace setter and try a new path, I don't. Ford is gone now and job security may have gone with it, he hired Mayhew, Mayhew will have to convince the new owner he can get the job done or he likely be fired himself if Caldwell flops.

We have Johnson already , Pettigrew is still a guaranteed 50+ receptions when healthy, Bush is a serious pass catching threat and if we get a top WR in round 2, surely that is enough weapons for Stafford for him to be successful, if it isn't, then he's not the QB who will take us anywhere.
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:15 AM    (permalink
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Drafting a player who is on the field for every play, hmmm, 3 down LB'er, DT, DE, OT, S, QB and CB. We need one of each. It sounds like the Lions are looking for a few pieces in FA: Alteraun and TJ. They have stated they are prioritizing Pettigrew.
Really, I'll just puke if they draft a corner at ten. They don't need a QB in the top ten. They don't need an OT ( Although, I'd argue that). They don't need a DT that high. RB is not a premier position. So what's left. Safety? LB'er? DE? WR and well, the BPA make sense.
Ebron just seems like a guy we'll be saying we drafted Gilbert and we could have had Ebron. 5 years from now everyone will be saying that.
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Old 03-10-2014, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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Drafting a player who is on the field for every play, hmmm, 3 down LB'er, DT, DE, OT, S, QB and CB. We need one of each. It sounds like the Lions are looking for a few pieces in FA: Alteraun and TJ. They have stated they are prioritizing Pettigrew.
Really, I'll just puke if they draft a corner at ten. They don't need a QB in the top ten. They don't need an OT ( Although, I'd argue that). They don't need a DT that high. RB is not a premier position. So what's left. Safety? LB'er? DE? WR and well, the BPA make sense.
Ebron just seems like a guy we'll be saying we drafted Gilbert and we could have had Ebron. 5 years from now everyone will be saying that.
Or, if Gilbert pans out, we could just as easily be saying thank g-d we passed on Ebron. I see by you list that you don't think an improvement at CB is a priority. I completely disagree, it's a priority position and right now we have just passable players at that position, nothing special in a game where passing the ball is a high priority. Get a top CB and your whole defense takes one huge step forward.
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Old 03-10-2014, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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IMO, without Pettigrew, our running game will also suffer and our OL may be exposed as rather mediocre as well.
You're aware that Pettigrew is rated as one of the worst run-blocking TEs in the league right? I don't think he was the secret to our OL's success last season.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Ebron is an A+ receiving TE, but at this stage of his career, he is a very average blocker, you aren't currently getting both if you draft him.

It is nice to compare him to Graham but NO's offense has always had 2, 1,000
yard receivers as well. If we then draft a WR in round 2 which I prefer over Evans and an OC in round 3, the draft is totally committed to offense and our defense will still have a very mediocre back 7 and not the greatest pass rush.
IMO, without Pettigrew, our running game will also suffer and our OL may be exposed as rather mediocre as well.

I repeat the question, if TE's are so important why don't I ever see one go top 10, In the last 5 years, TE's have been drafted 21, 21, 0, 20, and 30. Only 1 TE in the last decade has been drafted top 10, Vernon Davis and he ran a 4.35 40.
And how has Vernon Davis worked out. It took years for him to become productive and he isn't even a consistent All Pro.

I seriously doubt we will take the risk of wasting a top 10 pick in potentially one of the greatest drafts of all time on a TE, when it is pretty obvious that TE's are not considered a primary position on as football team. Drafting a TE is a luxury pick and Detroit isn't in the position to exclude drafting a primary position for a secondary position.
The draft averages less than 1 TE a draft, going even in round 1 over the last 5 years, which clearly shows teams don't generally use round 1 picks on them never mind in the top 10.

Mayhew isn't going to draft a TE, it makes zero football sense, Mayhew will look to strengthen a primary position on this football team. People who don't understand football and don't pay enough attention to the details of the draft will put Ebron forward, but there is nothing to suggest that TE's are worth taking in the top 19 picks never mind the top 10. Secondary positions are simply not drafted in the first half of the draft, teams look for primary positions to fill before ever even considering drafting a secondary position, only GM's, who don't stay around very long break these rules. Does anybody really think Mayhew wants to be a pace setter and try a new path, I don't. Ford is gone now and job security may have gone with it, he hired Mayhew, Mayhew will have to convince the new owner he can get the job done or he likely be fired himself if Caldwell flops.

We have Johnson already , Pettigrew is still a guaranteed 50+ receptions when healthy, Bush is a serious pass catching threat and if we get a top WR in round 2, surely that is enough weapons for Stafford for him to be successful, if it isn't, then he's not the QB who will take us anywhere.
Look, if they don't grade Ebron out as top 10, they certainly shouldn't reach. Your question about why they don't go there though, that proves why we SHOULD look at him. You know why TEs don't go top ten? Because one that is worthwhile in that area of the draft rarely comes along. When one does, you have to realize that its a rare opportunity to find such a player. Ebron is a much better prospect than a guy like Tyler Eifert or Coby Fleener. Gronkowski was arguably a better prospect, but his health was such a big question mark that it was hard to justify drafting him higher.

I think you're sleeping on Vernon Davis a bit too. He had a few maturity issues early on, but even with those early down seasons, he averages 50 catches a season at 13 ypc(very nice for a TE and he averaged 16 this year!). He has 2 different seasons where he has scored 13 TDs too, which is pretty rarified territory for a TE. He's also been one of the best blocking TEs in the league for most of his career(and I know Ebron isn't there yet).

- A couple more points. Pettigrew is a guaranteed 50 catches with a terrible ypc, yards per route and drop rate. That isn't very valuable and you should know that if you are gong to preach about what positions are valuable and why.

- as for TE not being a valuable position, you are probably right, but Ebron is more than a TE. He will line up wide a lot and would become our second best pass catching option. More importantly though, he's an extreme matchup problem and that has more value than just about anything in the NFL, no matter the era.

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Old 03-10-2014, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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Or, if Gilbert pans out, we could just as easily be saying thank g-d we passed on Ebron. I see by you list that you don't think an improvement at CB is a priority. I completely disagree, it's a priority position and right now we have just passable players at that position, nothing special in a game where passing the ball is a high priority. Get a top CB and your whole defense takes one huge step forward.
While I think Slay has the potential to be special(long arms, 4.34 speed, good play in top conference) I do agree with your premise here. CB is definitely a need and we need some big time talent in our secondary one way or another. Gilbert is not only a special physical talent, but he has a skill in terms of creating turnovers and turning them into points. That's been a big problem for our defense for years.
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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Look, if they don't grade Ebron out as top 10, they certainly shouldn't reach. Your question about why they don't go there though, that proves why we SHOULD look at him. You know why TEs don't go top ten? Because one that is worthwhile in that area of the draft rarely comes along. When one does, you have to realize that its a rare opportunity to find such a player. Ebron is a much better prospect than a guy like Tyler Eifert or Coby Fleener. Gronkowski was arguably a better prospect, but his health was such a big question mark that it was hard to justify drafting him higher.

I think you're sleeping on Vernon Davis a bit too. He had a few maturity issues early on, but even with those early down seasons, he averages 50 catches a season at 13 ypc(very nice for a TE and he averaged 16 this year!). He has 2 different seasons where he has scored 13 TDs too, which is pretty rarified territory for a TE. He's also been one of the best blocking TEs in the league for most of his career(and I know Ebron isn't there yet).

- A couple more points. Pettigrew is a guaranteed 50 catches with a terrible ypc, yards per route and drop rate. That isn't very valuable and you should know that if you are gong to preach about what positions are valuable and why.

- as for TE not being a valuable position, you are probably right, but Ebron is more than a TE. He will line up wide a lot and would become our second best pass catching option. More importantly though, he's an extreme matchup problem and that has more value than just about anything in the NFL, no matter the era.
Yeah, he's a better prospect than Fleener but Fleener was a 2nd round pick in a worse draft. Eifert went 21st in what was considered a terrible draft. I don't think Ebron is as rare of a TE prospect as you're making it seem. Again he's not in the same class as Vernon Davis, Jimmy Graham, or Gronkowski and, to me, those are the only guys I'd even consider at #10 in this class. I'm not sure if we're disagreeing on how good Ebron is, I say he's very good but not rare or elite, or just the general value of the TE position or both.

There's no doubt that Ebron would be a nice weapon to have but I think our offense will be very good with just a solid #2 option, probably one we target in the 2nd or 3rd round. It's not as if our offense wasn't good last year and that was with Durham and Ross playing WR for us and Pettigrew averaging 10 ypc.
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Old 03-10-2014, 09:54 PM    (permalink
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Old 03-11-2014, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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How would you guys feel if we traded Nick Fairley for a 2nd round pick, traded down a few spots to pick up an extra third and got Aaron Donald? Based on what I've seen he's a game changing monster! Cant imagine what he'd do next to Suh. Here would be my dream if the above scenario happened plus we got one of the top safeties in FA:

1st. Aaron Donald
2nd. Jordan Matthews or Donte Moncrief
2nd. Kyle Van Noy
3rd. Christian Jones
3rd. Jared Abbrederis
4th. Bryan Stork
4th(comp.).Aaron Lynch
6th. Chris Boswell
7th. Colt Lyerla
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Old 03-11-2014, 08:24 AM    (permalink
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Old 03-11-2014, 08:45 AM    (permalink
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The odds of both Farley being traded and trading down in the 1st round is very very low. I dont think there is anyone at 10 that teams will wanna trade up to get. The trades this year will happen in the top 8 for Clowney or a QB.

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How would you guys feel if we traded Nick Fairley for a 2nd round pick, traded down a few spots to pick up an extra third and got Aaron Donald? Based on what I've seen he's a game changing monster! Cant imagine what he'd do next to Suh. Here would be my dream if the above scenario happened plus we got one of the top safeties in FA:

1st. Aaron Donald
2nd. Jordan Matthews or Donte Moncrief
2nd. Kyle Van Noy
3rd. Christian Jones
3rd. Jared Abbrederis
4th. Bryan Stork
4th(comp.).Aaron Lynch
6th. Chris Boswell
7th. Colt Lyerla
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Old 03-11-2014, 10:17 AM    (permalink
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I would love to move Fairley for a 2nd though. I think Suh,Moseley and Jones would make for a very nice DT rotation. Draft a Caraun Reid or Anthony Johnson in the middle rounds.
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Old 03-11-2014, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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Is it just a general consensus here that Fairley was a bad pick? It seems like everybody hates him and wants to get rid of him. I seem to be in the minority that doesn't think trading him for a 2nd rounder would be a good idea. The guy has All-Pro talent if he puts it together for a full season. I can understand somebody saying that's a big "if" but I don't think you can expect to find a better player in the 2nd round.
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