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Old 03-11-2014, 11:08 AM    (permalink
weasel
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Deepest draft in years and the Lions are going to trade up for Sammy Watkins.
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Old 03-11-2014, 11:24 AM    (permalink
detroit4life
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Is it just a general consensus here that Fairley was a bad pick? It seems like everybody hates him and wants to get rid of him. I seem to be in the minority that doesn't think trading him for a 2nd rounder would be a good idea. The guy has All-Pro talent if he puts it together for a full season. I can understand somebody saying that's a big "if" but I don't think you can expect to find a better player in the 2nd round.
I think at this point we need to keep him in hopes that he can put it all together. There is no doubt that if he plays to his ability he is a terrorizing force next to Suh. However his injury history concerns me and I actually think Sapp has a good point about his legs. I do not have any comfort extending him to a long term deal so due to that I think he will not be a lion long.

I don't think it was a terrible pick, however I think it was a luxury pick taking him right after Suh exploded on the scene. But that only proves Mayhews philosophy of BPA and that he will not draft for need.
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Old 03-11-2014, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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Deepest draft in years and the Lions are going to trade up for Sammy Watkins.
We won't do it. It's got to be a smoke screen. Mayhew has never publicized his interest in years past when it came to the draft and I don't see why this would be any different. Yes we scouted him heavily and obviously have interest, but there is a huge difference between that and being willing to trade a ton of picks to get him. To surrender our 1st, 2nd, and either a future pick or our 3rd this year for a guy to be the 2nd best WR on your team is ludicrous. Especially on a team that is already very top heavy.
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Old 03-11-2014, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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I think at this point we need to keep him in hopes that he can put it all together. There is no doubt that if he plays to his ability he is a terrorizing force next to Suh. However his injury history concerns me and I actually think Sapp has a good point about his legs. I do not have any comfort extending him to a long term deal so due to that I think he will not be a lion long.

I don't think it was a terrible pick, however I think it was a luxury pick taking him right after Suh exploded on the scene. But that only proves Mayhews philosophy of BPA and that he will not draft for need.
Yeah, I can see what you're saying. At least they can be expected to be on the field at the same time so it's not that much of a luxury pick, like it would be for the Rams to take Clowney. Looking back over that draft Robert Quinn is really the only guy that I look at and think "I really wish we had taken him instead of Fairley". The rest of the guys that we could have reasonably taken in that spot wouldn't make us much better and IMO don't have the upside that Fairley has.

I really like the fact that Fairley is in a contract year this year. He has huge incentives to play hard this season. If he doesn't play up to his potential we can either let him go or possibly sign him for a more reasonable price. If he does play up to his potential then we just got top tier DT play for $3 million and if we don't feel comfortable signing him long term we can look to franchise tag him. At that point we can hope for another big year from him or look to trade him when his value is higher.

In no way do I see trading him now for a 2nd round pick being a good idea.
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Old 03-11-2014, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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Yes, bad idea, i concur.
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Old 03-11-2014, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fredder View Post
Is it just a general consensus here that Fairley was a bad pick? It seems like everybody hates him and wants to get rid of him. I seem to be in the minority that doesn't think trading him for a 2nd rounder would be a good idea. The guy has All-Pro talent if he puts it together for a full season. I can understand somebody saying that's a big "if" but I don't think you can expect to find a better player in the 2nd round.
Hate or him being a bad pick has nothing to do with it. His work ethic and off field issues haven't necessarily helped though. Especially when there was all this talk that he was in the best shape ever last year and he showed up looking like a tub of lard.

The main thing in this is, we are going to pay Suh huge money and I don't think you can pay 2 DTs big contracts. I also think Mosley is a very nice DT so we have the depth to do it. Now is the time to cash in, as his value with one year left on his deal(which is a more highly paid year as well) will diminish quite a bit, unless he puts up a DPOY type year.
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Old 03-11-2014, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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I think at this point we need to keep him in hopes that he can put it all together. There is no doubt that if he plays to his ability he is a terrorizing force next to Suh. However his injury history concerns me and I actually think Sapp has a good point about his legs. I do not have any comfort extending him to a long term deal so due to that I think he will not be a lion long.

I don't think it was a terrible pick, however I think it was a luxury pick taking him right after Suh exploded on the scene. But that only proves Mayhews philosophy of BPA and that he will not draft for need.
Too bad he didn't see Quinn as BPA though :(
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Old 03-11-2014, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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Hate or him being a bad pick has nothing to do with it. His work ethic and off field issues haven't necessarily helped though. Especially when there was all this talk that he was in the best shape ever last year and he showed up looking like a tub of lard.

The main thing in this is, we are going to pay Suh huge money and I don't think you can pay 2 DTs big contracts. I also think Mosley is a very nice DT so we have the depth to do it. Now is the time to cash in, as his value with one year left on his deal(which is a more highly paid year as well) will diminish quite a bit, unless he puts up a DPOY type year.
I strongly disagree with the basic statement "you can't pay 2 DTs big contracts". If they're both elite DTs I think you absolutely can afford to pay them both big money. In a 4-3 they're both able to be on the field at the same time. Would you be against paying a DT and DE big contracts? If so, can you explain how that's different?

For the record I don't think that Fairley is an elite DT so if he asks for that kind of contract I obviously don't think we should give it to him. The comment above was more about the theoretical situation of having 2 elite DTs as opposed to our situation. If Fairley was Gerald McCoy for example, I'd be fine giving him a big contract as well.
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Old 03-11-2014, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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I strongly disagree with the basic statement "you can't pay 2 DTs big contracts". If they're both elite DTs I think you absolutely can afford to pay them both big money. In a 4-3 they're both able to be on the field at the same time. Would you be against paying a DT and DE big contracts? If so, can you explain how that's different?

For the record I don't think that Fairley is an elite DT so if he asks for that kind of contract I obviously don't think we should give it to him. The comment above was more about the theoretical situation of having 2 elite DTs as opposed to our situation. If Fairley was Gerald McCoy for example, I'd be fine giving him a big contract as well.
I think he'll get 6-7 mil per, not Suh money or anything. I don't think DT is valuable enough or scarce enough to invest that heavily in myself. Especially when one of them comes with such huge risks. A 2nd round pick in this draft would be really valuable and you'd open up another 2 mil or so in this year cap space. That could be Lance Moore or something.
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Old 03-11-2014, 11:18 PM    (permalink
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I strongly disagree with the basic statement "you can't pay 2 DTs big contracts". If they're both elite DTs I think you absolutely can afford to pay them both big money. In a 4-3 they're both able to be on the field at the same time. Would you be against paying a DT and DE big contracts? If so, can you explain how that's different?

For the record I don't think that Fairley is an elite DT so if he asks for that kind of contract I obviously don't think we should give it to him. The comment above was more about the theoretical situation of having 2 elite DTs as opposed to our situation. If Fairley was Gerald McCoy for example, I'd be fine giving him a big contract as well.
I think DT's value has diminished over the years as the league moved in the direction of the pass 2/3 of the time and more on some teams. DE's make almost 31/2 million dollars more on average than a DT and DT salaries have fallen behind every position on defense except Safeties. Paying one DT and one DE huge dollars make much more sense in today's football than paying 2 DT's huge money.
In this great draft, if the Lions could get a 2nd rounder for Fairley, I'm not sure I would oppose it.
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:07 AM    (permalink
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If you can get a second, preferably one in the top half of the 2nd I would do it. I don't think we can get that though. Not with his injuries, his inconsistency, and his pending free agency.

But yes if you can turn him into a young quality player that you have control on a rookie deal for 4 years, I'd jump at the opportunity.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:52 AM    (permalink
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I say we trade Fairley to one of the contenders for their first. Any one of those teams could use him and he is better than anyone they could draft there. That would put us in play for 3 of the top 45.

Here's another, Mikel LeShoure, Nick Fairley and our tenth overall for St Louis' #2 overall.
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Old 03-13-2014, 02:14 AM    (permalink
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Personally, I can't see anyone giving up a 1st for Fairly, but he has enough potential and has the production that I could see a team like the Raiders or Cowboys trading their 2nd for him. I could also see a team trade up to 10 for one of the LT's. With the signing of Golden Tate the need for a 3rd receiver is no longer there. As much as I love Abbrederis and want him here, replace him with a safety like Dion Bailey in the 3rd of my mock draft.
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Old 03-13-2014, 03:03 AM    (permalink
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I think the need for a 2nd receiver is no longer there. I don't see anyone on this roster that I would like being our 3rd WR, especially if we don't have a consistent threat at TE. As of right now, we only have 2 viable receiving options outside of our RBs, for the amount that we like to throw the ball, that simply is not enough. We need 1 more WR at some point in the draft to develop and hopefully earn the 3rd WR spot.

I don't see anyone trading a 1st for Fairly. Maybe a 2nd but considering he is due for a raise pretty soon and he is already in the later years of his rookie contract, I'd think most teams would preference a cheaper and longer term DT solution. There's no doubt in my mind that if we deal Fairly we'd be dealing him at a discount. We are better off keeping him and hoping that he has a great year knowing that a contract extension talks are coming soon.

I am interested in what we do with Leshoure. I have to think he will be part of a draft day deal, I can't see him going into next year on this team but at the same time, there is no reason to cut a young talent just because there is nowhere to play him. I can't imagine we get anything more than a 4th for him but maybe we can include him in a package to make a jump somewhere in the middle rounds of the draft.
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Old 03-13-2014, 08:08 AM    (permalink
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Our darkhorse is Ryan Broyles. He's running again and has a shot to be there to start the season. We don't need all of his old speed to return, but I'll take reliable hands out of the slot. I would love to draft someone else in the first 3 rounds but Tate's signing took a lot of pressure off.
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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I say we trade Fairley to one of the contenders for their first. Any one of those teams could use him and he is better than anyone they could draft there. That would put us in play for 3 of the top 45.

Here's another, Mikel LeShoure, Nick Fairley and our tenth overall for St Louis' #2 overall.
Your way overestimating the value of our players, the Rams have no intention of going past #6 in the draft where they can still get either Robinson or Mathews depending on how the draft plays out. Nobody will give up a first for Fairly who hasn't worked out that positively since he was drafted. A second is the most you are going to get for him and even that will be extremely hard to come by in this strong draft year.
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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Our darkhorse is Ryan Broyles. He's running again and has a shot to be there to start the season. We don't need all of his old speed to return, but I'll take reliable hands out of the slot. I would love to draft someone else in the first 3 rounds but Tate's signing took a lot of pressure off.
I disagree, the Tate signing solved little for this team IMO. We are a passing team that lives or dies through the air and a 3rd option at receiver is an absolute must. I still believe we will draft another WR in round 2. The round 2 WR's in this draft year would all have been first rounders in almost every other draft year in the last decade. The value there is tremendous and I'll be shocked if we don't take advantage of getting a 1st round talent in round 2. It will make our offense explosive if Stafford can deliver.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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I disagree, the Tate signing solved little for this team IMO. We are a passing team that lives or dies through the air and a 3rd option at receiver is an absolute must. I still believe we will draft another WR in round 2. The round 2 WR's in this draft year would all have been first rounders in almost every other draft year in the last decade. The value there is tremendous and I'll be shocked if we don't take advantage of getting a 1st round talent in round 2. It will make our offense explosive if Stafford can deliver.
Stating that little has been solved while acknowledging 1 of two holes at WR have been filled makes no sense. 50% of the problem has been solved by your logic.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by noondog View Post
Stating that little has been solved while acknowledging 1 of two holes at WR have been filled makes no sense. 50% of the problem has been solved by your logic.
Well between cutting Burleson and letting Pettigrew walk, by adding Tate we effectively have only made up for the production that we have lost, from a below average crop of weapons as is.

So I actually agree with IAC, the offense is not a finished product and we still need another weapon or possibly even 2. Broyles shouldn't be relied upon whatsoever, if he can play healthy and compete with a rookie for the 3rd spot great, but he has chronic knees and there is no reason to believe that will be resolved.

IAC's point is that we throw the ball more than most teams in the league, that is our identity and that is how we move the ball. Having 2 receiving weapons on a team that throws as much as we do will not get the job done. Look around at the elite passing offenses in the league, they all have numerous weapons, not just 2.

I fully expect a WR in round 2 or 3. I think TE may be a possibility as well if Niklas or ASJ are there but either or, we need another piece of this offense if we expect significant improvement over last year.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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I disagree, the Tate signing solved little for this team IMO. We are a passing team that lives or dies through the air and a 3rd option at receiver is an absolute must. I still believe we will draft another WR in round 2. The round 2 WR's in this draft year would all have been first rounders in almost every other draft year in the last decade. The value there is tremendous and I'll be shocked if we don't take advantage of getting a 1st round talent in round 2. It will make our offense explosive if Stafford can deliver.
He's just saying that it took the pressure off of us. It's still very likely that we take a WR in round 2 if the value is right. However, now if there's a run on WRs right before us in round 2 we don't have to take one out of need if we don't like any of the guys available. Also we don't need an immediate impact player at WR now that we have Tate. If the guy we draft struggles early, as can be expected for a rookie WR, we have Tate to take pressure off of Calvin. It's just a much better situation for us to put more of an emphasis on drafting for value than need. It's similar to how signing Chris Clemons would allow us to go through the draft without a desperate need at safety in the back of our minds.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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I guess I look at our options differently. I viewed pettigrew as a slightly above replacement player. His loss can be mitigated rather easily compared to other positions. Broyles/Ogletree/etc are replacement level types who we just need one to become a dependable option. I see Calvin and Tate as elite and dependable options. We just need reliable 3rd and 4th options which are way more common. I view it as the Edelman/Welker 'reverse world' theory. There are plenty of those guys out there.

I'm over Mike Evans now and am all aboard the Gilbert train. 2nd round is a good place to go BPA. Third round looks like a good time to address WR if we hadn't already or work on safety/center/linebacker/TE.
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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I say we trade Fairley to one of the contenders for their first. Any one of those teams could use him and he is better than anyone they could draft there. That would put us in play for 3 of the top 45.

Here's another, Mikel LeShoure, Nick Fairley and our tenth overall for St Louis' #2 overall.
He'd look very good in NE actually. Seattle too. I'd take 29 or 32 for him.
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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Your way overestimating the value of our players, the Rams have no intention of going past #6 in the draft where they can still get either Robinson or Mathews depending on how the draft plays out. Nobody will give up a first for Fairly who hasn't worked out that positively since he was drafted. A second is the most you are going to get for him and even that will be extremely hard to come by in this strong draft year.
PFF had him as a top 5 DT last year and he just turned 26. I think DL of that caliber are worth more than you'd think. His off field stuff does lower it a bit though.

The draft is strong, but after the top 3 DTs, there isn't anyone who compares to Fairley's potential. THose guys will be gone by the mid 20s. After that, I could see a team thinking about it.

I don't think St.Louis would want Leshoure, but would you rather have Robinson/Matthews or Lewan and Fairley? I think there is at least a conversation to be had there, no?
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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I disagree, the Tate signing solved little for this team IMO. We are a passing team that lives or dies through the air and a 3rd option at receiver is an absolute must. I still believe we will draft another WR in round 2. The round 2 WR's in this draft year would all have been first rounders in almost every other draft year in the last decade. The value there is tremendous and I'll be shocked if we don't take advantage of getting a 1st round talent in round 2. It will make our offense explosive if Stafford can deliver.
You can't say we are a passing team that desperately needs a 3rd WR and then say the 2nd WR solves little for us. That is 100% contradictory.

Now, if your point is that we still need a 3rd WR, after Tate, I fully agree. I want a possession type with some size and over the middle ability. Matthews or Abrederris preferred. I'd also be cool if they just signed someone like Robert Meachem(though he's a different style player)
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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I really hope none of Broyles,Durham or Ogletree ends up making the team, that's all I know. I can live with Durham as the 4th WR since he may have some rapport with STafford. I like Broyles, but don't see him being impactful this year after recovering from an achilles and already having major leg issues.
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