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Old 04-04-2014, 12:12 PM    (permalink
detroit4life
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Have to wonder if the Bucs will be keying in on Evans at #7 now with the trade of Mike Williams.

I will now finally say there is no chance Watkins falls to #10. Couldn't imagine him getting passed the bucs now.
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Old 04-04-2014, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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Yah, Bucs are more likely to take Evans, though Bills don't need a WR now.
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Old 04-04-2014, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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I would trade up for Clowney, Mack, or Watkins if it didn't cost me a future first.

But I would still have a hard time parting with our other picks. It ultimately depends on what we'd need to give up.
I'd give up the future first as long as I kept all my picks in this draft. Ideally for Mack/Clowney though.
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Old 04-04-2014, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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I suggested 10 and Fairley earlier in the draft season and a lot of people acted like I was crazy. I feel like that's a no brainer now, even if you throw in a future 2nd
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Old 04-04-2014, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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I suggested 10 and Fairley earlier in the draft season and a lot of people acted like I was crazy. I feel like that's a no brainer now, even if you throw in a future 2nd
Where are you looking to trade up to for Fairley and #10? I'm not sure Fairley would get us much value in return.

I'd be willing to give up a pretty significant amount of picks to get Clowney. I have a feeling that the Rams will be asking for a pretty high price for the #2 pick if he's still available. I'd have no problem paying a similar price that Atlanta did to trade up to get Julio Jones (1st, 2nd, 4th, future 1st and 4th). He's just that much better than everyone else in this draft class IMO.
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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Where are you looking to trade up to for Fairley and #10? I'm not sure Fairley would get us much value in return.

I'd be willing to give up a pretty significant amount of picks to get Clowney. I have a feeling that the Rams will be asking for a pretty high price for the #2 pick if he's still available. I'd have no problem paying a similar price that Atlanta did to trade up to get Julio Jones (1st, 2nd, 4th, future 1st and 4th). He's just that much better than everyone else in this draft class IMO.
I think that is what it will cost to move up for Clowney, and even then I doubt the Rams are willing to drop back as far as #10, they've got their sights set on Robinson or Matthews neither of which is likely to be there at #10. Even if they were, Detroit simply isn't in a position to give up that many picks even if you subtract the #4 pick in 2015 for Fairly.

The Rams are going to get that price from Cleveland so why would they trade all the way back to us. You might have to include a 3rd #1 pick in 2016 to secure that trade. #10 and Fairly won't get it done.
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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I think that is what it will cost to move up for Clowney, and even then I doubt the Rams are willing to drop back as far as #10, they've got their sights set on Robinson or Matthews neither of which is likely to be there at #10. Even if they were, Detroit simply isn't in a position to give up that many picks even if you subtract the #4 pick in 2015 for Fairly.

The Rams are going to get that price from Cleveland so why would they trade all the way back to us. You might have to include a 3rd #1 pick in 2016 to secure that trade. #10 and Fairly won't get it done.
I can definitely understand your point about the Rams not wanting to trade all the way back to #10. I'm sure in their perfect scenario they would trade back a few spots, pick up a decent haul of extra picks, and still get the guy they wanted to take at #2. However, I do believe that they would consider it if the return was large enough.

I'm not a big fan of the idea of us giving up a bunch of picks, I was down on the idea of trading up for Watkins, but I do believe that Clowney is a transcendent talent that would be worth it. We could definitely use the extra talent on our D-line, especially when we lose Fairley next season. I don't think we have any positions that we absolutely have to address in the draft so losing the picks won't kill us. We'll still have a 3rd and multiple 4ths this year, which should provide solid players given the depth of this draft. IMO Clowney's talent level, relative to the prospects we can expect to see at #10, more than makes up for the picks we'd be giving.

I'd be dumbfounded if the Browns were willing to give up that much to go from #4 to #2. If they actually are willing to do that then we can just ignore this whole idea and stay at #10. I get the idea that they'd like to have their choice of the available QBs but I don't think they like any of the guys enough to pay that price. I could obviously be wrong though.

My comment was just to mention how much I'd be willing to give up for Clowney. It's 100% possible that such a deal won't be available to us (Clowney could go #1, Rams might be asking for more picks, Rams might not want to drop all the way to #10). However, if I was making decisions for the Lions and the Rams contacted me with that deal I'd gladly accept it.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Where are you looking to trade up to for Fairley and #10? I'm not sure Fairley would get us much value in return.

I'd be willing to give up a pretty significant amount of picks to get Clowney. I have a feeling that the Rams will be asking for a pretty high price for the #2 pick if he's still available. I'd have no problem paying a similar price that Atlanta did to trade up to get Julio Jones (1st, 2nd, 4th, future 1st and 4th). He's just that much better than everyone else in this draft class IMO.
I'm not saying they'd do it, but I posed the question of whether people would trade 10 and Fairley if it got us Clowney earlier in the offseason. Most people said no and that it was too much to give.

I wouldn't give up a Julio Jones package. I'd rather try to get one from SF or Cle.

I generally believe Cleveland will move up to 2 for the QB of their choice, likely Manziel
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying they'd do it, but I posed the question of whether people would trade 10 and Fairley if it got us Clowney earlier in the offseason. Most people said no and that it was too much to give.

I wouldn't give up a Julio Jones package. I'd rather try to get one from SF or Cle.

I generally believe Cleveland will move up to 2 for the QB of their choice, likely Manziel
Really? I hope I wasn't one of those people lol

Does your apprehension towards giving up that package of picks stem from thinking it was a bad deal for Atlanta or is it because we aren't in "win-now" mode like Atlanta was? I certainly believe that Clowney, as a prospect, is more worthy of that kind of package than Jones was. I actually think that deal would end up pretty solidly in our favor.

I definitely think it's possible that Cleveland will look to move up but I seriously doubt they'd be willing to give up the "Julio Jones" package like IAC said. That would be highway robbery by the Rams in terms of the value they got back.

I honestly don't think it's impossible that the Rams would choose to trade down to #10 if we offered them substantially more than other teams did. In all likelihood they'd prefer to take a solid package of picks to just move down a couple spots but I have to imagine they'd be very tempted by the future 1st we were offering. It could be enough to give us the edge over a team like Cleveland. Obviously this is all very hypothetical though.
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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I mean, if there was a prospect to do it for, its Clowney. We are only coming from 10 to 2, not 26 to 5, so I would hope it wouldn't cost as much. DL is our strength, its a deep draft(increasing the value of each pick) and we need depth through our team more than one guy. I mean, I'd give up this year and next year's first or 10,Fairley and a future 2nd. I wouldn't go too crazy beyond that though.
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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Cleveland taking Weeden really screwed that deal up for them. If they end up with someone like Doug Martin,Reiff,H.Smith,Hightower,Decastro or Jenkins with that other 1st its a different story.
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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I mean, if there was a prospect to do it for, its Clowney. We are only coming from 10 to 2, not 26 to 5, so I would hope it wouldn't cost as much. DL is our strength, its a deep draft(increasing the value of each pick) and we need depth through our team more than one guy. I mean, I'd give up this year and next year's first or 10,Fairley and a future 2nd. I wouldn't go too crazy beyond that though.
It was 26 to 6 to be exact. If you go by the trade value chart going from 10 to 2 is bigger than 26 to 6.

I disagree about DL being our strength. Obviously, we have Suh and Ansah showed nice signs as a rookie but we also just lost Willie Young and it's very likely that we'll be losing Fairley next season. It's not as if we'd struggle to find a place for Clowney and he plays arguably the 2nd most valuable position on the field. He'd be a huge upgrade across from Ansah.

It's true that this draft is deep but that's probably balanced out by the fact that Clowney is far better than the average #2 overall pick. If you're going to give added value to the picks we're giving up you have to also give added value to the pick we're actually getting. This was also true in the Julio Jones and RG3 trades, where the price to move up was higher because of the caliber of player being traded up for.

The argument about depth is fair, it's actually the reason I don't want to trade up for Watkins, but I honestly think that Clowney is worth it. We would still have a 3rd and 2 4ths in a supposedly deep draft to find depth.
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Old 04-05-2014, 06:02 PM    (permalink
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I didn't mean that our DL couldn't use any upgrading, but I'm not sure its the spot we need to spend a boatload of picks on. I'm very conflicted on that one and I definitely don't think you're an idiot for liking the idea or anything. I LOVE Clowney as a prospect and if we got him, I'd probably be happy regardless of the price. That's slightly different(for me at least) than whether I'd be able to pull the trigger though.
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Old 04-06-2014, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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Taking clowney gives us instant depth at de and dt with Jason jones able to play both. Mosely is strictly a run defender. Taylor drops to 4th de. Less on Ansah and suhs shoulders too.
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Old 04-06-2014, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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I think if you draft Clowney or another top 3(in your rotation) DE, Jones gets cut. We are going to have to make another move to sign our draft class and leave room for emergency players still IIRC. It will either be cutting Jones/Sims, re-upping Suh or restructuring Calvin. Maybe a post June 1 cut of Houston.

Mosley is strictly a run stuffer for sure, but a very good one. I don't want Taylor any lower than 3rd on the DE depth chart personally.
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:34 PM    (permalink
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I think if you draft Clowney or another top 3(in your rotation) DE, Jones gets cut. We are going to have to make another move to sign our draft class and leave room for emergency players still IIRC. It will either be cutting Jones/Sims, re-upping Suh or restructuring Calvin. Maybe a post June 1 cut of Houston.

Mosley is strictly a run stuffer for sure, but a very good one. I don't want Taylor any lower than 3rd on the DE depth chart personally.
Draft class only count 2.5 million really. Either simple restructure or suh signing. Zero reason to cut jones if is healthy. Number 3 Dt easily if we get clowney
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Old 04-06-2014, 11:48 PM    (permalink
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Really? I hope I wasn't one of those people lol

Does your apprehension towards giving up that package of picks stem from thinking it was a bad deal for Atlanta or is it because we aren't in "win-now" mode like Atlanta was? I certainly believe that Clowney, as a prospect, is more worthy of that kind of package than Jones was. I actually think that deal would end up pretty solidly in our favor.

I definitely think it's possible that Cleveland will look to move up but I seriously doubt they'd be willing to give up the "Julio Jones" package like IAC said. That would be highway robbery by the Rams in terms of the value they got back.

I honestly don't think it's impossible that the Rams would choose to trade down to #10 if we offered them substantially more than other teams did. In all likelihood they'd prefer to take a solid package of picks to just move down a couple spots but I have to imagine they'd be very tempted by the future 1st we were offering. It could be enough to give us the edge over a team like Cleveland. Obviously this is all very hypothetical though.
It would really come down to who Houston takes as their QB with the #1 overall pick. If Cleveland really believes in a QB who is still there at #2, they'll pay the price, what we all think won't make a shred of difference. If they aren't excited by which QB is left, I doubt they try to trade up. I could then see the Rams trading with Atlanta for minimum of 3 first rounders for Clowney and in reality, I see zero possibility the Rams would trade back to us unless we offered even more than Washington paid for RG111. The trade chart says there is 1300 point differential between the #2 and #10 pick, that is pretty well 2 extra first rounders plus you'd have to pay a bonus for getting the Rams to move back that far, likely a 2nd rounder and a couple of 4th rounders, of course not all in this draft year.

I don't care how good Clowney is, there is some risk about his character and he could even flop or just be slightly above average. I just don't think the Lions are in a position to pay that kind of price. you'd be putting 100% of your chance for any real success on Clowney's shoulders and if he ever got injured, we'd be dead in the water and unable to rebuild for 3 more years.

In all my years of following the draft, 98% of the time, I've only seen teams pay that kind of price for a shot at a franchise QB, never for a position player. I really think it is just a pipe dream.
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Old 04-07-2014, 09:19 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Maybe This Year Mayhew View Post
Draft class only count 2.5 million really. Either simple restructure or suh signing. Zero reason to cut jones if is healthy. Number 3 Dt easily if we get clowney
Someone has to go in that rotation at that point if Fairley isn't in the trade. Mosley is a better player than Jones and more reliable in terms of healthy. He better complements our starters too. Tapp,Martin and Fluellen can fill out my rotation. I don't want to pay 3 mil for my 7th DL.
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Old 04-07-2014, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
It would really come down to who Houston takes as their QB with the #1 overall pick. If Cleveland really believes in a QB who is still there at #2, they'll pay the price, what we all think won't make a shred of difference. If they aren't excited by which QB is left, I doubt they try to trade up. I could then see the Rams trading with Atlanta for minimum of 3 first rounders for Clowney and in reality, I see zero possibility the Rams would trade back to us unless we offered even more than Washington paid for RG111. The trade chart says there is 1300 point differential between the #2 and #10 pick, that is pretty well 2 extra first rounders plus you'd have to pay a bonus for getting the Rams to move back that far, likely a 2nd rounder and a couple of 4th rounders, of course not all in this draft year.

I don't care how good Clowney is, there is some risk about his character and he could even flop or just be slightly above average. I just don't think the Lions are in a position to pay that kind of price. you'd be putting 100% of your chance for any real success on Clowney's shoulders and if he ever got injured, we'd be dead in the water and unable to rebuild for 3 more years.

In all my years of following the draft, 98% of the time, I've only seen teams pay that kind of price for a shot at a franchise QB, never for a position player. I really think it is just a pipe dream.
There are little to no character concerns IMO. Nobody who is actually around him or actually scouts him seems to feel this way. Listen to the way your boy Mayock talked about him after his pro day. I believe he used the phrase "most talent of all time for a DE prospect" or something along those lines.

Even if he doesn't have Kyle Vanden Bosch's motor, the kid is going to be a success. I don't know if I've ever had less doubt about a prospect. If Aldon Smith can get 15 sacks as an out of shape alcoholic, I'm scared to think what Clowney can do to this league. He could tear his ACL tomorrow and I still might trade up for him depending on the price.
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
Someone has to go in that rotation at that point if Fairley isn't in the trade. Mosley is a better player than Jones and more reliable in terms of healthy. He better complements our starters too. Tapp,Martin and Fluellen can fill out my rotation. I don't want to pay 3 mil for my 7th DL.
Jones would play DT and is better pass rushing DT than Mosely by far. Mosely is the better run stopper. Suh/Fairley get hurt, you plug in Jones.

And Jones was the starter last year over Young. He may beat out Taylor in that scenario. Jones will get his snaps, we'll just see if he can stay healthy.
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Old 04-07-2014, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Maybe This Year Mayhew View Post
Jones would play DT and is better pass rushing DT than Mosely by far. Mosely is the better run stopper. Suh/Fairley get hurt, you plug in Jones.

And Jones was the starter last year over Young. He may beat out Taylor in that scenario. Jones will get his snaps, we'll just see if he can stay healthy.
I'm aware of what Jones can do. I prefer a run stuffer in the #3 role behind Suh and Fairley, who excel in the pass rush. Jones could potentially beat out Taylor, but I think the difference would be negligible at best, not worth 3 mil.

Either way, if we keep Jones in that scenario, we cut Mosley. Someone is going.
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Old 04-07-2014, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
I'm aware of what Jones can do. I prefer a run stuffer in the #3 role behind Suh and Fairley, who excel in the pass rush. Jones could potentially beat out Taylor, but I think the difference would be negligible at best, not worth 3 mil.

Either way, if we keep Jones in that scenario, we cut Mosley. Someone is going.
We don't have to cut anybody to fit the draft class. We need pass rushing DT depth and Jones is our starting DE right now.
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Old 04-07-2014, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Maybe This Year Mayhew View Post
We don't have to cut anybody to fit the draft class. We need pass rushing DT depth and Jones is our starting DE right now.
I'm simply saying that there is a limit on what teams want to pay their backups, especially the farther and farther down you go on the depth chart. If they draft Clowney, one of those two won't make the opening game roster, unless someone ahead of them goes on IR
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Old 04-07-2014, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
I'm simply saying that there is a limit on what teams want to pay their backups, especially the farther and farther down you go on the depth chart. If they draft Clowney, one of those two won't make the opening game roster, unless someone ahead of them goes on IR
Why would we cut them if we don't have to. Bears just paid 3 million to Willie Young for depth (Allen and Houston). Not only is Jones good DE depth, he's DT depth. That's huge for a roster spot as you might not need Fluellen then and can fill the roster spot elswhere.
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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I don't think you can trade into the top 4. Proposing the idea of moving majority of our picks this year and future picks for 1 guy just isn't worth it. We have a very good team that is young and has elite talent. However we are not 1 guy away from getting to that elite level. This team has future needs and future cap concerns and it is ignorant to think that we can afford to give up the price required to get that high.

I do however, think that Mayhew will start working the phones heavily if Mack or Watkins make it to 5 or later. I think he will propose our 3rd and 4th or maybe our 2nd. Something along the lines of giving up decent value but not crippling the future of the team on a rookie who managed to disappear his junior year for whatever reason you want, that doesn't matter.

Someone may very well bite at that deal and before anyone says no chance. Realize a fair portion of the people in here was proposing we move down to #26 for a 3rd and a 4th. If the Raiders believe they can get their QB and more picks out of it, they may very well do it. They have an 80% chance of their 1st rounder being a bust anyway. Same goes for ATL if the top 2 OTs are gone along with Clowney. The Falcons roster is depleted of talent (mostly due to their trade for Julio). They could jump at the chance to move to #10, grab Lewan and some extra picks.
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