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Old 04-08-2014, 12:32 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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There are little to no character concerns IMO. Nobody who is actually around him or actually scouts him seems to feel this way. Listen to the way your boy Mayock talked about him after his pro day. I believe he used the phrase "most talent of all time for a DE prospect" or something along those lines.

Even if he doesn't have Kyle Vanden Bosch's motor, the kid is going to be a success. I don't know if I've ever had less doubt about a prospect. If Aldon Smith can get 15 sacks as an out of shape alcoholic, I'm scared to think what Clowney can do to this league. He could tear his ACL tomorrow and I still might trade up for him depending on the price.
I think you are forgetting that his college HC wasn't too kind in his description of Clowney. I not saying he isn't immensely talented but talent alone won't make you a great player, you need the intangibles to go along with talent to be great and there are definitely still some lingering doubts about Clowney's character.

If he was completely clean re: his character, with the immense talent he has, there would be zero talk about the top 3 drafting teams passing on him. You have to ask why this conversation about him not getting picked top 3 is even taking place, there should be no mention of him slipping to the 4-6 range. Character concerns can be the only reason such thoughts exist.

I don't get your saying "I don't know if I've ever had less doubt about a prospect", you've never met him, never talked to his teammates or coaches, yet you are convinced that his character is great, based on what????

I always keep an open mind, especially when concerns about his character are being publicly mentioned on reliable sites. I not saying he isn't a huge talent who may well set the world on fire, just saying there are concerns. There are zero concerns about the character of Robinson, Matthews, Watkins and Mack, nobody is even raising that issue with these guys, so why is Clowney being singled out, you just have to wonder if it smells like a pig and talks like a pig, it usually turns out to be a pig. Maybe, I've just been around longer than you, but something doesn't smell kosher to me.
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Old 04-08-2014, 10:45 AM    (permalink
Nastradamus
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I think you are forgetting that his college HC wasn't too kind in his description of Clowney. I not saying he isn't immensely talented but talent alone won't make you a great player, you need the intangibles to go along with talent to be great and there are definitely still some lingering doubts about Clowney's character.

If he was completely clean re: his character, with the immense talent he has, there would be zero talk about the top 3 drafting teams passing on him. You have to ask why this conversation about him not getting picked top 3 is even taking place, there should be no mention of him slipping to the 4-6 range. Character concerns can be the only reason such thoughts exist.

I don't get your saying "I don't know if I've ever had less doubt about a prospect", you've never met him, never talked to his teammates or coaches, yet you are convinced that his character is great, based on what????

I always keep an open mind, especially when concerns about his character are being publicly mentioned on reliable sites. I not saying he isn't a huge talent who may well set the world on fire, just saying there are concerns. There are zero concerns about the character of Robinson, Matthews, Watkins and Mack, nobody is even raising that issue with these guys, so why is Clowney being singled out, you just have to wonder if it smells like a pig and talks like a pig, it usually turns out to be a pig. Maybe, I've just been around longer than you, but something doesn't smell kosher to me.
What Spurrier said was comletely blown out of proportion. He didn't say a single negative thing about him. He said maybe he wasn't the #1 guy on the team who went above and beyond.

I also don't believe there is any question about him going top 3. I would bet good money that he's #1 on every single team's board. Every,single,one.
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Old 04-08-2014, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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as for how I know his character is good. No, I haven't met him. None of us have met any of these prospects. He may be a complete asshole, but so might Khalil Mack and we aren't talking about his character. What I'm saying is that the stuff we have heard about him is BS media conjecture that has nothing objective attached to it. His tape is fantastic, he's never been suspended or in trouble off the field, he's never even said anything controversial. He was less winded than the other DLs at his pro day, his workouts were phenomenal, meaning he was in good shape, which requires hard work etc.
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Old 04-08-2014, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying I wouldn't want Clowney on my team. Obviously I would. But I would not trade everything to get him. I have an issue with a guy being as talented as he is and disappearing the way he did last year with all eyes on him. You can give any excuse you want, that he could have sat out and still gone high or that he didn't want to risk injury or whatever. The fact is he disappeared when he was the most talented kid in the nation. Self motivation is important and IMO all he did was show that he lacks that.

Look at Fairley now, tons of talent and can never put it together to be a stud. It's his motor that is holding him back and only his motor. Talent has nothing to do with it.

Clowney may be a stud and could explode on the scene next year. But I'm not risking the amount of picks we'd need to trade to get him. IMO he is motivated by other reasons than being the best he can be and you need that motivation to be a true difference in this league. Players will play for money of course, but the great ones also take pride in being the best and come play each and every day. Clowney didn't do that last year when he was supposed to be the guy. I don't see why anyone would mortgage it all in hopes that that will change.
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Old 04-09-2014, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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Default All this Clowney talk is interesting

it appears that you guys really aren't as worried about your secondary as the rest of the league thinks you should be.

Also, how hard against the capo were you guys? If another pass rusher was such a concern, J. Allen was right there for the picking. He could have been a better version of Kyle Van Den Boch.

Just pick up Dennard, Gilbert or Clinton-Dix and call it a day. The front end works with the back end.

Additionally, with all the WR talent in this draft, you can well wait for the second or third round.
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Old 04-09-2014, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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There's a reason Brooklyn doesn't have its own pro franchise and the closest things to one have tried Tebow and Sanchez and Manuel and Fitzpatrick. Most of this franchise's fans know where we sit as far as secondary talent. Most of us have discussed the people available and do not consider them viable options for a top ten pick. Our fan boards reflect the old arguments and the current one is Anthony Barr, trade up, take a chance and trade down with someone needing a Tackle or a QB.
To summarize for you,
We are looking at trading up for Clowney, Watkins or Mack.
If we stand pat do we grab Lewan or Barr or a secondary target?
Who is looking to grab Lewan or a QB?
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Old 04-09-2014, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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it appears that you guys really aren't as worried about your secondary as the rest of the league thinks you should be.

Also, how hard against the capo were you guys? If another pass rusher was such a concern, J. Allen was right there for the picking. He could have been a better version of Kyle Van Den Boch.

Just pick up Dennard, Gilbert or Clinton-Dix and call it a day. The front end works with the back end.

Additionally, with all the WR talent in this draft, you can well wait for the second or third round.
Some of the posters in this thread may not be concerned but I am, we're looking for a number 1 Corner, hoping Darius Slay can become a number 2, there are multiple Corners on the roster that I see as Nickle Corners at best so I'm looking for upgrades not only at the top of the depth chart but the overall depth of the position as well. I've noticed that Lions fans think because the team has drafted multiple Corners in the mid rounds of the draft that the depth is good enough but I don't see it that way. You can never have enough Corners in this league nor should you ever settle just because there are young ones on the roster.

As of right now I think we're ok at Safety but going to need someone to replace James Ihedigbo so grabbing a young guy to groom is definitely something to consider.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:20 PM    (permalink
touchdownmaker
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Default Wow the Motor city is pretty fiesty

Well, its interesting that those teams you hinted are all not my teams. I'm a Giants and have been witness to championship football for a good number of years.

Its also worth noting that those other teams you mentioned have more Super Bowl and Conference Championship appearances than some other unfortunate franchises.

I'm not here to trade barbs. I just found it interesting that you all aren't desperate for help on the back end. Every mock I've looked at in the past few years always mentions the holes in the secondary. Hell, even division rival WR have mentioned it. I remember seeing a pre-draft interview on NFL network with Greg Jenning last year where he mentioned that very same thing. You guys haven't upgraded much since then, and you have to play the Pack and the Bears (Jeffries and Marshall) twice a year.

I see your point about thinking Gilbert might be an over draft at your spot, so trade down and pick up Dennard or Pryor, or take Clinton-Dix who is graded higher than Reid and Vaccaro both of which had very productive rookie years. Even Pyor is graded higher than last year's top drafted safties.

I think trading up for Watkins is a Millenesque move in IMHO. You lose picks, and depth to fill a position that is historically deep this year. Hell Beckham, Landry or Adams are going to make their plays when called upon if the coverage is going to severly roll to Megatron. These guys could be available in the 2nd. Or why not stay pat and draft Evans? Or trade down and pick up Cooks? Drafting a WR in the first is not the best move, but its better than trading up. Or did I misread your team depth? Are you guys good enough with depth that you don't need to supplement your roster with cheap drafted players?

Drafting a LT would also be a capital idea. It stregnthens your run game and keeps Stafford upright.

I think trading up will be closest to the worst thing you can do in a draft this deep.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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I don't think we're underestimating how much help we need in the secondary. I think it's just a matter of not believing in drafting for need in the top 10 (except for QBs). If Gilbert/HaHa is there at #10 and he carries a similar grade as the other prospects available then by all means take him. Secondary help is absolutely our biggest need. However, if Jake Matthews is sitting there carrying an elite grade and you have Justin Gilbert/ HaHa as just good prospects then you take Matthews.

I would love to be able to trade back to the end of the 1st as I think that's where the best value for corners is. I've been all for making a deal with Cleveland to move back to #26 if that's available.

Clowney is the only prospect who I'd be ok with us moving up for because I think he's a rare talent and clearly above the rest of this class. He'd also be a huge upgrade over what we currently have at DE. Even then I wouldn't give up 3 1sts or anything crazy like that to get him.

It's also worth noting that while CB is our biggest need it's also one of the hardest positions to transition to in the NFL. We can't just take a guy like Gilbert at #10 and expect him to be a solid #1 CB in his first season. He's actually very raw as a prospect so I'd expect him to struggle quite a bit as a rookie. I do see the appeal in having an elite talent at the position to groom though. It's just not something I feel we should consider reaching for.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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it appears that you guys really aren't as worried about your secondary as the rest of the league thinks you should be.

Also, how hard against the capo were you guys? If another pass rusher was such a concern, J. Allen was right there for the picking. He could have been a better version of Kyle Van Den Boch.

Just pick up Dennard, Gilbert or Clinton-Dix and call it a day. The front end works with the back end.

Additionally, with all the WR talent in this draft, you can well wait for the second or third round.
Also to answer your question we're now right up against the cap. We're going to need to make a little room for our rookie contracts actually. We were hoping to have Suh's extension done before free agency to give us a some more room but that still hasn't happened yet. Signing Tate was the only big move we were really capable of making. Our need at WR was much bigger than our need for a pass rusher. We'll still be looking at the position in the draft even after signing Tate.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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Some of the posters in this thread may not be concerned but I am, we're looking for a number 1 Corner, hoping Darius Slay can become a number 2, there are multiple Corners on the roster that I see as Nickle Corners at best so I'm looking for upgrades not only at the top of the depth chart but the overall depth of the position as well. I've noticed that Lions fans think because the team has drafted multiple Corners in the mid rounds of the draft that the depth is good enough but I don't see it that way. You can never have enough Corners in this league nor should you ever settle just because there are young ones on the roster.

As of right now I think we're ok at Safety but going to need someone to replace James Ihedigbo so grabbing a young guy to groom is definitely something to consider.
Good info. I really liked Slay coming out of Miss State. He and Jonathan Banks made for a killer one two punch. I really like Dennard for you guys. He is such a great technician, leader and student of the game. He can press and is a willing tackler. I'm not sure he'll lock down a whole side of the field, but he will at worst be Brandon Flowers, IMHO, which is pretty damn good. Then draft Stanley Jean-Baptiste as a nickel/Safety....

I can see why someone would reticent about using a top ten on a CB this year though, but in today's NFL, you need a deep quality secondary.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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I'm probably wrong, but I can't really remember when we were in position to add an impact #1 Corner in the draft with our pick.

In 2011 we offered our #13, Round 2, and Round 4 picks to Arizona for their #5 pick to draft Patrick Peterson. AZ declined, and we ended up with Fairley, Titus Young, and that Round 4 was used to trade up for Mikel Leshoure. Blah.

It's about finding the right player. Should they draft Gilbert, Dennard, or Fuller just because they're Cornerbacks? Picking a player just to pick the position is the wrong way to draft.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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It's also worth noting that while CB is our biggest need it's also one of the hardest positions to transition to in the NFL. We can't just take a guy like Gilbert at #10 and expect him to be a solid #1 CB in his first season. He's actually very raw as a prospect so I'd expect him to struggle quite a bit as a rookie. I do see the appeal in having an elite talent at the position to groom though. It's just not something I feel we should consider reaching for.
Agreed. Which is why I think Dennard is the best option. I think the learning curve will be much less severe. His technique, and study habits will prove to help more quickly. That is why I liken Gilbert to DRC. Great speed, but that is only going to help him when guys go by him, untill he learns the positions.

Well, I am hoping for your sake, the Texans take the trade-up option out of your hands, lol. Then again, I don't see him getting past Jacksonsville if the Texans pass. If you can get away with giving up future firsts only and not future firsts and two additional picks this year then more power to you, but I don't see that happening.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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I'm probably wrong, but I can't really remember when we were in position to add an impact #1 Corner in the draft with our pick.

In 2011 we offered our #13, Round 2, and Round 4 picks to Arizona for their #5 pick to draft Patrick Peterson. AZ declined, and we ended up with Fairley, Titus Young, and that Round 4 was used to trade up for Mikel Leshoure. Blah.

It's about finding the right player. Should they draft Gilbert, Dennard, or Fuller just because they're Cornerbacks? Picking a player just to pick the position is the wrong way to draft.
Milliner last year would probably be the best example. He certainly had his struggles last season but he started to come along towards the end. He was pretty highly regarded as a prospect as well. Had a ton of experience playing for Saban and had very good physical tools.

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Old 04-09-2014, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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Agreed. Which is why I think Dennard is the best option. I think the learning curve will be much less severe. His technique, and study habits will prove to help more quickly. That is why I liken Gilbert to DRC. Great speed, but that is only going to help him when guys go by him, untill he learns the positions.

Well, I am hoping for your sake, the Texans take the trade-up option out of your hands, lol. Then again, I don't see him getting past Jacksonsville if the Texans pass. If you can get away with giving up future firsts only and not future firsts and two additional picks this year then more power to you, but I don't see that happening.
The biggest reason I like Gilbert is his playmaking ability. Our CBs combined for just 2 INTs last year and while Gilbert is still a work in progress he has elite physical tools and ball skills for the position.

Dennard might be the best fit for us though. His play style matches up well against the bigger receivers in our division. I'm not sure his upside is worthy of a top 10 pick in this class though. He also has a habit of being physical down field which will get him into trouble in the NFL. I wouldn't fault anybody for having him rated over Gilbert though.

Jason Verrett is actually the guy who I think is most ready to play at this point. His size might hold him back from playing on the outside, which would be a serious problem giving the talent we have at the moment. However, he's one of the most sure-things in this draft IMO and getting immediate secondary help would be nice. He could be a guy we target if we're able to trade to the back of the 1st and if he's somehow available in the 2nd he'd be a steal.

HaHa is clearly the safety that we'd be looking at drafting. We need a guy to play FS and he has the coverage skills that we're looking for. We don't really need a guy with Pryor's skill set IMO. Also Jimmie Ward is a guy I really like that we could target in the 2nd if he's available. He has great instincts in coverage.

That would be my breakdown of the options we have for secondary players in this draft. I don't think we should shape our draft around these guys but if we're able to target the right guys without giving up value then I'm all for it.
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Old 04-09-2014, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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The defense really started to play well down the stretch, even with our top few CBs out. I think we could use some secondary help, but not finishing next to last in blitizng and sacks could help us in that department a lot more.
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Old 04-09-2014, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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The biggest reason I like Gilbert is his playmaking ability. Our CBs combined for just 2 INTs last year and while Gilbert is still a work in progress he has elite physical tools and ball skills for the position.
Strongly agree on this. TOs are a huge area where we can improve. If we can generate 5 more as a defense and commit 5 less as an offense, it will help us greatly in terms of next year's W/L total.
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Old 04-09-2014, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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Strongly agree on this. TOs are a huge area where we can improve. If we can generate 5 more as a defense and commit 5 less as an offense, it will help us greatly in terms of next year's W/L total.
Agreed on turnovers. Detroit can move the ball and score well (even on long drives) and get stops (fairly well). Actually their 3rd down% was tops in the league. Turnovers, 5 more forced, 5 less allowed (maybe more). too many turnovers on offense made our defense look worse than it actually is.

6-3 were we even turnover differential
1-6 -12 turnover differential

The talent is there, just need to hone it in without dumb mistakes.
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Old 04-09-2014, 10:23 PM    (permalink
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I'm starting to actually think we may be targeting Watkins. The fact that Ford met with him says a lot IMO. It is officially an all in move on Stafford. I am for it depending on what we give up.

In terms of CB, I have always been very pro Gilbert and if we stay at #10 I certainly will not be upset taking him. In fact he would probably be my first choice.

But to say we need to take a CB just isn't true. We have a very solid defense last year with a subpar pass rush off the edge and a secondary that included a rookie CB. There is room for significant improvement from our defense with internal improvement from young guys.

Our moves this offseason have made it very clear that we are an offensive team first and foremost. We are a pass heavy team with only 2 quality WRs. There is little doubt that if you add watkins to our WR squad we have a trio that couldn't be touched by anyone else in the league.

To win in this league you need to be dominant on one side of the ball. You will always have your strengths and weaknesses. If adding Watkins means having a mediocre secondary, I still like our chances in every single game. First, our defense will still be ranked around the top half of the league. Second, our offense can outscore anyone except Denver. Elite strengths mask weaknesses, Denver proved that better than anyone else last year (until the superbowl of course).
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Old 04-10-2014, 09:04 AM    (permalink
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Our first, Fairley and next year's 2nd...for Clelveland's # 4
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Old 04-10-2014, 09:54 AM    (permalink
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Our first, Fairley and next year's 2nd...for Clelveland's # 4
Cle has probably the deepest DL in the NFL, but I'd do that trade in a heartbeat. Oakland is probably a better bet.
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Old 04-10-2014, 10:17 AM    (permalink
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Oakland is probably our best option to trade up with. They supposedly want to move down pretty bad, and could probably have a spot for Fairley if we involved him in the deal to save a pick.

But we'd have to sweat it out for a while. I'd start making offers at #3..
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Old 04-10-2014, 10:27 AM    (permalink
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Yeah I think Oakland is the most likely option if we move Fairley. But I'm not sure we will. I think Mayhew is more than happy keeping him on a contract year and then letting some team overpay for him next year and taking the comp. pick.

Obviously if we get value for him I'd like to move him. But Mayhew seems dead set on winning now. I expect Fairley to be great this year with a FA coming up and having that impact on our Dline gives us more value this year than a draft pick will give us. But I wouldn't consider resigning him to a big contract, he is way too inconsistent.
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Old 04-10-2014, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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as for how I know his character is good. No, I haven't met him. None of us have met any of these prospects. He may be a complete asshole, but so might Khalil Mack and we aren't talking about his character. What I'm saying is that the stuff we have heard about him is BS media conjecture that has nothing objective attached to it. His tape is fantastic, he's never been suspended or in trouble off the field, he's never even said anything controversial. He was less winded than the other DLs at his pro day, his workouts were phenomenal, meaning he was in good shape, which requires hard work etc.
Well, they were discussing his work habits on the NFL Network yesterday and comparing them to a first overall pick who flopped because of poor work habits.
They indicated that is the word out on Clowney and the ex players weren't impressed. One ex scout tried to argue that under Crennel and Vrabel, he would be brought into the fold, but it certainly wasn't a resounding endorsement and most of the ex players basically rolled their eyes at that possibility.

I agree, he has superb talent for a DE, everything you could ever hope for, but there are legitimate concerns IMO.
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Old 04-10-2014, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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Just remember me after we see Clowney play in the league.
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