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Old 04-16-2014, 03:41 PM    (permalink
Nastradamus
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I wonder if the reason we don't hear about moving up for Mack is that they view him and Barr pretty equally.
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
I wonder if the reason we don't hear about moving up for Mack is that they view him and Barr pretty equally.
It really depends on what role you're drafting them for. Mack is a far better all-around LB. If you're going to ask him to play in space, drop into coverage, stand up against the run, AND rush the passer, Mack is the better fit. However, I think that Barr is the better pure pass rusher at this point. I believe there's a gap in their overall grades but it might not be worth the cost to move up, especially if the main goal is to find a guy capable of creating pressure.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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It really depends on what role you're drafting them for. Mack is a far better all-around LB. If you're going to ask him to play in space, drop into coverage, stand up against the run, AND rush the passer, Mack is the better fit. However, I think that Barr is the better pure pass rusher at this point. I believe there's a gap in their overall grades but it might not be worth the cost to move up, especially if the main goal is to find a guy capable of creating pressure.
Agreed. I think in Mack you get a LB who never leaves the field and is an equal threat to drop back and play the pass than he is to rush the LB. Barr to me seems more like a situational pass rusher. I think Mack is way above Barr. I'm honestly not too high on Barr but will also admit that i have not done too much research on him. If Barr is not capable of dropping back in coverage and is only a pass rushed that defeats the point because we aren't disguising anything. If he is on the field he is coming after the QB. Mack allows you to show the different looks and be unpredictable that adds confusion for the offense to try and read.
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Old 04-16-2014, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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I think both will play a hybrid role of 4-3 SLB,3-4 SOLB and 4-3 DE. Barr is a bit more raw than Mack, having not played defense as a freshman, but he has the athleticism and strength to help in coverage and against the run.
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Old 04-17-2014, 04:24 AM    (permalink
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I think both will play a hybrid role of 4-3 SLB,3-4 SOLB and 4-3 DE. Barr is a bit more raw than Mack, having not played defense as a freshman, but he has the athleticism and strength to help in coverage and against the run.
I agree Barr is a bit raw having only played defense for 2 years but I think I should mention that Mack never played high school football till his senior year and is pretty raw as well, both however have solid upsides you would think, with added experience at the position.

As for the gap in talent, there definitely is one after about 7 picks, but don't make the mistake of thinking it is a huge gap, this draft has at a minimum 18 prospects who would have challenged for a top 5 pick in last year's draft. If we stay at #10, we are in an excellent position to get a real big time stud in this draft year if Mayhew drafts properly, that's why trading up seems a bit strange to me.

However, I have to remind myself that 90% of the rumors normally circulating this time of the year turnout to be false, so I consider the rumor of us trading up as questionable.
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Old 04-17-2014, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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I was thinking the other day, what would people think if we took a OB in the 3rd or 4th round assuming there was decent value (maybe Aaron Murray, not sure he will last til 3rd)?

Correct me if I am wrong, but as of right now we only have Stafford and Kellen Moore? Did we sign Orlovsky too? In any case, it might not be a bad idea to give us some insurance this year and into the future to either replace Stafford (hope not, I think Stafford is legit) or develop the QB and trade for a higher pick in the future. Thoughts?
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Old 04-17-2014, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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I think it's a good possibility. We have already met with Mettenberger although I think he will end up going way higher than we would be willing to take a QB.

A guy maybe with one of our comp picks would make sense. In no way would I want to take one with our 3rd though. In this draft I think you are able to get a guy who can make an immediate impact in the 3rd. Or a future starter on the oline. I preference that over a QB that early.
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Old 04-17-2014, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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I was thinking the other day, what would people think if we took a OB in the 3rd or 4th round assuming there was decent value (maybe Aaron Murray, not sure he will last til 3rd)?

Correct me if I am wrong, but as of right now we only have Stafford and Kellen Moore? Did we sign Orlovsky too? In any case, it might not be a bad idea to give us some insurance this year and into the future to either replace Stafford (hope not, I think Stafford is legit) or develop the QB and trade for a higher pick in the future. Thoughts?
I'd be ok with that. We basically have somewhere between 1 and 3 needs for starters. After that, we are drafting for depth and development just about everywhere. QB is right in the mix, so if the value is there, go for it. I'm a big Murray fan and would also look at Savage,Shaw and maybe a couple others.
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Old 04-17-2014, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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I think it's a good possibility. We have already met with Mettenberger although I think he will end up going way higher than we would be willing to take a QB.

A guy maybe with one of our comp picks would make sense. In no way would I want to take one with our 3rd though. In this draft I think you are able to get a guy who can make an immediate impact in the 3rd. Or a future starter on the oline. I preference that over a QB that early.
My one caveat would that if you can get a QB in the 3rd that you think you can flip for a 1st one day, you do it.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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Post your drafts for now with trades if you make them.
We trade down with St. Louis and get 13 and 44
010) traded to St. Louis for 13 and 44
013) Darqueze Dennard CB
029) Ryan Shazier OLB
044) traded to New England for 29 and 62
045) traded to New England for 29 and 62
062) Westin Richburg OC
077) Paul Richardson WR
111) Cody Latimer WR
133) Kenny Ladler FS
136) James Gayle DE
6 th) Chris. Boswell K
7 th) Jeff Janis WR

Last edited by weasel : 04-20-2014 at 08:46 AM. Reason: Try this for a second chance
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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Not bad. Dennard and Cooks aren't my favorites, but I don't hate the picks either. Definitely wouldn't want to take a FB after we just signed one though. We'll likely barely use one as it is.

St.Louis doesn't own pick 34 either, so not sure what that trade is. They pick one spot in front of us in the 2nd, 44th. They have pick 2 via the Redskins and the RG3 trade.
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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Knew i should have tried to find a draft selection list first
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Old 04-19-2014, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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haha, no biggie just lettin' ya know. Here's what mine would be as of right now

Philly trades up to 10 for Evans, giving us 22 along with their 2nd and a future 3rd.


1(22). - Ryan Shazier
2nd - Jimmy Ward
2nd - Marcus Martin
3rd - Martavis Bryant
4th comp - Aaron Lynch
4th comp - Xavier Grimble
6th - Aaron Colvin
7th - Jerrick Mckinnon
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Old 04-20-2014, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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So i edited that first shot, how does that look?
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Old 04-20-2014, 09:50 AM    (permalink
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a little heavy on WRs, but I like the ones you got so I couldn't complain. Definitely love snagging Dennard and Shazier, Richburg too
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Old 04-20-2014, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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I looked at ward but figured we have Quin
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Old 04-20-2014, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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Ward isn't necessarily a need, but neither safety is particularly young or cheap and we could use the depth. I think Ward could end up in the nickel role too, so that's a factor in how I see his value. Its definitely a bit of a luxury pick.
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by weasel View Post
Post your drafts for now with trades if you make them.
We trade down with St. Louis and get 13 and 44
010) traded to St. Louis for 13 and 44
013) Darqueze Dennard CB
029) Ryan Shazier OLB
044) traded to New England for 29 and 62
045) traded to New England for 29 and 62
062) Westin Richburg OC
077) Paul Richardson WR
111) Cody Latimer WR
133) Kenny Ladler FS
136) James Gayle DE
6 th) Chris. Boswell K
7 th) Jeff Janis WR
If you want Dennard, it's a good trade, but he really suits a zone system the best and will struggle in man to man coverage and be prone to the big play in that system. I prefer Gilbert in our system.

Shazier will never be available at 29.

Like the OC in round 3.

If you switch Richardson and Latimer, it is possible, Richardson is the very definition of frail and it will hurt him on draft day, while Latimer has had an excellent post season and likely won't get out of round 3.

If you switch Gayle and Janis, it might be more practical. Gayle's a 6/7th rounder for me, not a whole lot there, while Janis is raw but has some upside.

Overall, 3 WR's is a bit too much for me, would prefer a Safety somewhere in the first 4 or 5 picks.
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Old 04-21-2014, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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haha, no biggie just lettin' ya know. Here's what mine would be as of right now

Philly trades up to 10 for Evans, giving us 22 along with their 2nd and a future 3rd.


1(22). - Ryan Shazier
2nd - Jimmy Ward
2nd - Marcus Martin
3rd - Martavis Bryant
4th comp - Aaron Lynch
4th comp - Xavier Grimble
6th - Aaron Colvin
7th - Jerrick Mckinnon
You are discounting the price to move down 12 spots and dreaming that Shazier is still there, cannot see him getting out of the top 20. IMO, there are potentially 20 solid 1st rounders in this draft who have all Pro potential if not higher. To trade down past that #, you are moving into the area where there is a definite talent drop off. Very few GM's would ever make that kind of trade praying that one of the top 20 picks slips to him.

I'm OK with Ward and Martin, but would prefer a WR in round 2 with an OC in round 3.

Bryant is strictly a round 6/7 type for me. Immature(suspensions for academics and throat slashing gesture), inconsistent hands, doesn't understand route running, struggles to catch the ball cleanly, will double catch or try to cradle the ball, tendency to wait on the ball rather than catch it at his high point, a finesse receiver, just not very physical and finally, he has great difficulty getting separation from cover CB's.

Aaron Lynch is another 6/7th rounder type, total underachiever who only flashes in the occasional game.

Grimble has a terrible post season and is slow as can be, running in the 4.9 to 5.0 range. Before the postseason I would have taken him in the 4th, but after that performance, he's a 6/7th rounder IMO.

If you want Colvin, he'll cost at least a 4th rounder if not higher.

I prefer Lorenzo Taliaferro as my 7th round RB, but that late who knows.

Sorry, don't like this mock.
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Old 04-21-2014, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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haha, no biggie just lettin' ya know. Here's what mine would be as of right now

Philly trades up to 10 for Evans, giving us 22 along with their 2nd and a future 3rd.


1(22). - Ryan Shazier
2nd - Jimmy Ward
2nd - Marcus Martin
3rd - Martavis Bryant
4th comp - Aaron Lynch
4th comp - Xavier Grimble
6th - Aaron Colvin
7th - Jerrick Mckinnon
You are discounting the price to move down 12 spots and dreaming that Shazier is still there, cannot see him getting out of the top 20. IMO, there are potentially 20 solid 1st rounders in this draft who have all Pro potential if not higher. To trade down past that #, you are moving into the area where there is a definite talent drop off. Very few GM's would ever make that kind of trade praying that one of the top 20 picks slips to him.

I'm OK with Ward and Martin, but would prefer a WR in round 2 with an OC in round 3.

Bryant is strictly a round 6/7 type for me. Immature(suspensions for academics and throat slashing gesture), inconsistent hands, doesn't understand route running, struggles to catch the ball cleanly, will double catch or try to cradle the ball, tendency to wait on the ball rather than catch it at his high point, a finesse receiver, just not very physical and finally, he has great difficulty getting separation from cover CB's.

Aaron Lynch is another 6/7th rounder type, total underachiever who only flashes in the occasional game.

Grimble has a terrible post season and is slow as can be, running in the 4.9 to 5.0 range. Before the postseason I would have taken him in the 4th, but after that performance, he's a 6/7th rounder IMO.

If you want Colvin, he'll cost at least a 4th rounder if not higher.

I prefer Lorenzo Taliaferro as my 7th round RB, but that late who knows.

Sorry, don't like this mock.
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Old 04-21-2014, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
You are discounting the price to move down 12 spots and dreaming that Shazier is still there, cannot see him getting out of the top 20. IMO, there are potentially 20 solid 1st rounders in this draft who have all Pro potential if not higher. To trade down past that #, you are moving into the area where there is a definite talent drop off. Very few GM's would ever make that kind of trade praying that one of the top 20 picks slips to him.

I'm OK with Ward and Martin, but would prefer a WR in round 2 with an OC in round 3.

Bryant is strictly a round 6/7 type for me. Immature(suspensions for academics and throat slashing gesture), inconsistent hands, doesn't understand route running, struggles to catch the ball cleanly, will double catch or try to cradle the ball, tendency to wait on the ball rather than catch it at his high point, a finesse receiver, just not very physical and finally, he has great difficulty getting separation from cover CB's.

Aaron Lynch is another 6/7th rounder type, total underachiever who only flashes in the occasional game.

Grimble has a terrible post season and is slow as can be, running in the 4.9 to 5.0 range. Before the postseason I would have taken him in the 4th, but after that performance, he's a 6/7th rounder IMO.

If you want Colvin, he'll cost at least a 4th rounder if not higher.

I prefer Lorenzo Taliaferro as my 7th round RB, but that late who knows.

Sorry, don't like this mock.
Let me say one thing first. You can't keep talking up the depth and quality of this draft and then also expect chart value in trade downs. You say there are 20 top 5 caliber players in this draft, but want a huge ransom to move from 10-22? Just not realistic.

I don't think Colvin goes as high as you think. He's basically 0% chance to play next year. Its a nice investment, but he might have been a 3rd rounder healthy. You are dropping more than one round for missing an entire season.

I think Grimble is worth the gamble. He's athletic on tape and can both block and catch. I'd be cool going Lylerla instead though too. Maybe Lynch.

Lynch has 1st round talent. He's an underachiever, but he plays arguably the second most important position in today's NFL, pass rusher. Guys with that kind of upside rise on draft day in a way they don't in mock drafts typically.

No way Bryant gets out of the 4th and that would be circumstantial even. He has his warts, but the guy is going to make plays downfield in the NFL and you can't ignore that for long. Another case of upside rising. His game reminds me of Chris Henry ,though there is defintiely fear that he is Chris Henry off the field as well. Still, Henry brought an element to that Cincy offense that we could really use here. IF you put a WR who can take the top off a defense opposite Calvin, look out.
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Old 04-21-2014, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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Let me say one thing first. You can't keep talking up the depth and quality of this draft and then also expect chart value in trade downs. You say there are 20 top 5 caliber players in this draft, but want a huge ransom to move from 10-22? Just not realistic.

Quote:
That's why moving to #22 is so strange, your moving out of the very, very good to elite group into the good group and teams usually have to pay a bonus to get a team to do that. It is true that a team trading down a couple of spots may get a value not equal to the value chart, but if you want to move up 12 spots into the higher eschelon of this year's talent, I would expect a team to have to sweeten the pot before I'd make that trade.
I don't think Colvin goes as high as you think. He's basically 0% chance to play next year. Its a nice investment, but he might have been a 3rd rounder healthy. You are dropping more than one round for missing an entire season.

Quote:
Sorry, forgot he was injured that seriously.
I think Grimble is worth the gamble. He's athletic on tape and can both block and catch. I'd be cool going Lylerla instead though too. Maybe Lynch.

Quote:
I think you could get all three a lot cheaper.
Lynch has 1st round talent. He's an underachiever, but he plays arguably the second most important position in today's NFL, pass rusher. Guys with that kind of upside rise on draft day in a way they don't in mock drafts typically.

Quote:
The tape I watched on him I only saw 3 games out of 11 where he did anything significant, underachiever to say the least.
No way Bryant gets out of the 4th and that would be circumstantial even. He has his warts, but the guy is going to make plays downfield in the NFL and you can't ignore that for long. Another case of upside rising. His game reminds me of Chris Henry ,though there is defintiely fear that he is Chris Henry off the field as well. Still, Henry brought an element to that Cincy offense that we could really use here. IF you put a WR who can take the top off a defense opposite Calvin, look out.
Quote:
I'll be shocked if he goes before the 6th round, I doubt he makes it past training camp. Outside of a little speed, he has no NFL talent.
Just my opinion, but I don't like the mock.
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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Yah fair enough. I can understand your disagreements on pretty much all of those players.

As for the trade, I really value an extra 2nd rounder in this draft and think there is nice value to be had at 22. There is a pretty strong chance you can get a top 20 player on your board at 22.
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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Yah fair enough. I can understand your disagreements on pretty much all of those players.

As for the trade, I really value an extra 2nd rounder in this draft and think there is nice value to be had at 22. There is a pretty strong chance you can get a top 20 player on your board at 22.
I'd also love to pick up extra picks in this draft for the reasons you stated, but trading back at #10 and having to wait 12 more picks to see who might be available is an awful huge gamble IMO. You wouldn't have a clue as to who you are going to get and it could end up at a position you'd rather not take. Cleveland was the last team to trade back in a similar situation and they got an OC in Mack for Julius Jones, hardly a great return.
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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They got Mack for Mark Sanchez. All pro center for a backup QB. Not too shabby eh?

They also got Phil Taylor in the Julio Jones trade, a stud young NT. You also have to factor in that the 5 guys in or near the Julio Jones range were gone.
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