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Old 04-26-2013, 03:10 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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Originally Posted by DrewyVuitton View Post
Dude, Elam has the most stout frame on any safety in the class. Pure muscle and compact. Again, you're making stuff up.
Sounds like you're describing Bob Sanders.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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If you want to put it that way then Jerry has 3 SBs. lol

The bottom line is that their board is not the basis for grading our board. He might have been a reach, but not so terrible to think that we're not gonna get anything positive out of this. It's like the sky is falling down. I don't care what our grade is. I only care if he pans out or not.
If you know anything about Cowboys football, which I question, than you know Jimmy did all the drafting. Jerry was along for the ride.

Jimmy said as much when interviewed by Bob Costas while sitting right next to Jerry. He said he DOESN'T RESPECT Jerry's opinion on players and it took him over 30 years to gain the knowledge he had.

Jimmy is responsible for those superbowls. He built those teams. Just like Landry was responsible for the 70's bowls.

Dallas owes all 5 championships to coaching, not to management. This is not an Ozzie Smith front office.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Sounds like you're describing Bob Sanders.
Bob Sanders was rumored to be heavily into steroids which makes sense when he had his bicep tendons tear in back-to-back seasons. His health issues had nothing to do with his frame, it had everything to do with tendons and tears.

Apples to Oranges.

Eric Reid has had more injuries and 3 surgeries compared to none for Elam. So what does that tell you?
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...130339621.html


That interesting philosophy aside, the Cowboys almost certainly could have grabbed Frederick in the second round if they really wanted him. And given their glaring need at the safety position, passing up Florida safety Matt Elam (who the Baltimore Ravens took with the next pick) and Florida International safety Jonathan Cyprien (who will be a second-round steal for somebody) would tend to indicate that neither Jones in charge understands the concept of player value.

When it was pointed out to Stephen Jones that the Cowboys should have received a second-round pick per the trade value chart for their move down, Jones bristled.
“Not accurate,” he said. “We actually did better than the chart.”


The Travis Frederick pick isn't the disease; just another symptom of the overall malaise.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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@Edwerderespn: Based on my random survey of five teams, here is where Cowboys No. 1 Travis Frederick was on draft boards: 4th (1), 5th (2), 6 (1), 6-7 (1)

How much more proof do you guys need that this was a terrible pick? Massive reach.

Say what you want, he would have been available at 47 and probably later.
We'll see.

For the record:
Bill Polian had a 2nd round grade on him
Si.com had him as their top C with a sig higher grade than Long and only one other G higher than him (Warford)
CBS.com has him w a 2nd grade and their top C
Prisco mocked him in the first at 24
NFL.com gave him a score of 78.7 easily the best C (Long - 77 & Pugh 73)
Walterfootball had him solidly in the 2nd
nfldraftscout.com had him as a 2nd
foxsports.com has him as a solid 2nd rounder

Only time will tell which one of us is right. Frankly, I find that some folks told Werder a 6th or 7th kinda funny. I'm wondering if they're not bending the truth to try and poke a stick at the Cowboys by being able to do it anonymously? :)

I just don't see how anyone can watch his film and say 6th rounder.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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If you know anything about Cowboys football, which I question, than you know Jimmy did all the drafting. Jerry was along for the ride.

Jimmy said as much when interviewed by Bob Costas while sitting right next to Jerry. He said he DOESN'T RESPECT Jerry's opinion on players and it took him over 30 years to gain the knowledge he had.

Jimmy is responsible for those superbowls. He built those teams. Just like Landry was responsible for the 70's bowls.

Dallas owes all 5 championships to coaching, not to management. This is not an Ozzie Smith front office.
Haha, why can't you control your anger? I get you're mad at the Cowboys. So what? You gotta insult me too? You're so mad, you're all over the place!

Of course Jimmy chose those guys. Guess what? So did Bill and so does Jason. Jason chose Frederick yesterday! Not Jerry. But you're placing the blame on Jerry? Which is it gonna be? Blame the coach or blame Jerry? Or will it just be whatever is convenient for you?

If you're gonna be critical, at least be consistent. Say how much you hate this pick because of Jason. Then we're getting somewhere.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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We'll see.

For the record:
Bill Polian had a 2nd round grade on him
Si.com had him as their top C with a sig higher grade than Long and only one other G higher than him (Warford)
CBS.com has him w a 2nd grade and their top C
Prisco mocked him in the first at 24
NFL.com gave him a score of 78.7 easily the best C (Long - 77 & Pugh 73)
Walterfootball had him solidly in the 2nd
nfldraftscout.com had him as a 2nd
foxsports.com has him as a solid 2nd rounder

Only time will tell which one of us is right. Frankly, I find that some folks told Werder a 6th or 7th kinda funny. I'm wondering if they're not bending the truth to try and poke a stick at the Cowboys by being able to do it anonymously? :)

I just don't see how anyone can watch his film and say 6th rounder.
I can only go off what's reported. That's what's reported.

Right now on NFLN "Which team in the NFC East closed the gap on the Redskins"

"We'll it wasn't the Cowboys..."

Billick "They could have got Frederick at 74" -- LOL not even 47!! 74!!!

So basically past NFL GM's, past NFL coaches, and current NFL teams had him ranked later.

Online experts had him in the 2nd, still later.

Polian had him in the 2nd, still later.

All of the undoubtedly had him with a similar grade to the rest of the interior lineman still available.

And they got ripped off on a trade and passed up on a star like Eifert.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by pocketaces View Post
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...130339621.html


That interesting philosophy aside, the Cowboys almost certainly could have grabbed Frederick in the second round if they really wanted him. And given their glaring need at the safety position, passing up Florida safety Matt Elam (who the Baltimore Ravens took with the next pick) and Florida International safety Jonathan Cyprien (who will be a second-round steal for somebody) would tend to indicate that neither Jones in charge understands the concept of player value.

When it was pointed out to Stephen Jones that the Cowboys should have received a second-round pick per the trade value chart for their move down, Jones bristled.
“Not accurate,” he said. “We actually did better than the chart.”


The Travis Frederick pick isn't the disease; just another symptom of the overall malaise.
Yup. I can get on the same page with this. I have to severely question their value chart. The only thing I can think of is that they adjust their value chart
every year. Since this year, there was very little elite talent in the top of the 1st round and no elite QBs lasting through the 1st, the best value was said to be in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. If that's the case, then their value chart would weigh more favorably towards those rounds. Which in that case I can understand what Stephen is saying.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Haha, why can't you control your anger? I get you're mad at the Cowboys. So what? You gotta insult me too? You're so mad, you're all over the place!

Of course Jimmy chose those guys. Guess what? So did Bill and so does Jason. Jason chose Frederick yesterday! Not Jerry. But you're placing the blame on Jerry? Which is it gonna be? Blame the coach or blame Jerry? Or will it just be whatever is convenient for you?

If you're gonna be critical, at least be consistent. Say how much you hate this pick because of Jason. Then we're getting somewhere.
Jason sucks too. He should have been fired.

But Jason isn't running the draft like you claim. You bend the argument to fit whatever you want.

"Oh Jerry is making the trade but Jason is making the picks"

How the **** do you know? Because you said so?

Jason is a lame duck coach. He's a puppet. You either run the entire draft, or you don't. He doesn't. He isn't controlling the trades and he isn't controlling the picks.

Jimmy made the picks AND the trades.

Bill didnt have full control either. Again, if you knew your history, you would know Bill was overruled on Kevin Williams in favor or Terence Newman and Bill was overruled on Marcus Spears in favor of Demarcus Ware.

Jerry has been in control since Jimmy left. That's why Jimmy left. Because Jerry was a cancer he couldn't stop.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Bob Sanders was rumored to be heavily into steroids which makes sense when he had his bicep tendons tear in back-to-back seasons. His health issues had nothing to do with his frame, it had everything to do with tendons and tears.

Apples to Oranges.

Eric Reid has had more injuries and 3 surgeries compared to none for Elam. So what does that tell you?
That tells me that the 49ers made a mistake in taking Reid over Elam.

I'm not too thrilled about taking a SS in Round 1. A FS? Hell yes. A SS, no thanks.

My top target today will be David Amerson. Yup. Many have talked about him being a better fit at Safety in the NFL and I tend to agree. His zone instincts are amazing and he proved that he was plenty fast at the combine. Give me that kind of ballhawking in the deep secondary. I would love to see "Amerson" on the back of a Cowboys jersey.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Understand, the problem isn't necessarily with Frederick, because the Cowboys definitely need help on the offensive line.

The problem is it feels like the Cowboys wasted an opportunity to get a much more talented player with the 18th pick -- and they still could've had Frederick, the top-rated center and 70th-rated prospect according to ESPN's player rankings. Or somebody just as good, such as California's Brian Schwenke (ranked 72nd) or Alabama's Barrett Jones (ranked 97th) in the second round.

Sound famiiar?

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/...ings-questions

this team's track record of poor drafting and questionable decision-making doesn't instill much confidence that they got it right Thursday.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...130339621.html


That interesting philosophy aside, the Cowboys almost certainly could have grabbed Frederick in the second round if they really wanted him. And given their glaring need at the safety position, passing up Florida safety Matt Elam (who the Baltimore Ravens took with the next pick) and Florida International safety Jonathan Cyprien (who will be a second-round steal for somebody) would tend to indicate that neither Jones in charge understands the concept of player value.

When it was pointed out to Stephen Jones that the Cowboys should have received a second-round pick per the trade value chart for their move down, Jones bristled.
“Not accurate,” he said. “We actually did better than the chart.”


The Travis Frederick pick isn't the disease; just another symptom of the overall malaise.
Cowboys got less than any other team did in a first round trade. Patriots, Raiders, Bills all received more compensation than the Cowboys. So yeah, this team is ********.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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Understand, the problem isn't necessarily with Frederick, because the Cowboys definitely need help on the offensive line.

The problem is it feels like the Cowboys wasted an opportunity to get a much more talented player with the 18th pick -- and they still could've had Frederick, the top-rated center and 70th-rated prospect according to ESPN's player rankings. Or somebody just as good, such as California's Brian Schwenke (ranked 72nd) or Alabama's Barrett Jones (ranked 97th) in the second round.

Sound famiiar?

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/...ings-questions

this team's track record of poor drafting and questionable decision-making doesn't instill much confidence that they got it right Thursday.
^^^^^This^^^^^

Not sure why this is so difficult for the homers to comprehend.

Frederick is a fine pick... LATER ON.

Could of had him and a safety or a WR or DL or whatever you want. They whiffed big time.

Like I said earlier, if you really like Tyrann Mathieu do you take him at 31? What if he's the highest rated player on the board??

NO! You do not! Because he'll be available later. You can get players + Mathieu, why screw yourself.

But the apologist homers on this board don't get it. Just blindly follow Jerry like the morons who blindly follow Obama.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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And D-Unit, the reason I attack you is because you fabricate things. You completely make stuff up.

"This is Jason's team" "Jason runs the draft" "Jason made the coaching change"

Why did Jason say he supported Rob Ryan and then fired him a week later?

Why did Jason's brother get forced off the team?

Why did Jason go into cry baby mode, which was reported by 3 different outlets, when Jerry made the trade yesterday?

Why did Jason give up play calling duties despite trying his hardest to hold onto them?

I'll tell you why -- because Jerry is in charge. Jerry runs the show. These can all be backed up by reports and facts, not speculation which is the basis of everything you write.

You come in here with your Rah Rah rants to try and inspire the fan base which is fine & dandy but its FICTION.

Some of us like to live in the real world and realize this team hasn't been a legitimate contender since 1996.

One of the greatest franchises in all of sports has been run into the ground by a tyrannical owner over and over and over again.

Much like Al Davis and the Raiders, the Cowboys will not return to prominence until Jerry is dead.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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Understand, the problem isn't necessarily with Frederick, because the Cowboys definitely need help on the offensive line.

The problem is it feels like the Cowboys wasted an opportunity to get a much more talented player with the 18th pick -- and they still could've had Frederick, the top-rated center and 70th-rated prospect according to ESPN's player rankings. Or somebody just as good, such as California's Brian Schwenke (ranked 72nd) or Alabama's Barrett Jones (ranked 97th) in the second round.

Sound famiiar?

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/...ings-questions


this team's track record of poor drafting and questionable decision-making doesn't instill much confidence that they got it right Thursday.
While I agree the Cowboys have had issues drafting, citing ESPN attempting to validate that point is the worst way to do it. Half of their "evaluations" are based off the misinformation perpetuated by the teams throughout the season.

My final point is this: Dallas fans simply value flash over anything else. Last season, no one complained when Dallas traded up for Claiborne when it was a pretty deep class of corners and they could have still landed a quality one in the 2nd WHILE also having the best guard prospect in a decade (David DeCastro). Now though, because ESPN or some other service has overvalued Floyd and we passed on him, folks are losing their minds! Frederick is probably the top center in this draft and you can't convince a sane person that the top center doesn't get selected until the 3rd round in a year when draft has it's weakest crop of 1st round talents EVER.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Jason sucks too. He should have been fired.

But Jason isn't running the draft like you claim. You bend the argument to fit whatever you want.

"Oh Jerry is making the trade but Jason is making the picks"

How the **** do you know? Because you said so?

Jason is a lame duck coach. He's a puppet. You either run the entire draft, or you don't. He doesn't. He isn't controlling the trades and he isn't controlling the picks.

Jimmy made the picks AND the trades.

Bill didnt have full control either. Again, if you knew your history, you would know Bill was overruled on Kevin Williams in favor or Terence Newman and Bill was overruled on Marcus Spears in favor of Demarcus Ware.

Jerry has been in control since Jimmy left. That's why Jimmy left. Because Jerry was a cancer he couldn't stop.
The problem with your argument is that you're trying to put the blame/credit on ONE person for ALL the moves. That's just not the way it works. It's not that black and white. There isn't just one guy who does the research, one guy that makes the trade, one guy that makes the pick...one guy who does it all.

Yeah Bill was overruled on some decisions (like you mentioned), but you won't find a person who knows what they're talking about say that Bill didn't pick players in the draft that HE wanted.... and no one will say that Bill wasn't a part of turning this team around from 3 straight 5-11 seasons and not give him any credit for his ability to evaluate talent.

When you look at criticizing the Cowboys drafts, you need to look at all the guys in the room. They work as a team, not individually.

Since Jason has been in the room, I can't bash his history. Not every pick has panned out, but when you look at Sean Lee, Bruce Carter, Mo Claiborne, Tyrone Crawford, Sean Lissemore, Tyron Smith, DeMarco Murray, Dwayne Harris in the last 2 drafts, then I'm willing to follow him this year.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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And D-Unit, the reason I attack you is because you fabricate things. You completely make stuff up.

"This is Jason's team" "Jason runs the draft" "Jason made the coaching change"

Why did Jason say he supported Rob Ryan and then fired him a week later?

Why did Jason's brother get forced off the team?

Why did Jason go into cry baby mode, which was reported by 3 different outlets, when Jerry made the trade yesterday?

Why did Jason give up play calling duties despite trying his hardest to hold onto them?

I'll tell you why -- because Jerry is in charge. Jerry runs the show. These can all be backed up by reports and facts, not speculation which is the basis of everything you write.

You come in here with your Rah Rah rants to try and inspire the fan base which is fine & dandy but its FICTION.

Some of us like to live in the real world and realize this team hasn't been a legitimate contender since 1996.

One of the greatest franchises in all of sports has been run into the ground by a tyrannical owner over and over and over again.

Much like Al Davis and the Raiders, the Cowboys will not return to prominence until Jerry is dead.
When I say stuff, it's what I think I'm seeing. I'm not a reporter for what the Cowboys are doing. I can only make up what I think. I can't make up what the Cowboys are thinking.

What I meant by Jason Garrett running the draft is that I think he plays the biggest role in picking the players. What I meant by Jerry Jones controlling trades, is exactly that. But it's what "I think"... Certainly looks to be the case if you look at it.... That IS WHY Garrett didn't appear to be on board with the trade. But I saw his face and saw what was going in the War Room. It was on camera live. This year though, Jerry wasn't even in the room. Stephen made that trade through and through. ...and afterwards, he was bent over leaning on his knees facing Jason and it appeared he was trying to convince Jason of the logic of this trade. But when it came to picking Frederick Jason was all over that and was ALL SMILES.

Nobody is foolish enough to believe Jason controls the entire coaching staff. That's Jerry's World too. Oh but before I start to make things up I should preface that with "I think" Jerry controls the hiring and firing of the coaches and their responsibilities. LOL.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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128-128 record since 1997 with one playoff win.

The one constent? Jerry! Its Jerrys show and he doesnt know how to run it. Ive tried to defend him, Ive argued for him, but the same thing happens over and over. He just doesnt get it. I love seeing your writeups of best avalible and who we should take ect. Then when 5-6 guys are sitting there and your thinking man were going to get a good one here and the pick comes in and its some guy from a D2 school nobody has ever heard of, you think Wow what a letdown. Then you start to research him and find most people had a 7th/FA grade on him its like WTF...Then the fans find clips of him and try to put the spin on how good he can be and how smart our FO is and then 4 years down the road hes gone. Its just VERY frustrating as a fan. Travis may go to multible pro bowls but it was a bad pick because the value wasnt there and we had players rated higher than he was, we drafted for need and thats a bad way to draft IMO
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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Here's my wish list for the day:

2nd - DT - Short, Logan or Hill
3rd - S Swearinger or Thomas
3rd - RB - Bell or Randle
I heard we like Bell, and that intrigues me. He's a bigger guy but can catch really well, I can see him fitting in here. At least he has more upside then Stefan Taylor. 3rd is a bit early for a back-up RB though for our team and we still have other starting spots to fill. Ideally I think we want Murray to be almost a workhorse, he'll be in on short yardage, passing situations, etc, but just a guy for a breather.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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128-128 record since 1997 with one playoff win.

The one constent? Jerry! Its Jerrys show and he doesnt know how to run it. Ive tried to defend him, Ive argued for him, but the same thing happens over and over. He just doesnt get it. I love seeing your writeups of best avalible and who we should take ect. Then when 5-6 guys are sitting there and your thinking man were going to get a good one here and the pick comes in and its some guy from a D2 school nobody has ever heard of, you think Wow what a letdown. Then you start to research him and find most people had a 7th/FA grade on him its like WTF...Then the fans find clips of him and try to put the spin on how good he can be and how smart our FO is and then 4 years down the road hes gone. Its just VERY frustrating as a fan. Travis may go to multible pro bowls but it was a bad pick because the value wasnt there and we had players rated higher than he was, we drafted for need and thats a bad way to draft IMO
The draft is an inexact science and it's impossible to sit here and say he would've been there at our next pick with 100% assurety. We can't even tell who will bust and who won't. History has proven how high of a bust factor there is on DTs in Round 1. That's a damn scary position to be banking on. History is a lot more kind when it comes to 1st round Centers.

If you thought he would've been there at 47, then that's a 16 pick reach from 31. That's not exactly something to faint over.

I am upset at one thing still and that's not getting "enough". But that's being greedy cause we got more than some other teams. Like I said earlier.... I'd rather have Frederick and a 3rd than Pugh or Long by themselves. 19th and 20th picks respectively.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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Well Im on record as saying I would have taken Floyd at 18 and we'll see whos there at 47. Id be willing to bet someone comparable will be there. Its funny people using the "21 other teams passed on him, there must be a reason" about Floyd. How many teams passed on Moss, Rodgers, Sapp, ect... Doesnt mean hes a bum lol
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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Im not going to hope somebody falls to 47, chances are we wont take him. Less stuff winds up broke that way. I think Logan is a reach at 47 so thats who Im thinking we'll pick
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Well Im on record as saying I would have taken Floyd at 18 and we'll see whos there at 47. Id be willing to bet someone comparable will be there. Its funny people using the "21 other teams passed on him, there must be a reason" about Floyd. How many teams passed on Moss, Rodgers, Sapp, ect... Doesnt mean hes a bum lol
What I've learned is that the only real truth on a player's draft spot value is where he actually went. Projection is only a guessing game.

How they end up in their careers is a totally different ball game. It's easy to look back with hindsight and say where guys (Moss, Rodgers, Sapp) should've been taken. But you just don't know. For every hit like that, there is a miss. Probably more misses than hits!

Just look at it this way. Your boy Romo will get help in the middle where he hates pressure THE MOST!
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Im not going to hope somebody falls to 47, chances are we wont take him. Less stuff winds up broke that way. I think Logan is a reach at 47 so thats who Im thinking we'll pick
Sheesh man. I've never seen you so down. Hope you have a better day today! It's the NFL Draft! Good times!
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:46 PM    (permalink
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Sheesh man. I've never seen you so down. Hope you have a better day today! It's the NFL Draft! Good times!
Hahaha I know, Im soooo frustrated. Wish I felt as good about things as you do but Ive seen this to many times
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