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Old 06-05-2013, 02:15 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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I could totally see Littlfinger selling out the realm to the Bravosi down the line.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't underestimate Littlefinger.

Remember what Varys said about him to Lady Olenna?

"He would burn the whole realm, if he could be King of the ashes."
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Old 06-05-2013, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by brat316 View Post
tyrion lannister playing Chinese checkers or 3D chess then.
Tywin shits all over Tyrion, kinda makes me mad that he is the most popular character when is sadly one of the most boring

Though Shae can be blamed for 99% of that
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Old 06-05-2013, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Shae is the worst. Bronn is the best.
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Old 06-05-2013, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Right before they attacked Walder Frey said that he owed his new king and queen a wedding gift. Kinda makes me think that he was in on it.
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People do crazy things when they think their life is on the line.

I don't think Edmure was in on it but his Uncle might have been.
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Edmuire definitely wasn't in on it, neither was the Blackfish. He left to take a piss during the scene, that's how he escaped the massacre. It makes perfect sense for the Frey/Bolton/Lannister alliance to marry Edmuire to Frey's daughter and keep him as a hostage for the remainder of the war. They felled the Starks and married themselves into control of the Riverlands in one fell swoop. I guess we know who Tywin's been writing letters to all season long.
Isn't it possible that Edmure was killed too and they just didn't show it?
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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I liked how some posters here admitted they themselves were completely shocked by the Red Wedding, and then criticized Robb for not seeing it coming.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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I liked how some posters here admitted they themselves were completely shocked by the Red Wedding, and then criticized Robb for not seeing it coming.
I can understand that criticism even though I wouldn't have made it. Considering Rob is a character within the show and they are viewers with the perspective and biases of a tv viewer. Rob proved himself to be an able warrior but a very poor political thinker. When you consider all the mistakes he made with marrying talisa, killing karstark, wasting time going to his grandfathers funeral instead of focusing on the battle. Combined with Caetlyn freeing Jamie, the deal was sealed. I didn't fully see it coming, but I didn't like how easy it all was. At the beginning of the deal I was very sucpicious, but then the show lulled me in and surprised me in the moment. A character like Tywin, Littlefiner, Varus, etc would never have accepted a situation like that at face value.

From season 2 when I learned about Bolton's family symbol being the flayed man and learning that Ned had banned it, I wondered how the Bolton's could be trusted at all. If the essence of your house is flaying not only are you a sadistic untrustworthy house, banning it would be a huge dishonor/slap in the face. I actually thought, in the moment, that Bolton would try to take Caetlyn as his wife for some reason rather than kill her.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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I am kind of suprised from everything else we've heard about what happens to women in war that Cat was just killed. Wouldn't have been unplausible at all for someone to take her hostage or rape her that night.

But the ending of that episode was so awesome. I remember just sitting there in stunned silence. But after watching it happen, it shouldn't have surprised me at all. So many signs pointed to it, but I didn't pick up on them at all until afterward. Guess the same came be said for Robb.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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I can understand that criticism even though I wouldn't have made it. Considering Rob is a character within the show and they are viewers with the perspective and biases of a tv viewer. Rob proved himself to be an able warrior but a very poor political thinker. When you consider all the mistakes he made with marrying talisa, killing karstark, wasting time going to his grandfathers funeral instead of focusing on the battle. Combined with Caetlyn freeing Jamie, the deal was sealed. I didn't fully see it coming, but I didn't like how easy it all was. At the beginning of the deal I was very sucpicious, but then the show lulled me in and surprised me in the moment. A character like Tywin, Littlefiner, Varus, etc would never have accepted a situation like that at face value.
Marrying Talisa was a mistake. But I think you can quickly realize the average TV viewer is no smarter than Robb when it came to this marriage. Robb was completely aware that shunning the Frey girl would be a costly mistake, its not like he was oblivious. And if you go back, I'm sure you'll see many posters saying yep, that was the wrong move. But you'll also see how quickly most TV viewers forgot about it. How after the decision was made, pretty much no one mentioned it from there on until after this most recent episode, when hindsight was their ally. You'll notice none of the posters here commenting before the episode that Robb should be wary of trusting the Freys because of what he pulled.

Quite simply, the TV viewers who have condemned Robb for this apparent obvious mistake were just as oblivious themselves. The fact is, the Red Wedding is unprecedented in Westerosi history. I'm sure someone may want to whip out a Littlefinger or Cersei quote about the figurative game of thrones and talk about how Robb could and should have never trusted anyone, but that's because they're TV viewers given a convenient lens to analyze how things are occurring. In addition, he ate the Frey's bread, in the Frey's house. Guest right is perhaps the most sacred right in Westeros. As I said before, the ignoring of it in such a manner is completely unprecedented in the entirety of the history of Westeros.

As for Karstark, Robb was left with no good choice. If he kills Karstark as he did, he'll lose the Karstark support, and TV viewers will sit there and criticize him for that. Yet TV viewers are apparently quite quick to forgot how blatantly Karstark disregarded Robb's orders, in front of him and Robb's other bannermen. Perhaps TV viewers don't care that if Karstark had lived, Robb would have surrendered all legitimacy over his bannermen, and would have been subject to their less tactical and more impulsive and rash approach to war. Karstark is the one who deserves all of the blame for how that sequence of events unfolded, it was him who forced his liege lord into such an unnecessarily damning predicament.

As for the funeral, I may be forgetting something, but I fail to see what mistake was supposedly committed there.

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From season 2 when I learned about Bolton's family symbol being the flayed man and learning that Ned had banned it, I wondered how the Bolton's could be trusted at all. If the essence of your house is flaying not only are you a sadistic untrustworthy house, banning it would be a huge dishonor/slap in the face. I actually thought, in the moment, that Bolton would try to take Caetlyn as his wife for some reason rather than kill her.
Sadistic and untrustworthy are two completely different things. The Bolton's may have previously proved themselves cruel to their enemies, but that does not automatically mean they are not loyal to their allies. In addition, even if he did distrust the Bolton's, that's not really to relevant to the outcome of the Red Wedding.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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I honestly think Bolton was loyal to Robb until he realized that they weren't going to win.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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Boltons line about getting rich off his wife was at least a sign that he'd side with the winners/money. Returning Jamie and then this, Bolton has assured a spot on the obvious winners side in his eyes.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:54 PM    (permalink
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:19 PM    (permalink
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Shae is the worst. Bronn is the best.
If Shae disappeared, Tyrion would be so much more ******* awesome right now. She's the worst character on the show now that Cat is dead.

Isn't Tyrion technically Lord of Winterfell at the moment?
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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If Shae disappeared, Tyrion would be so much more ******* awesome right now. She's the worst character on the show now that Cat is dead.

Isn't Tyrion technically Lord of Winterfell at the moment?
I think Brann holds that honor. Although people think he's dead and thus yes Tyrion could man Winterfell.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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Isn't it possible Tywin gave Winterfell to Frey or Bolton?
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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And the winner


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Old 06-05-2013, 09:59 PM    (permalink
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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Isn't it possible Tywin gave Winterfell to Frey or Bolton?
I think Roose's bastard is currently in control of Winterfell and he already had control of the Dreadfort and Harrenhal
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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Isn't it possible Tywin gave Winterfell to Frey or Bolton?
No wai. Tywin wants more direct control over the North.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:08 PM    (permalink
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That might be Tywins long term plan, but I can see Bolton being expected to ride North and fight the Greyjoys with the promise of control in the North later.

At this point it looks like his long term plan is Tyrion in the North, Cersei in the South, and Jamie in the West out of Casterly Rock.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal View Post
That might be Tywins long term plan, but I can see Bolton being expected to ride North and fight the Greyjoys with the promise of control in the North later.

At this point it looks like his long term plan is Tyrion in the North, Sansa in the South, and Jamie in the West out of Casterly Rock.
You probably mean Cersei.

Tywin has an alliance with Highgarden and Dourn in the South, but none of the Lannisters are in charge there.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MaxV View Post
You probably mean Cersei.

Tywin has an alliance with Highgarden and Dourn in the South, but none of the Lannisters are in charge there.
They are attempting to marry Loras to Cerci so while she isn't in charge she will be in a significant power position.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:38 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal View Post
Boltons line about getting rich off his wife was at least a sign that he'd side with the winners/money. Returning Jamie and then this, Bolton has assured a spot on the obvious winners side in his eyes.
No, it's not. I don't know why people are hellbent on trying to come up with reasons why the Boltons were "obviously untrustworthy". Think back to when Walder Frey presented all of his potential wives. There wasn't a single attractive one among them. The fact is no one willingly marries a Frey. It always a part of some deal. Robb didn't want to marry one, Edmure didn't want to marry one, and Roose didn't want to marry one. Robb simply didn't marry one, Edmure simply lucked out because Walder wanted to spite Robb, and Roose simply choose the one who gave him the most money. Roose's approach wasn't much different from either Robb's or Edmure's.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:40 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MaxV View Post
You probably mean Cersei.

Tywin has an alliance with Highgarden and Dourn in the South, but none of the Lannisters are in charge there.
Yea Cersei. Marrying Loras and moving there. Though it doesn't seen he thinks very highly of his kids at this point, so he might not even want them to be anything more than pawns to get allies.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:42 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cigaro View Post
No, it's not. I don't know why people are hellbent on trying to come up with reasons why the Boltons were "obviously untrustworthy". Think back to when Walder Frey presented all of his potential wives. There wasn't a single attractive one among them. The fact is no one willingly marries a Frey. It always a part of some deal. Robb didn't want to marry one, Edmure didn't want to marry one, and Roose didn't want to marry one. Robb simply didn't marry one, Edmure simply lucked out because Walder wanted to spite Robb, and Roose simply choose the one who gave him the most money. Roose's approach wasn't much different from either Robb's or Edmure's.
I didn't say anything about him being "obviously untrustworthy," so no idea why that's in quotes. The point was in hindsight, signs were there that make it not really come out of no where.
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