The Official Training Camp thread.

[Splat]

Jonathan Baldwinning



Devon Wylie



Just put me in coach!



Eric Berryzzz!!!!



Come at me bro!

[WCH]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

I think by the end of the year, we won't be talking about Bruce Irvin as a reach.

Same way nobody called Chris Johnson a reach after his rookie year.

As long as he keeps himself out of trouble of course.

I agree. I think Irvin may have been the best pass rusher in the draft, and it's almost impossible to over-draft pass rushing talent.

[Rosebud]

Originally Posted by WCH

I agree. I think Irvin may have been the best pass rusher in the draft, and it's almost impossible to over-draft pass rushing talent.

Especially since Irvin is such a natural fit in the Clemons role, just off of his pure talents he should be able to tear **** up from that spot.

[BeerBaron]

It'll be an interesting experiment in selecting a guy who may be limited to being a situational pass rusher that high. Does today's pass-happy league justify taking someone like him that high or are there still enough teams out there who will run right at him to make it risky?

We're talking about a guy who weighed in at 245. I'm still uneasy about it.

[Rosebud]

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

It'll be an interesting experiment in selecting a guy who may be limited to being a situational pass rusher that high. Does today's pass-happy league justify taking someone like him that high or are there still enough teams out there who will run right at him to make it risky?

We're talking about a guy who weighed in at 245. I'm still uneasy about it.

Well firstly, in Pete Carroll's scheme the Clemons role isn't a "situational" one, but even if it was, with the way the NFL is, a situational pass rush is practically a starting player, it's the run stoppers that see less snaps because their specialized talents are need far less often.

Just look at the actual base formations for the giants and packers. It was the nickel, the SB champs and the team that went 15-1 in the regular season both used a situational sub-package as their primary defense.

[K Train]

blaine gabbert reportedly "not inspiring anyone"


thought some of you would enjoy that lol

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by Rosebud

Well firstly, in Pete Carroll's scheme the Clemons role isn't a "situational" one, but even if it was, with the way the NFL is, a situational pass rush is practically a starting player, it's the run stoppers that see less snaps because their specialized talents are need far less often.

Just look at the actual base formations for the giants and packers. It was the nickel, the SB champs and the team that went 15-1 in the regular season both used a situational sub-package as their primary defense.

I didn't do a good enough job of connecting the two points. Let me try to rephrase.

His build, the type of player he's going to be at the NFL level...these things are traits you would have found in a situational pass rusher as recently as a few years ago. More recently, "3-4" teams have been taking similar players to have as stand up linebackers for "two downs" and then put their hand down in pass rushing situations. (I use the quotes because, as we both know, the league is changing faster than the terminology.)

Now, with Irvin, Seattle is basically going to play one of those guys as a full time "4-3 DE." (Quote for the same reason as above.)

Now, if teams continue to try and pass wildly when the defense is fielding someone like that every down, he's probably going to be successful.

My thing is that, as an opposing play caller, I'd try to attack him with runs. I've been saying for several offseasons now that some team is going to flip the script on these defenses that have been getting progressively smaller and faster. It might not be there yet, but at some point, I expect some team to come out running the ball with overpowering lineman and a big back and find a lot of success against tiny defenses.

Because of the current rules, there is no way we ever get back to a league dominated by ground and pound attacks. But a team or two here or there (and no, the Broncos last year do NOT count as an example of this, they were gimmick, nothing more) is going to find some success with this approach.

Originally Posted by K Train

blaine gabbert reportedly "not inspiring anyone"


thought some of you would enjoy that lol

Paint me surprised.

[K Train]

skelton vs kolb, gabbert vs henne, or garrard vs moore vs tannehill, flynn vs jackson vs wilson....which is more exciting mediocrity???????????????????????????????????

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by K Train

skelton vs kolb, gabbert vs henne, or garrard vs moore vs tannehill, flynn vs jackson vs wilson....which is more exciting mediocrity???????????????????????????????????

Well, the latter 2 have a rookie in the mix (plus Seattle with Flynn) who haven't proven to be completely terrible yet. So there is some hope there.

The first two....blegh. I think I'd rather resign than deal with those two situations.

[Rosebud]

The Seahawks have a huge DL playing in front of him so I'm not too sure that the running game will be a weakness for them, unless they pushed Clemons down onto the line to make room for Irvin, but as Denver showed running a similar scheme with Doom and Miller, where Doom had his hand in the dirt and Miller played very close to the LOS, even that can work and the seahawks other DL are much better run stuffer than Denver had.

I do in general agree that as the league keeps getting smaller and faster it makes itself more susceptible to power running, just look at those same Broncos once again, but the Seahawks aren't one of those teams that's most fragile, and really I think that a power-run heavy team isn't very likely to take over the NFL any time soon. They'll need a good enough passing game to keep teams from going into their situational run stuffing formations, read "base" defense, and against all but the very best pass defenses, the benefits of throwing the ball if you have a good passing game far outweigh the benefits of running the ball in this NFL. Ultimately the running game's greatest benefit will remain keeping a team balanced and opening things up for the passing game.

[jrdrylie]

Originally Posted by K Train

blaine gabbert reportedly "not inspiring anyone"


thought some of you would enjoy that lol

Ehh, I've talked to a bunch of people who have been to the Jaguars training camp and saw them scrimmage and I've heard the exact opposite. I've heard he's looked much improved, he isn't quite as big of a ***** in the pocket, he is showing command in the huddle, and has distanced himself from Henne.

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by jrdrylie

Ehh, I've talked to a bunch of people who have been to the Jaguars training camp and saw them scrimmage and I've heard the exact opposite. I've heard he's looked much improved, he isn't quite as big of a ***** in the pocket, he is showing command in the huddle, and has distanced himself from Henne.

I'm sure that people going to Jaguars scrimmage (presumably willingly) are excellent sources of objective opinions. And even if he's not terrible, he's protected by the fact that he's in a red jersey. So many QBs are superstars in the red jersey. It's too bad they don't get to wear it on game days....yet.

I think we'll see Chad Henne starting by the end of the year, is where I'm going with this.

[NY+Giants=NYG]

Jets players brawl on sideline
http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/stor...-team-practice

[K Train]

Originally Posted by jrdrylie

Ehh, I've talked to a bunch of people who have been to the Jaguars training camp and saw them scrimmage and I've heard the exact opposite. I've heard he's looked much improved, he isn't quite as big of a ***** in the pocket, he is showing command in the huddle, and has distanced himself from Henne.

people attend jags camp? who knew?

anyway hes the article excerpt

ESPN’s Paul Kuharsky writes that although Jaguars QB Blaine Gabbert had some “nice moments,” the overall feeling is that he will struggle next season and is fairly skeptical about his improvement moving forward. Gabbert did have his moments but too often things would fall apart. “A kneel-down would seem less disheartening in many of those instances,” writes Kuharsky. Major consistency issues, especially when facing a pass rush, could hamper the second year quarterback who will be trying to rebuild his confidence under a new offensive system after a mediocre start to his NFL career.

http://nfltraderumors.co/blaine-gabb...nyone-at-camp/

[gpngc]

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

I didn't do a good enough job of connecting the two points. Let me try to rephrase.

His build, the type of player he's going to be at the NFL level...these things are traits you would have found in a situational pass rusher as recently as a few years ago. More recently, "3-4" teams have been taking similar players to have as stand up linebackers for "two downs" and then put their hand down in pass rushing situations. (I use the quotes because, as we both know, the league is changing faster than the terminology.)

Now, with Irvin, Seattle is basically going to play one of those guys as a full time "4-3 DE." (Quote for the same reason as above.)

Now, if teams continue to try and pass wildly when the defense is fielding someone like that every down, he's probably going to be successful.

My thing is that, as an opposing play caller, I'd try to attack him with runs. I've been saying for several offseasons now that some team is going to flip the script on these defenses that have been getting progressively smaller and faster. It might not be there yet, but at some point, I expect some team to come out running the ball with overpowering lineman and a big back and find a lot of success against tiny defenses.

Because of the current rules, there is no way we ever get back to a league dominated by ground and pound attacks. But a team or two here or there (and no, the Broncos last year do NOT count as an example of this, they were gimmick, nothing more) is going to find some success with this approach.



Paint me surprised.

Chris Clemons weighs 254 pounds as the Seahawks starting LEO/RDE. With him as an every-down DE, they ranked 4th in the league in run defense, averaging 3.8 ypc against. Irvin weighs about 250.

You will try to run at Clemons, because obviously you aren't running near Red Bryant, the premiere run-stuffing DE in football.

Now your opponent knows where you're running and can stack that side or run blitz the C gap or bring LBs on the edge. Then you try to run to the right and there's Mebane/Branch/Bryant in that order, 1000 pounds of run-stop.

If Irvin busts, it won't be because of his size. People just think his size is an issue because:

A) He played DE in a 3-man front at WVU.
B) They don't know Seattle's defensive scheme or personnel.

[jrdrylie]

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

I'm sure that people going to Jaguars scrimmage (presumably willingly) are excellent sources of objective opinions. And even if he's not terrible, he's protected by the fact that he's in a red jersey. So many QBs are superstars in the red jersey. It's too bad they don't get to wear it on game days....yet.

I think we'll see Chad Henne starting by the end of the year, is where I'm going with this.

Some were admittedly Gabbert apologists. Others were journalists, bloggers, and other such people who have not been easy on Gabbert in the past.

Also, that article cited by K Train mentions that Gabbert has had some "nice moments." That alone is a vast improvement considering the fact that I watched every Jaguars game last season and Gabbert had only 2 or 3 "nice moments" all season. I still think he'll bust, but I think he'll imporve from ungodly awful to below average, similar to Tarvaris Jackson's 2011 numbers, this year (assuming MJD plays, if not, it's going to be ugly).

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by jrdrylie

Some were admittedly Gabbert apologists. Others were journalists, bloggers, and other such people who have not been easy on Gabbert in the past.

Also, that article cited by K Train mentions that Gabbert has had some "nice moments." That alone is a vast improvement considering the fact that I watched every Jaguars game last season and Gabbert had only 2 or 3 "nice moments" all season. I still think he'll bust, but I think he'll imporve from ungodly awful to below average, similar to Tarvaris Jackson's 2011 numbers, this year (assuming MJD plays, if not, it's going to be ugly).

The difference is that Jackson was a gross reach of a 2nd round pick and shouldn't have been starting when he was. Gabbert was a high first round pick in an era where almost all high first round pick QBs start early and are expected to, at minimum, not be laughably terrible.

After the "nice moments" bit, it goes to say: "A kneel-down would seem less disheartening in many of those instances."

Having to state something like that about any pro QB is a horrible condemnation. Regardless of whatever positives are garnered out of those "nice moments," the 2nd line is just so negative that it cancels anything positive right out.

[Brothgar]

Any rookie TE's not named fleener impressing at camp?

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

It'll be an interesting experiment in selecting a guy who may be limited to being a situational pass rusher that high. Does today's pass-happy league justify taking someone like him that high or are there still enough teams out there who will run right at him to make it risky?

We're talking about a guy who weighed in at 245. I'm still uneasy about it.

There's no such thing as a situational pass rusher anymore.

The situational players in today's game are run specialists. You play the pass all 3 downs now.

[K Train]

Originally Posted by broth223

Any rookie TE's not named fleener impressing at camp?

is fleener impressing? i think hes my dude in fantasy at TE this year lol

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

There's no such thing as a situational pass rusher anymore.

The situational players in today's game are run specialists. You play the pass all 3 downs now.

My next post down went into more detail about that.

I guess my overall, overarching point, is that how Irvin does will be a nice sample for future similar players and how they will be utilized.

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by gpngc

Chris Clemons weighs 254 pounds as the Seahawks starting LEO/RDE. With him as an every-down DE, they ranked 4th in the league in run defense, averaging 3.8 ypc against. Irvin weighs about 250.

You will try to run at Clemons, because obviously you aren't running near Red Bryant, the premiere run-stuffing DE in football.

Now your opponent knows where you're running and can stack that side or run blitz the C gap or bring LBs on the edge. Then you try to run to the right and there's Mebane/Branch/Bryant in that order, 1000 pounds of run-stop.

If Irvin busts, it won't be because of his size. People just think his size is an issue because:

A) He played DE in a 3-man front at WVU.
B) They don't know Seattle's defensive scheme or personnel.

This, this and this.

Seattle's front is not traditional. They go very heavy on one side and stack the other. It's an interesting defense.

Pete Carrol doesn't get enough credit for being a great defensive mind.

[Bengals78]

Originally Posted by broth223

Any rookie TE's not named fleener impressing at camp?

Ive heard mostly good from Orson Charles. He looked good in Oklahoma drills and has been solid as a pass catcher

[SolidGold]

The Jets shitshow keeps on rolling:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/stor...-team-practice

[armageddon]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

There's no such thing as a situational pass rusher anymore.

The situational players in today's game are run specialists. You play the pass all 3 downs now.

That's so true. But I do think you have to at least try to stop the run on 1st down. I don't think you want your pass rushing specialists in there on 1st down. Teams will run the ball down your throat.