Week 4 Discussion Thread

[Ravens1991]

Originally Posted by K Train

i thought little had some of the best hands in the draft last year, damn that guy has some serious pro dropsies

I remember thinking that too. WTF happened? I remember wanting him over Torrey Smith because both were raw athletic freaks I said lets go w/ the WR with the more natural hands. Im glad im not the Ravens GM

[Raiderz4Life]

He's been having drop issues since last year. Won't be very good imo.

I did miss the game cuz of my night class. Someone fill me in....how did Weeden look?

[Saints-Tigers]

"Of Alex Smith’s 92 pass attempts, only four have traveled 20 yards or more downfield to a wide receiver."

[Borat]

Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers

"Of Alex Smith’s 92 pass attempts, only four have traveled 20 yards or more downfield to a wide receiver."

Four? I can only remember two lol.

[Saints-Tigers]

To be fair, it says he targeted Vernon Davis 3 times past 20 yards too.

How long till Randy flips ****?

[Cudders]

Frustrating game. Thought the Browns had a legitimate shot at pulling off the upset given the circumstances. Just couldn’t execute when it mattered. That was the difference between these two teams. The better team made things happen when things needed to happen.

First and foremost, Weeden was serviceable. That brings his ledger to one above-average, one average, one below-average, and one unspeakable performance. He’s got arm talent to work with. He can make stick throws in this league. Those are the positives. But there’s still a bunch of head-scratching moments. The pick six was killer. He bird-dogged Benjamin from the snap of the ball to the time it left his hand and then missed his mark. Those quick out are all about precision. Precise protection, precise pattern, precise placement. The protection was there. The left side anchored and cleared a wide throwing lane. The pattern was there. Benjamin ran a solid route and snapped his head back to the football out of his break. The placement was not there. After staring down his target, he doubled-down and left the ball inside. Pro cornerbacks are going to capitalize. That needed to be a fastball on the outside corner. Either Benjamin gets it or no one gets it.

The bottom-line is that Weeden needs to minimize his variance. I get that he is a rookie. Mistakes are unavoidable. He was billed as a near polished product though and he’s not. With such a short shelf life, I don’t know if he’s worth the continued cost of development. We’re just through the first block of the season, and there’s still a lot of football left, but quarterback shouldn’t be tabled for the Browns. I need even more than intermittent flashes from Weeden. I need tangible production.

As for his receiving corps, it’s not ideal. In fact, it’s one of the worst groupings in the league. That said, Weeden has still struggled with utilizing the talent at his disposal. Travis Benjamin is a speed demon that adds a different dimension to the offense. But Weeden has lofted him jump-balls on more than one occasion. Benjamin is 5-10. That’s not his role. Lower the angle. Put him in a position to use his athleticism after the catch. There are other candidates better suited to those situations. Greg Little is big, strong, and fast, but his lapses in concentration are maddening. He can make a smooth grab and then drop the most catchable ball thrown to him. He needs someone molding his mindset as much as his on-field skill set. Josh Gordon is another receiver with tools that needs polishing in the finer points. Jordan Cameron has matchup potential in the NFL. Some of these H/W/S specimens need to step up and pan out.

A few other things:

1.) Even though Childress is the offensive coordinator, he’s not calling the shots. Shurmur is making those decisions. Childress charts and offers input from the booth.

2.) Trent Richardson is a great cornerstone. He’s a dangerous high-volume runner that’s developing into a complete back. I expect him to take over the third-down role full-time soon. Even in passing situations, he’s a weapon that must be accounted for. The Browns need their weapons on the field.

3.) Cleveland is building quiet depth in the trenches. Ahtyba Rubin is more than just a one-dimensional space-eater. Phil Taylor has impressive short-area suddenness for a man of his size. Combined, those two form an imposing interior. No offensive line, no matter how talented, wants to deal with two mammoths in the middle. The early returns on Billy Winn look promising, too. Jabaal Sheard is a relentless end. One premier pass-rusher and this line takes the next step.

On offense, the right guard spot needs upgraded. Shawn Lauvao just isn’t starter material. He’s a shield-blocker that can’t anchor or push. He needs to be replaced. An upgrade at left guard wouldn’t hurt either, but it’s easier to hide someone between Joe Thomas and Alex Mack.

The talent base is there though.

Couple Baltimore notes:

1.) Few things amaze me in the NFL, but the fact that defensive coordinators still revert to conservative coverage shells in late-game situations is one of them. I will never understand it for the life of me. The Browns weren’t launching what I would call a fluid passing attack. Whatever Cleveland got through the air, Cleveland had to claw for. So what’s the reasoning behind changing their approach? Your offense and specials handed a rookie quarterback and below-average receivers a long field with a little over a minute left and no timeouts. You have one of the best secondaries in the NFL. Make them earn their field position. Don’t surrender it. Because of some uncontested crossing routes, the Browns were in a position to tie it up. I don’t understand it.

2.) Cam Cameron was the recipient of a lot of hate in this thread for not running the ball. Some factors to consider:

A.) A short turnaround. The Ravens were coming off a tough game and a shorter than usual week. In their previous game, Rice had 25 touches. It’s clear that Rice is vital to their season’s success. You want to keep him fresh, so I wouldn’t doubt that there was some internal discussion of capping his carries. Tonight, Rice still had 26 touches.

B.) A demanding stretch. The Ravens started the season with four games in less than three weeks. To the first point, it’s important that Baltimore doesn’t run him down. Exposing their star runner to a lot of hits in a short period of time isn’t conducive to their long-term goals.

C.) A lack of production. It’s not like Rice was busting long runs all night long and then Cameron just started to neglect him. Rice averaged less than 3 YPC tonight. In fact, I thought Baltimore made some smart adjustments in that regard. The Browns geared their fronts toward plugging the run and the Ravens countered with their short passing game. Got Rice in space and used it as an extension of the running game.

D.) A concerted effort. One of the Ravens’ overall offensive objectives is to incorporate more no-huddle and vertical concepts. Installing things like that takes in-game repetitions. It doesn’t just come to an offense. Baltimore was facing a thin defensive backfield in Cleveland and was still experiencing some success moving the ball through the air. As a coach, those are prized opportunities.

[bantx]

Can you say that in 4 sentences.

[Ness]

The Weeden hate has gotten out of hand. He's a rookie on a bad team people. Considering the circumstances he's looked okay.

[MetSox17]

Missed most of the game, but in the 4th quarter, i got to see Haloti Ngata just completely eat the RG and C alive consistently. You can't help but love that guy, he's an absolute freak. He makes offensive linemen look like runningbacks trying to block him.

[abaddon41_80]

Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers

"Of Alex Smith’s 92 pass attempts, only four have traveled 20 yards or more downfield to a wide receiver."

Well, at least he has completed three of them for 62 yards. Besides, the 49ers run a very WC-style offense. They just don't have many plays where receivers even go deep, not to mention their receivers that see the most action, Crabtree and Manningham, aren't exactly deep threats. Moss has only been in the game on about 60 plays and the 49ers have run the ball on about half of those.

The problem is not that Smith can't throw the deep ball, it is that he doesn't throw jump balls. Smith will almost never throw the ball to a well-covered receiver and hope the receiver makes a play on the ball. Moss just isn't getting open and while other QBs might just throw it to him anyway, that isn't Smith. He is not used to receivers making plays for him.

I don't believe Moss will get upset, either, at least if the 49ers keep doing well. I think he realizes this is his last real chance at winning a Super Bowl and he doesn't want to screw it up by opening his mouth and getting cut. Part of the reason I think Harbaugh has played him so little is to make sure he knows that we don't need him.

[Giantsfan1080]

Cudders,

Rice had a terrible average because they would run the ball in such obvious running situations the Browns knew what was coming. I agree you need to keep him fresh but the situation play calling from Cameron is just so awful. I'd limit his catches a little and let him run a bit more.

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by Ness

The Weeden hate has gotten out of hand. He's a rookie on a bad team people. Considering the circumstances he's looked okay.

Hate is a poor choice of words. I tend to think and agree with:

Originally Posted by Cudders

The bottom-line is that Weeden needs to minimize his variance. I get that he is a rookie. Mistakes are unavoidable. He was billed as a near polished product though and he’s not. With such a short shelf life, I don’t know if he’s worth the continued cost of development. We’re just through the first block of the season, and there’s still a lot of football left, but quarterback shouldn’t be tabled for the Browns. I need even more than intermittent flashes from Weeden. I need tangible production.

It's entirely possible that a house cleaning could be coming to Cleveland this offseason. New ownership means Holmgren could be out as CEO, which could lead to a gutting of everyone from the GM downward.

If that is the case, a new coaching staff could very easily decide that a 29 year old 2nd year QB coming off of a below average rookie season (relative to the rookie seasons other QBs have been putting up lately) just isn't worth the continued development.

That means another wasted high draft pick for Cleveland and the start of yet another QB development cycle with someone else.

[Rosebud]

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Well, at least he has completed three of them for 62 yards. Besides, the 49ers run a very WC-style offense. They just don't have many plays where receivers even go deep, not to mention their receivers that see the most action, Crabtree and Manningham, aren't exactly deep threats. Moss has only been in the game on about 60 plays and the 49ers have run the ball on about half of those.

The problem is not that Smith can't throw the deep ball, it is that he doesn't throw jump balls. Smith will almost never throw the ball to a well-covered receiver and hope the receiver makes a play on the ball. Moss just isn't getting open and while other QBs might just throw it to him anyway, that isn't Smith. He is not used to receivers making plays for him.

I don't believe Moss will get upset, either, at least if the 49ers keep doing well. I think he realizes this is his last real chance at winning a Super Bowl and he doesn't want to screw it up by opening his mouth and getting cut. Part of the reason I think Harbaugh has played him so little is to make sure he knows that we don't need him.

Mario Manningham isn't a deep threat? You're lucky you said Shaun Hill was a top 20 QB, cause otherwise that'd be the most absurd thing you said...this week...

[LonghornsLegend]

Originally Posted by Ness

The Weeden hate has gotten out of hand. He's a rookie on a bad team people. Considering the circumstances he's looked okay.

Not only that, but people act like it's easy to play QB vs the Ravens when you have WR's that continually drop passes. I mean, nearly every one of Little' drops were pin point accurate passes on the dime where only the WR could catch the ball, and one was a huge would be TD. Yet all you hear is Weeden suckszzzzorszzz. He'll probably be replaced by whatever QB they get with the #1 pick but let's not pile on considering how nicely some of those passes were thrown and how Ngata just destroyed everything in his path.



On a further note, the trend the NFL is taking is weird. Both these QB's threw the ball 50 times, yet Rice & Richardson ran it like 13. Really? In what was a close game? That's just ridiculous.

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers

"Of Alex Smith’s 92 pass attempts, only four have traveled 20 yards or more downfield to a wide receiver."

[abaddon41_80]

Originally Posted by Rosebud

Mario Manningham isn't a deep threat? You're lucky you said Shaun Hill was a top 20 QB, cause otherwise that'd be the most absurd thing you said...this week...

Manningham's career yards per catch is 14.1, 30th of active NFL receivers, lower than the likes of such deep threats as Sidney Rice and Roy Williams and about equal to that of speedsters Marques Colston and Brandon Stokley.

Some quarterbacks percentage air yards ((total yards - YAC) / total yards) for last season,

Eli - 56%
Roethlisberger - 54%
Brees - 54%
Smith - 53%
Rodgers - 53%
Stafford - 52%
Newton - 52%
Romo - 52%
Brady - 48%

If Smith is just a bus driver who only throws short what does that make these guys?

[BuckeyeDan17]

I hope they made Greg little ******* walk home today. We have young players to move forward with I hope when the new fo comes in they don't completely blow it up.

[Giantsfan1080]

Statistically this is the worst Baltimore Ravens passing defense in the history of their franchise through 4 games.

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Statistically this is the worst Baltimore Ravens passing defense in the history of their franchise through 4 games.

I wonder if they miss a certain DPotY getting after the passer and shortening the length of time that secondary has to cover...

[BeerBaron]

Well there goes the Texans great defense...

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans...art-if-needed/

If Joseph can’t play, that could mean Alan Ball starts for him at corner.

“Alan can play,” defensive coordinator Wade Phillips said. “That’s what we brought him in for. He hasn’t played corner in a couple years so getting the technique stuff and I think he’s really getting it down better and better. He had two or three interceptions in practice today.”

Alan Ball might be able to go run around on the field but he certainly cannot "play." Wade Phillips must be going senile.

[abaddon41_80]

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Statistically this is the worst Baltimore Ravens passing defense in the history of their franchise through 4 games.

Maybe in terms of yardage but they have allowed the least passing touchdowns in the league and are top 10 in QB rating and completion percentage.

[killxswitch]

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

Well there goes the Texans great defense...

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans...art-if-needed/



Alan Ball might be able to go run around on the field but he certainly cannot "play." Wade Phillips must be going senile.

Or he's just talking his guy up. Though he must've been the one that wanted him given his experience in Dallas. He must see something that most others don't.

[BeerBaron]

Originally Posted by killxswitch

Or he's just talking his guy up. Though he must've been the one that wanted him given his experience in Dallas. He must see something that most others don't.

"Others" being anyone who has ever watched him play with the apparent exception of Wade Phillips.

He's in my "top 3 CBs to make fun of" along with Frank Walker and Alphonso Smith for a very good reason.

[LonghornsLegend]

Originally Posted by BeerBaron

Well there goes the Texans great defense...

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans...art-if-needed/



Alan Ball might be able to go run around on the field but he certainly cannot "play." Wade Phillips must be going senile.

LOL @ Wade Phillips talking up Alan Ball. It doesn't get much better then that.

Originally Posted by killxswitch

Or he's just talking his guy up. Though he must've been the one that wanted him given his experience in Dallas. [b] He must see something that most others don't.[b/]

True. He got to witness every single easy completion that Alan Ball gave up in his career while he was the HC and DC in Dallas, while most others only saw the few they got to laugh at on Sportscenter or a prime time game. Alan Ball is one of the worst CB's I've ever witnessed in my life, keep in mind Frank Walker also played CB for us the same time as Alan Ball(quality secondary eh) but it doesn't get much worse. Yes he also tops Jacque Reeves for attrocious play. I can't think of one area he's solid in.



It became a joke once DC's found out, so whenever he came on the field, no matter who he was covering, became option #1. It was the funniest thing I've ever witnessed.


http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...3jvH_I_IBd3eVV


Just watch the good times roll if he has to start.

[Giantsfan1080]

If we include all DB's then CC Brown certainly has to be #1 on that list. I still can't believe a smart GM like Reese even had him on our roster for a year. I've never seen anyone so bad and I saw Freaky Frank play for years.