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Old 02-11-2013, 05:17 PM    (permalink
vidae
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If the Chiefs believe in Geno they don't believe they are top 5 again in 2014. Luck and RG3 took their teams to the playoffs as rookies. that's what a franchise QB is expected to do. If Geno gets picked (anywhere) and the chiefs are just as bad, that's a fire able decision by Andy.
So all rookie QBs are supposed to have Andrew Luck/RG3/Russell Wilson type impacts as rookies? Did you really just say that?

This goes to show that some people cannot evaluate the QB position, at all. Some people are unable to look at 2012 and realize what an aberration it was in terms of QB prospects and production.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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If the Chiefs believe in Geno they don't believe they are top 5 again in 2014. Luck and RG3 took their teams to the playoffs as rookies. that's what a franchise QB is expected to do. If Geno gets picked (anywhere) and the chiefs are just as bad, that's a fire able decision by Andy.
This is just wrong.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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So all rookie QBs are supposed to have Andrew Luck/RG3/Russell Wilson type impacts as rookies? Did you really just say that?

This goes to show that some people cannot evaluate the QB position, at all. Some people are unable to look at 2012 and realize what an aberration it was in terms of QB prospects and production.
I really don't hate Smith as a QB prospect. He very well could be like Luck/RG3/Wilson or not. I just don't know. I have reasons for doubt, like I have for every prospect.

My main thing... and I think bitoni and PF are saying the same thing... is that we just don't like him as the #1 overall prospect. Whenever that is said, Geno supporters are attacking those doubts like we are knocking the player. Then when we retaliate, we end up arguing why we we don't like the player when in fact, it's not that we hate his talent so much, but rather we're disagreeing with his value. There is a subtle but significant difference in the argument.

I like Reid's experience coaching QB prospects up. I like Geno's raw ability. But when I look at his value, I don't see #1 overall type talent. I agree it's a #1 overall type need, but that also makes taking him a reach. But of course, the response will be "when it's your #1 need, it's not a reach". There's some truth to that. There's also some truth that it's a reach. Both sides are right.

This thread is ...
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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If the Chiefs believe in Geno they don't believe they are top 5 again in 2014. Luck and RG3 took their teams to the playoffs as rookies. that's what a franchise QB is expected to do. If Geno gets picked (anywhere) and the chiefs are just as bad, that's a fire able decision by Andy.
By this definition, there are I think 6 franchise QBs in the entire league.

Luck
Russell
RGIII
Flacco
Ryan
Roethlisberger

edit: oh. and Andy Dalton. I wonder if Mike Brown is going to call Green Bay and try to trade his "franchise" QB for that scrub non-franchise QB they have out there.

Last edited by Monomach : 02-11-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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One thing I've thought about. Is the QB position now easier to play? Is it harder to bust? Is the success of 2nd and 3rd round picks like Kaepernick, Dalton, and Wilson the new norm or are they still outliers?
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:15 PM    (permalink
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One thing I've thought about. Is the QB position now easier to play? Is it harder to bust? Is the success of 2nd and 3rd round picks like Kaepernick, Dalton, and Wilson the new norm or are they still outliers?
The rule changes have made it easier for sure. But I also think quarterbacks are just more "NFL ready" coming out of college vs the past. They're being developed better.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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One thing I've thought about. Is the QB position now easier to play? Is it harder to bust? Is the success of 2nd and 3rd round picks like Kaepernick, Dalton, and Wilson the new norm or are they still outliers?

dont think so; think it has to do with the training these qbs have; with all the qb camps, qb coaches, they are receiving more coaching than qbs of 10-15 years ago

that and with the spread offense concepts coming to the nfl, you are having qbs that have run the same system for 6-7 years when they get drafted (hs-college)
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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I should have said, is it easier to succeed instead of play.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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One thing I've thought about. Is the QB position now easier to play? Is it harder to bust? Is the success of 2nd and 3rd round picks like Kaepernick, Dalton, and Wilson the new norm or are they still outliers?
Gabbert, Locker, and Ponder.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:27 PM    (permalink
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Gabbert, Locker, and Ponder.
Point taken. Not it matters but I felt all three of those were over drafted at the time.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:57 AM    (permalink
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I wonder if Mike Brown is going to call Green Bay and try to trade his "franchise" QB for that scrub non-franchise QB they have out there.
Aaron Rodgers didn't go 1 overall, thanks for proving my point.

if the Chiefs take Geno Smith with a late first round pick and sit him for 3 years, I have no problem with that.

as D-Unit said I don't hate Geno, i just don't like him at 1. Yes every year late 1st/early 2nd round graded QBs get pushed up the board.

but they don't get pushed all the way up to 1. My problem is the value of this player. at 15 or 20, go nuts. at 1 it's a terrible reach.

i'd love to hear a Geno fan explain why he sucked so badly in the Syracuse game or in the other 4 games he was terrible in this year.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:10 AM    (permalink
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Aaron Rodgers didn't go 1 overall, thanks for proving my point.

if the Chiefs take Geno Smith with a late first round pick and sit him for 3 years, I have no problem with that.

as D-Unit said I don't hate Geno, i just don't like him at 1. Yes every year late 1st/early 2nd round graded QBs get pushed up the board.

but they don't get pushed all the way up to 1. My problem is the value of this player. at 15 or 20, go nuts. at 1 it's a terrible reach.

i'd love to hear a Geno fan explain why he sucked so badly in the Syracuse game or in the other 4 games he was terrible in this year.
for syracuse: he sucked in the snow.

the other games: he played poorly. How's that for explanations from a "Geno fan". He had bad games. It happens. I think it's known that he's not the best QB prospect in the past 10 years. It's known how "weak" this class is. The fact of the matter is, us "Geno fans" like his potential and skillset. Also, we know that, if Albert stays, QB is far and away the Chiefs biggest need. THAT's why we're advocating Geno for the top pick. Meanwhile, people are slobbing the value chart. What're the other suggestions for the Chiefs?

Another funny thing is that this draft isn't top heavy. AT ALL. It's such a deep draft that value really is skewed this draft because there aren't those super prospects this draft. Joeckel's seems to be the consensus "top talent" but after that, it's a HUGE toss up and preferences. And you don't draft a back-up LT number one overall.

Or a rotational DL (aka Star).

You pick the QB. The most important position. The position that made KC so bad this season. scared money don't make money. You pick the QB, not the backup.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:33 AM    (permalink
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as D-Unit said I don't hate Geno, i just don't like him at 1. Yes every year late 1st/early 2nd round graded QBs get pushed up the board.

but they don't get pushed all the way up to 1. My problem is the value of this player. at 15 or 20, go nuts. at 1 it's a terrible reach.
See: Newton, Cam
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:37 AM    (permalink
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Aaron Rodgers didn't go 1 overall, thanks for proving my point.

if the Chiefs take Geno Smith with a late first round pick and sit him for 3 years, I have no problem with that.

as D-Unit said I don't hate Geno, i just don't like him at 1. Yes every year late 1st/early 2nd round graded QBs get pushed up the board.

but they don't get pushed all the way up to 1. My problem is the value of this player. at 15 or 20, go nuts. at 1 it's a terrible reach.

i'd love to hear a Geno fan explain why he sucked so badly in the Syracuse game or in the other 4 games he was terrible in this year.
To be fair, it's not really fair to look at a set of bad games and say, "that's why...". First, let me say, I am a lifelong Chiefs fan. And I do think it's critical that the Chiefs find their 15 year QB immediately and stop relying on castoffs from other teams to solve that spot. Because this franchise has proven time and time again that that will not work for them. I am not a Geno fan nor a hater.

That being said, anyone can look at certain bad games and say that's why.... But when you look at the entirety of his career the kid put up some pretty amazing stats and did have some impressive games. The trick for whoever picks him whenever they pick him is determining which Geno Smith they are getting. The Geno Smith that lit up the scoreboard against Baylor and the Geno Smith that got attacked at Texas and still went for 260 and 4TDs en route to a win? Or the Geno Smith that emerged afterwards?
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:16 AM    (permalink
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See: Newton, Cam
The Chiefs or any other Qb needy team would take Cam over Geno, without even blinking. He's certainly not perfect but he has the rare physical ability that the league is looking for (runs like an RB, size of a TE).

I don't see how Geno is on the same tier as Cam. Geno doesn't have rare physical gifts. He can be on the same tier as Jake Locker and not go at 1 that's fine.

Just cause QB is the biggest need doesn't mean Geno is worth the #1 pick. They should be 2 separate discussions.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:17 AM    (permalink
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Also, we know that, if Albert stays, QB is far and away the Chiefs biggest need. THAT's why we're advocating Geno for the top pick.

You pick the QB. The most important position. The position that made KC so bad this season. scared money don't make money. You pick the QB, not the backup.
As a Jets fan, let me tell you that picking the wrong QB hurts, bad. Even in a new CBA world. You'd rather have no QB than the wrong one with a top 5 pick. When you pick a guy that high he's starting week 1. and if he's not ready (which he probably won't be) the endless second chances that team has to give that player could add up to years of bad QB play. Unlike the Cassel years, you basically can't bench the guy or move on. Geno Smith as a late 1 or early 2 you can bench him for a couple years and develop him. Even as a 10 or 15 pick there's wiggle room. Geno at 1 you have to play him and he has to be good. Or people get fired.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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The Chiefs or any other Qb needy team would take Cam over Geno, without even blinking. He's certainly not perfect but he has the rare physical ability that the league is looking for (runs like an RB, size of a TE).

I don't see how Geno is on the same tier as Cam. Geno doesn't have rare physical gifts. He can be on the same tier as Jake Locker and not go at 1 that's fine.

Just cause QB is the biggest need doesn't mean Geno is worth the #1 pick. They should be 2 separate discussions.
I never said they were alike. You said no QBs have been pushed up from the 2nd round to the #1 overall pick. Cam did just that. And don't give me that revisionist history crap I know you're about to throw at me, he wasn't viewed as a #1 overall pick in mid February, and then he went #1 overall in late April.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:36 AM    (permalink
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As a Jets fan, let me tell you that picking the wrong QB hurts, bad.
No, re-signing the wrong QB to a contract extension hurts bad. The Jaguars GM coming out and saying "we need to build around Blaine Gabbert" hurts bad. Picking the wrong QB isn't that big of a deal, sticking to him for years and years longer then you should after it's obvious he's garbage is what gets teams in trouble. Two different things.





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If the Chiefs believe in Geno they don't believe they are top 5 again in 2014. Luck and RG3 took their teams to the playoffs as rookies. that's what a franchise QB is expected to do.

I'm late to the party here but I still wanted to laugh at this. Pretty sure you didn't think about this very long before you typed it.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:38 AM    (permalink
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Hey peeps the Chiefs biggest need is QB. They have a chance to take the best one in this year draft. Get over it now. They are gonna take Geno and roll with him, value or not.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:56 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
As a Jets fan, let me tell you that picking the wrong QB hurts, bad. Even in a new CBA world. You'd rather have no QB than the wrong one with a top 5 pick. When you pick a guy that high he's starting week 1. and if he's not ready (which he probably won't be) the endless second chances that team has to give that player could add up to years of bad QB play. Unlike the Cassel years, you basically can't bench the guy or move on. Geno Smith as a late 1 or early 2 you can bench him for a couple years and develop him. Even as a 10 or 15 pick there's wiggle room. Geno at 1 you have to play him and he has to be good. Or people get fired.
Andy Reid and John Dorsey are both going to get at least three years. They have long track records of success, strong resumes, and are respected around the NFL.

Barring a scandal, nobody is getting fired until after the 2015 season.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:58 AM    (permalink
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Hey peeps the Chiefs biggest need is QB. They have a chance to take the best one in this year draft. Get over it now. They are gonna take Geno and roll with him, value or not.
Well they'll take the QB they think is best. Might not be Geno.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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Well they'll take the QB they think is best. Might not be Geno.
Well yeah. Just implying they will take a QB. They won't draft Albert backup or another DL. They will go for their biggest need.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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I never said they were alike. You said no QBs have been pushed up from the 2nd round to the #1 overall pick. Cam did just that. And don't give me that revisionist history crap I know you're about to throw at me, he wasn't viewed as a #1 overall pick in mid February, and then he went #1 overall in late April.
I had him at 1 overall in early Jan.

http://web.archive.org/web/201101230.../draft2011.htm
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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No, re-signing the wrong QB to a contract extension hurts bad. The Jaguars GM coming out and saying "we need to build around Blaine Gabbert" hurts bad. Picking the wrong QB isn't that big of a deal, sticking to him for years and years longer then you should after it's obvious he's garbage is what gets teams in trouble. Two different things.


I'm late to the party here but I still wanted to laugh at this. Pretty sure you didn't think about this very long before you typed it.
If you pick Geno Smith at 1 and he's the wrong QB you can't just dump him right away. 23 million dollars guaranteed means he gets chance after chance until everyone gets fired. it's not 60 million like it used to be, but it's still a huge amount of guaranteed money. In fact it's about what Sanchez got at 5 or Gabbert at 8. It's enough money that you are staking your career on the pick.

as for that statement, the key fact is picking a guy at 1 (or 2) is expecting instant improvement. If you pick Geno Smith at 10 or 20 and he sits or whatever, fair enough. If you pick him at 1 he has to start and he has to be great.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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You also had Daquan Bowers 4th overall and Ryan Mallett 8th overall. Things can change from now until April. At least you can agree with that.
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