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Old 02-27-2013, 02:27 PM    (permalink
KaneMarko
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Originally Posted by John Preston View Post
The Chiefs didn't do what they did with Cassel, they did what they did with DeBerg, Montana, Bono, Grbac, Green, and Cassel: they picked up someone else's garbage and thought they could win with it.

They never did, and they never will.

The Chiefs have won four playoff games in 40+ years. Four. None in the last 20. They haven't won because they have consistently terrible absentee ownership that wants the stadium full but won't make a commitment to drafting and developing a QB. You can't win in the NFL without doing so and they refuse to do it.

The Chiefs will never change as long as the Hunt family owns them. They are one of the worst franchises in the league and in all of professional sports.
I know my fellow Chiefs' bretheren don't want to hear this, but minus a good run by Schottenheimer, this franchise hasn't really had much sustained success in decades.

Sad stat: The Chiefs have only been to the playoffs THREE times since Marty left after the 1998 season (ZERO wins). THREE. Once with Vermeil, Once with Herm (on a 9-7 team that needed 4 other teams to lose to back into the playoffs), and once with Haley. THREE times since 1998. This is a below average organization. I'll give Clark Hunt credit for trying to get it right with the GM and HC. But overall this is a well below average organization that keeps repeating past mistakes hoping for different results. The basic definition of insanity. So for bitonti, Scott and everyone else with a website they are drawing up mock draft for, go ahead and ink Joeckel or Fisher to that #1 overall pick for the Chiefs.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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What if this trade is not only an indication of how Reid feels about the quarterbacks in the draft, but it may also be a reflection of how the front office feels about Albert and the standing of contract negotiations with him since it's widely assumed they'll choose OT 1st overall.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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You're wrong. Giving up what the Chiefs reportedly did is not smart no matter how you slice it.

You really think Clark Hunt expected playoffs his first year? No. He expected them to start building a team. He was under no pressure to win right away by anyone.

It was a stupid move.
You aren't reading. I never said it was a smart move. I would have not made the trade.

I'm trying to understand the move from Reid's perspective. It makes sense. I don't think it will ultimately won't pay off but at the same time I have no idea what I would have done in his shoes. It's an extremely difficult situation.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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Just saying, don't be surprised if Reid trades out of that 1/1 slot and takes Tavon Austin a little lower in the first round.

That's a total Andy Reid move.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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One of the weirdest things I keep seeing is how people think this is a safer move for Reid.

The thinking is that if he drafts a QB first overall that busts, he'll be out of a job. But what happens when you trade #34/future 3rd (or 2nd) and HE busts? Is his job not on the line when (not if) that happens?

Both of these decisions were risks. One has much higher upside, and that's the one he chose to ignore.

That is the reason he won't last in KC.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Just saying, don't be surprised if Reid trades out of that 1/1 slot and takes Tavon Austin a little lower in the first round.

That's a total Andy Reid move.
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We already have Dexter McCluster, who Reid reportedly loved that year.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Just saying, don't be surprised if Reid trades out of that 1/1 slot and takes Tavon Austin a little lower in the first round.

That's a total Andy Reid move.
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Who at #1 overall is anyone willing to come up and get? Even if you are the Eagles and love Joeckel, you can just sit tight and get Fisher where you stand for instance. That's the weirdness of this draft. There just isn't that one guy at the top of the draft that I don't think anyone is willing to give up a pick(s) to move up and get.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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We already have Dexter McCluster, who Reid reportedly loved that year.
And the great Devon Wylie.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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One of the weirdest things I keep seeing is how people think this is a safer move for Reid.

The thinking is that if he drafts a QB first overall that busts, he'll be out of a job. But what happens when you trade #34/future 3rd (or 2nd) and HE busts? Is his job not on the line when (not if) that happens?

Both of these decisions were risks. One has much higher upside, and that's the one he chose to ignore.

That is the reason he won't last in KC.
The bolded part should sound VERY and eerily familiar to you as a Chiefs fan.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Who at #1 overall is anyone willing to come up and get? Even if you are the Eagles and love Joeckel, you can just sit tight and get Fisher where you stand for instance. That's the weirdness of this draft. There just isn't that one guy at the top of the draft that I don't think anyone is willing to give up a pick(s) to move up and get.
Fisher and Joeckel look like 1a and 1b at LT. Star and Jones have medical issues that need to be sorted out. I can't see anybody moving up for a CB, OG, or one of these QBs.

Yeah, this is just a bad year to have the #1 pick. Especially given the makeup of the Chiefs current roster. I'm almost starting to think that Mayock wasn't completely off his rocker when he said that they could go Warmack or Cooper at 1/1.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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One of the weirdest things I keep seeing is how people think this is a safer move for Reid.

The thinking is that if he drafts a QB first overall that busts, he'll be out of a job. But what happens when you trade #34/future 3rd (or 2nd) and HE busts? Is his job not on the line when (not if) that happens?

Both of these decisions were risks. One has much higher upside, and that's the one he chose to ignore.

That is the reason he won't last in KC.
Yes and no. The difference is the obligation to each player; the Chiefs would be clearly more obliged to stay with their first overall pick than they would Alex Smith.

If Alex Smith does absolutely horrible and the Chiefs are in the top five again, yes that could easily cost Andy Reid his job. Yet if Smith does poorly, but Reid is able to improve the rest of the team enough to where there is enough noticeable improvement to earn another year, Reid could go after another quarterback that following offseason. The Smith trade would be criticized as stupid, but Reid would still have the room to get out of it. But even if that same situation happens with a rookie quarterback, Reid can't so simply go and look for a replacement so soon after drafting him.

Basically, Reid is only really tied to Smith for a year, despite the high price. Whereas for any first overall selection, there's likely a two to three year minimum before a replacement can be sought.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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Who at #1 overall is anyone willing to come up and get? Even if you are the Eagles and love Joeckel, you can just sit tight and get Fisher where you stand for instance. That's the weirdness of this draft. There just isn't that one guy at the top of the draft that I don't think anyone is willing to give up a pick(s) to move up and get.

I think a team would be willing to move up and guarantee they could draft one of the top OTs in the draft. Some team picking after the 15th pick or lower feels that Joeckel/Fisher/Johnson will be gone unless they move up.

But yeah, why go to 1/1 when you can trade up to 1/5 and get a top flight LT prospect??
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Basically, Reid is only really tied to Smith for a year, despite the high price. Whereas for any first overall selection, there's likely a two to three year minimum before a replacement can be sought.
Well this is just a different topic all together, isn't it?

If he gives up 2 picks (2 premium picks at that) for a one year rental, I'll be even more pissed.

The Chiefs aren't likely to be in a position to draft the best QB in the draft again next year, so you'd need ammo to move up in the event that the team picking first overall doesn't want that QB (not very likely most years). So you traded away premium picks this year and next year for a QB, fail with him, and don't have the kind of ammo needed to move up next year.

I don't see any way this situation could be a win for the Chiefs. Unless Alex Smith takes the Chiefs to the SB. And that isn't happening.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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I don't see any way this situation could be a win for the Chiefs. Unless Alex Smith takes the Chiefs to the SB. And that isn't happening.
So true. Even if every QB in this draft does absolutely nothing, the Chiefs just gave up (at least) a 2nd and 3rd round pick for Alex Smith. Take away the fact that the Chiefs had the chance to draft a potential QB of the future, and instead chose to use that pick on Luke Joeckel, this is still a horrible trade. Or Eric Fisher? Star? There isn't even a player worthy of the #1 pick. Whoever they pick, they are going to be reaching. Why not take that risk on a QB that could be your future?

"Oh no wait, let's go for Alex Smith, because we don't want a future!!!!"
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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Re-sign him, tag Bowe.

I understand why a Chicago fan is having difficulty comprehending the desire to retain a good OL. Good OL? What is that? Is that like a unicorn?
Hey, that's a super reasonable argument. I can see how discussing Kansas City's roster options relates to my favorite team, especially when both options involve having a franchise left tackle. This conversation will surely be a fruitful endeavor.

Again, I have yet to see a good argument against taking Joeckel, if he's deemed BPA. When you have the first pick, obviously you want a QB. Failing that, you want the best, most valuable player. That's where we are. Let's say Joeckel is that player. On one hand, you're allowing Albert to hit the open market and being forced to overpay him to retain his services (bidding against my Bears, for one), on top of the 5-6 million paid to the first pick (a worse player than Joeckel, by your hypothetical evaluation). On the other, you pay Joeckel that money, and you have that enormous vacant Albert contract available to spend however you wish. Maybe Joeckel-Albert is a lateral move in the present day, I guess. But not paying 10+ million/year to a 29 year old OT is a win in itself.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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Well this is just a different topic all together, isn't it?

If he gives up 2 picks (2 premium picks at that) for a one year rental, I'll be even more pissed.

The Chiefs aren't likely to be in a position to draft the best QB in the draft again next year, so you'd need ammo to move up in the event that the team picking first overall doesn't want that QB (not very likely most years). So you traded away premium picks this year and next year for a QB, fail with him, and don't have the kind of ammo needed to move up next year.

I don't see any way this situation could be a win for the Chiefs. Unless Alex Smith takes the Chiefs to the SB. And that isn't happening.
Well if Smith does failboat at least you'll be in position to take Teddy Bridgewater at 1/1 next year and then trade that pick away for Shaun Hill.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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Fisher and Joeckel look like 1a and 1b at LT. Star and Jones have medical issues that need to be sorted out. I can't see anybody moving up for a CB, OG, or one of these QBs.

Yeah, this is just a bad year to have the #1 pick. Especially given the makeup of the Chiefs current roster. I'm almost starting to think that Mayock wasn't completely off his rocker when he said that they could go Warmack or Cooper at 1/1.
We've been saying this all along. The circumstances are unprecedented:

A) the new wage scale
B) the draft class lacks elite blue-chippers at the top (there are usually at least 3 or 4 in every class so it's highly unusual)
C) similar values in the top-10 to the top-40
D) chiefs actually have pass rushers and a LT (if they re-sign Albert)

And Mayock isn't off his rocker for saying that. And neither are those who proposed Milliner or Patterson in this thread.

He's one of the top draft experts in the NFL and has turned down GM jobs. He doesn't say **** for ratings or shits and giggles like some have accused him of. He takes this very seriously - it's his livelihood. He's a football lifer who's passion is evident when you watch him in action. He's not making **** up to stir the pot nor his he uninformed.

As for trading down - it's still possible. But it's not going to be nearly the haul the Rams got last year because of the unprecedented circumstances. In fact, they could even move all the way down to 7 if negotiations go a certain way - and the Cards may only give up a 2nd. The trade chart is outdated and moving up is much more desirable without the crazy contracts.

The tough thing for Joeckel is that he's a prize, yes, but it's tough to trade up for him because say, Arizona or Detroit, knows they can get Fisher later. You'd need someone to fall in love with JUST Joeckel or JUST Fisher.

But anything else is possible. Jones, Floyd, or Ansah could be a target of just about anyone in the top 8. It just takes one team to fall in love with one guy, worry that another team wants him to, and the Chiefs can do exactly what the 49ers did to them. If they are willing to take less than what the No. 1 pick would traditionally be worth, and feel it's the right move for them given these circumstances, they'll take less and move down.

And I'd rather have Fisher and an extra 2nd and 3rd than just Joeckel.

Or Warmack and a 2nd and 3rd than just Joeckel.

Etc, etc.

EDIT: And Schefter litearlly just named Warmack as a possibility for No. 1.

It's not crazy, folks.

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Old 02-27-2013, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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Well if Smith does failboat at least you'll be in position to take Teddy Bridgewater at 1/1 next year and then trade that pick away for Shaun Hill.
The Chiefs have had 1/1 once in their entire history. I get that you were trying to be funny, but the likelyhood that they have the first pick again next year is very slim.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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Hey, that's a super reasonable argument. I can see how discussing Kansas City's roster options relates to my favorite team, especially when both options involve having a franchise left tackle. This conversation will surely be a fruitful endeavor.

Again, I have yet to see a good argument against taking Joeckel, if he's deemed BPA. When you have the first pick, obviously you want a QB. Failing that, you want the best, most valuable player. That's where we are. Let's say Joeckel is that player. On one hand, you're allowing Albert to hit the open market and being forced to overpay him to retain his services (bidding against my Bears, for one), on top of the 5-6 million paid to the first pick (a worse player than Joeckel, by your hypothetical evaluation). On the other, you pay Joeckel that money, and you have that enormous vacant Albert contract available to spend however you wish. Maybe Joeckel-Albert is a lateral move in the present day, I guess. But not paying 10+ million/year to a 29 year old OT is a win in itself.
Don't worry. Branden Albert will be on the Bears' payroll next year.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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Don't worry. Branden Albert will be on the Bears' payroll next year.
There's a good chance of that. I think it would be a mistake.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Basically, Reid is only really tied to Smith for a year, despite the high price. Whereas for any first overall selection, there's likely a two to three year minimum before a replacement can be sought.
No, no he's not. You don't give up the value equivalent of a first round pick for any possibility of a one year rental. You've just hitched your wagon to Alex Smith.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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all the miracle working Andy was gonna do with Geno, he can do instead with Alex. You can't say he's the same as Cassell because Andy Reid rejected Cassel and wants to work with Alex Smith. As we've talked about in this thread, Andy is a miracle worker with QBs, why can't he work a miracle with Alex Smith?

the whole point of hiring Andy is he's a QB guru. If that guy wants to pass on Geno and take Alex Smith instead, you should trust him, right?
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Those cases are night and day different. If you don't understand that then I can't help you.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Those cases are night and day different. If you don't understand that then I can't help you.
I don't need help. Every time you say im wrong in this thread the football gods smite you.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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I don't need help. Every time you say im wrong in this thread the football gods smite you.
They've been doing it a lot then, because I have yet to find a single credible thing you've said since you joined these forums.
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