Week 5 Discussion Thread.

[abaddon41_80]

I always see Deion Branch brought up in topics like this, discussing receivers being made by quarterbacks, but I don't understand it. His per game numbers for his first few years in Seattle were nearly identical to those of his previous three years in New England. He was actually averaging more yards/catch and more touchdowns/catch. He was just always injured in Seattle

[bearsfan_51]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

To compare their skill sets is laughable and you know it. Eli doesn't just win games. That's a clear discredit to his career, and what he does in this offense.

It's the same stupidity you hear when people say Troy Aikman wasn't a good qb bc he didn't throw a lot of touchdown passes.

Absolutely ridiculous. Some systems and teams are built to put up numbers. Others aren't. You don't base your argument soley on the quarterback's statistics.

Considering Eli played with the worst rush offense in the league last year, the 27th ranked defense, and the worst OL in the league in terms of hurries/pressures, I think doing what he did was pretty damn impressive.

But sure. Compare him to Tebow. Because that makes more sense.

I'm mostly just mocking your ridiculous argument that somehow statistics are empty. Math isn't empty; it's a quantifiable reflection of things that actually happen. You would prefer to handpick things that you like, because you have an inherent bias in this argument (and anything to do with New York).

But, if you want to focus on schemes, the Giants must have a really bizarre one that forces Eli to throw so many interceptions and have a career completion % below 60%.

Eli has made some good throws (and been on the other end of some ridiculous catches) in high pressure moments. Good for him. But to focus entirely on that in some vain attempt to make Eli into something he isn't is the epitome of homerism.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Jvig43

This is certainly far more present Brady than early my patriot hating friend. No way were we a SB caliber team last year.

i was honestly chalking up last year to a bad afc. i just don't think brady last year was the same brady, though again, i think you've completely gotten away from what he's really good at in your offense. or, i should say, you repeatedly get away from what he's really good at during games because your genius is an idiot.

[Jvig43]

Originally Posted by njx9

i was honestly chalking up last year to a bad afc. i just don't think brady last year was the same brady, though again, i think you've completely gotten away from what he's really good at in your offense. or, i should say, you repeatedly get away from what he's really good at during games because your genius is an idiot.

Hmm elaborate. I would say last year was one of his best years, in fact I'd say the last two years were even better than his 2007 year based on how much he did with much weaker teams. Hes being asked to do more now because our defense can't hold guys to 10 points a game like they were doing pre 2005. At that point all we needed (although wasnt always the case) was for Brady to dink and dunk his way to long drives and let the D take care of the rest. But I am intrigued on what you mean by getting away from what were good at.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

I always see Deion Branch brought up in topics like this, discussing receivers being made by quarterbacks, but I don't understand it. His per game numbers for his first few years in Seattle were nearly identical to those of his previous three years in New England. He was actually averaging more yards/catch and more touchdowns/catch. He was just always injured in Seattle

his yards per game was nearly identical, catches per game being down. further, he was in an entirely different offensive system. this is another case where the numbers are not truly representative of the caliber of play.

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by bearsfan_51

I'm mostly just mocking your ridiculous argument that somehow statistics are empty. Math isn't empty; it's a quantifiable reflection of things that actually happen. You would prefer to handpick things that you like, because you have an inherent bias in this argument (and anything to do with New York).

But, if you want to focus on schemes, the Giants must have a really bizarre one that forces Eli to throw so many interceptions and have a career completion % below 60%.

Eli has made some good throws (and been on the other end of some ridiculous catches) in high pressure moments. Good for him. But to focus entirely on that in some vain attempt to make Eli into something he isn't is the epitome of homerism.

Completion percentage is overrated to begin with. Elway had a less than 60% completion percentage.

And in a choice route offense, I've said this for the past 4 years, you're gonna throw picks. These guys aren't robots, you're not going to read the defense the exact same way every time. When you run that type of scheme with that many choices, you get interceptions. It happens.

Eli doesn't even have terrible stats. His stats are fine. I don't get how we can use stats against him when he's put up solid numbers. And I have complete confidence that as long as he stays healthy, he'll continue to put up great numbers.

And we run for touchdowns. That's just how the offense is. Even with a terrible rush offense, we run for touchdowns. We run for the sake of running many times. That's just the offense, it is what it is.

And I'm perfectly fine with that. You can come into the Giants team forum any time and you'll see me say it time and time again, I could care less about Eli's stats. He's gonna be a HOFer, I'm not worried about his perception. I just want to win. That's why we root for our teams. We don't root for them to put up great numbers. We root for them to win. That's all that matters.

Eli has the hardware, and he has the stats too. You make it sound like the guy is throwing 52% with a 1:1 TD/INT ratio.

I do believe elite quarterbacks find ways to win. So winning does matter. I've never deviated from this belief. It's why Tom Brady is the best qb in the league to me. It's why I rather have a Roethlisberger than a Rivers. It's why a Troy Aikman is more valuable to me than a Dan Fouts.

The revisionist history is unfair too. Before the season starts, we always hear about how the Giants lost so many key pieces, and lost so many weapons. By the end of the season we hear about how Eli had a ton of weapons. Give me a break. You can't have it both ways either.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Jvig43

Hmm elaborate. I would say last year was one of his best years, in fact I'd say the last two years were even better than his 2007 year based on how much he did with much weaker teams. Hes being asked to do more now because our defense can't hold guys to 10 points a game like they were doing pre 2005. At that point all we needed (although wasnt always the case) was for Brady to dink and dunk his way to long drives and let the D take care of the rest. But I am intrigued on what you mean by getting away from what were good at.

we could start with getting away from going 5 wide as often. which, granted, is a function of starting a bunch of crap on the o-line. but then, i think matt light was historically one of the most overrated offensive linemen of all time.

brady was always at his best with a shorter, underneath passing game, with a lot of spread-attack influence (minus the tebow spin moves). he was incredible at finding his receivers short and hitting them when they had space to make some moves with the ball. even the last time you actually had a running game (with dillon), the base passing game wasn't this weird, vertical offense mcdaniels seems to love.

and yes, brady can actually hit a deep out now, when he really couldn't his first few years. but he also spends a lot more time pressing, and attempting to make passes he doesn't need to make, even early in games. he's been much more susceptible to pressure since the knee (certainly not blaming him), and he was never good if you hit him to begin with.

though really, what's the best way to protect a bad defense? extend your drives. instead, the patriots seem to be trying to get the ball down field *faster* (i realize they're in the top half of the league in TOP, but i think every game i've watched so far, their TD drives have been FAR faster then they ever were a decade ago [which i also know is anecdotal and whatnot, so it could just be confirmation bias]).

[bearsfan_51]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

Completion percentage is overrated to begin with. Elway had a less than 60% completion percentage.

Different offensive era.

And in a choice route offense, I've said this for the past 4 years, you're gonna throw picks. These guys aren't robots, you're not going to read the defense the exact same way every time. When you run that type of scheme with that many choices, you get interceptions. It happens.

But why does it happen more to Eli than every other "elite" quarterback?

Eli doesn't even have terrible stats. His stats are fine. I don't get how we can use stats against him when he's put up solid numbers.

Becuase nobody is arguing if he's "solid". You said he was elite. In a league with only 32 starting quarterbacks, that's top 3-4.

And we run for touchdowns. That's just how the offense is. Even with a terrible rush offense, we run for touchdowns. We run for the sake of running many times. That's just the offense, it is what it is.

Passing touchdowns actually are overrated for that reason. I'm not taking that into account at all.

He's gonna be a HOFer, I'm not worried about his perception.

You clearly are.

You make it sound like the guy is throwing 52% with a 1:1 TD/INT ratio.

No I don't, he's just not elite.

I do believe elite quarterbacks find ways to win. So winning does matter. I've never deviated from this belief. It's why Tom Brady is the best qb in the league to me. It's why I rather have a Roethlisberger than a Rivers. It's why a Troy Aikman is more valuable to me than a Dan Fouts.

It's why Tim Tebow is a probowl quarterback. The "he just wins" argument is about as real as the tooth fairy. It's something analysts say to fill space and boost ratings.

The revisionist history is unfair too. Before the season starts, we always hear about how the Giants lost so many key pieces, and lost so many weapons. By the end of the season we hear about how Eli had a ton of weapons. Give me a break. You can't have it both ways either.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Eli isn't elite because he's too inefficient. That's it.

[Complex]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

Before the season starts, we always hear about how the Giants lost so many key pieces, and lost so many weapons. By the end of the season we hear about how Eli had a ton of weapons. Give me a break. You can't have it both ways either.

No we don't.You're so delusional.

[Giantsfan1080]

Eli is already top 40 in both passing TD's and yards. By the time his career is over he'll be in the top 15 or higher in both. He puts up numbers and wins.

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by Complex

No we don't.You're so delusional.

So we didn't hear in the offseason about how Eli lost Steve Smith, and Kevin Boss, and how he lost 2 OLmen in Seubert and O'Hara and they were all gonna be hard to replace? We didn't hear about how the Giants weren't even gonna make the playoffs and those losses were a large reason for it? You're the delusional one if you think that didn't happen.

Look I get it. I've been on this forum for awhile, and I've seen Eli get hated on here for a long time.

But it's time to shut up and give the man his due. He proved it. Get over it.

[bearsfan_51]

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Eli is already top 40 in both passing TD's and yards. By the time his career is over he'll be in the top 15 or higher in both. He puts up numbers and wins.

I'm all about history, but it's not fair at all to compare passing stats historically at this point. They're practically playing a different sport than they were even 20 years ago, let alone 40.

[bearsfan_51]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

Look I get it. I've been on this forum for awhile, and I've seen Eli get hated on here for a long time.

But it's time to shut up and give the man his due. He proved it. Get over it.

Hahaha....you are hilarious.

[Raiderz4Life]

I think BBD's BBall trolling is starting to trickle down to his football a little bit.

[thenewfeature06]

Why are talking about Eli..? he has done what he has done this is a week 5 discussion eh?

He isn't the prettiest when he plays at the same time he is fearless and being durable at his position is key. His brother is the better QB though, not sure what we are discussing here.

[tjsunstein]

Everyone wants their guy to be elite, but the truth is there's nothing wrong with beng really good. Elite is a term very often abused on this forum. Eli is an elite QB, Chris Clemoms is an elite 4-3 DE, I'm sure I'm missing a lot more but these two have stuck out to me the last two weeks. I would put Eli top 5, and have hime as very good, maybe even great, but elite is uch a strong word especially in the world of sports.

[Jvig43]

Originally Posted by njx9

we could start with getting away from going 5 wide as often. which, granted, is a function of starting a bunch of crap on the o-line. but then, i think matt light was historically one of the most overrated offensive linemen of all time.

brady was always at his best with a shorter, underneath passing game, with a lot of spread-attack influence (minus the tebow spin moves). he was incredible at finding his receivers short and hitting them when they had space to make some moves with the ball. even the last time you actually had a running game (with dillon), the base passing game wasn't this weird, vertical offense mcdaniels seems to love.

and yes, brady can actually hit a deep out now, when he really couldn't his first few years. but he also spends a lot more time pressing, and attempting to make passes he doesn't need to make, even early in games. he's been much more susceptible to pressure since the knee (certainly not blaming him), and he was never good if you hit him to begin with.

though really, what's the best way to protect a bad defense? extend your drives. instead, the patriots seem to be trying to get the ball down field *faster* (i realize they're in the top half of the league in TOP, but i think every game i've watched so far, their TD drives have been FAR faster then they ever were a decade ago [which i also know is anecdotal and whatnot, so it could just be confirmation bias]).

I would agree and think most Pats fans would that Light was very overrated, he got killed whenever we'd play a team with a good pass rusher (although he had a great year last year surprisingly).

I also agree that Brady gets rattled when you hit him, thats always been the case and certainly much more so after the knee injury. Although this year he seems to be holding onto the ball alot longer resulting in alot more hits so idk whats up with that but yes getting to him has always been or should have been defenses blue print.

Scoring wise, I think weve shifted to adapt to how many points we can put up on the board and making teams one dimensional early on. I guess I just don't see the point now in throwing short passes with all the weapons we have now. Daniel graham, steve givens, brown, david patten, all did great things for us but were extremely limited so it makes sense that the offense revolved around short passes with space to work with. None of those guys were going to burn anyone deep consistently. And maybe its because I'm a Pats fan, but I'm just as high on brady as I was when we were a dynasty. Idk I get what you mean, but I'm not sure if reverting back to that kind of attack would be as effective in the NFL today.

Also, I am with you on the woodhead and reverse trick plays Rondald mcdonald calls. The guy pisses me off to no end. Yeah lets only give Gronk two pass plays and RIdley the ball 3 times over Woodheads 15. Great game plan jack ass.

[Complex]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

So we didn't hear in the offseason about how Eli lost Steve Smith, and Kevin Boss, and how he lost 2 OLmen in Seubert and O'Hara and they were all gonna be hard to replace? We didn't hear about how the Giants weren't even gonna make the playoffs and those losses were a large reason for it? You're the delusional one if you think that didn't happen.

Look I get it. I've been on this forum for awhile, and I've seen Eli get hated on here for a long time.

But it's time to shut up and give the man his due. He proved it. Get over it.

Kevin Boss was a average TE who got hyped up by NY media. Steve was injured and the only time I remember anyone talking about Steve Smith was when Coughlin got mad when he signed with the eagles. Ohara and Seubert who were done? I heard about them a little bit more than I did on how titans were going to replace Eugene Amano.

[Scotty D]

Originally Posted by thenewfeature06

Why are talking about Eli..? he has done what he has done this is a week 5 discussion eh?

He isn't the prettiest when he plays at the same time he is fearless and being durable at his position is key. His brother is the better QB though, not sure what we are discussing here.

You must be new here...take a seat over there.

[abaddon41_80]

Originally Posted by njx9

his yards per game was nearly identical, catches per game being down. further, he was in an entirely different offensive system. this is another case where the numbers are not truly representative of the caliber of play.

The systems may have been different but the amount of pass attempts per year over that span was 528 in New England and 525 in Seattle. Branch wasn't even the #1 targeted receiver like he was in New England. His first year there he was still behind Darrell Jackson, who was just ending the good part of his career, and then Bobby Engram had a career resurgence. Not to mention that going from Tom Brady to Matt Hasselbeck and Seneca Wallace you would expect a slight decrease in numbers.

I think a lot of people overrated Branch because of that great Super Bowl performance. Given what they traded for him and his contract, the Seahawks for among them. The Seahawks definitely overpaid for Branch and didn't get their money's worth but that doesn't mean Branch sucked in Seattle, he didn't. He was never a legitimate #1 threat in New England, he was a high-end #2 at best. That is exactly what he was in Seattle. It is not like he went from elite WR to terrible. He went from slightly above average to average.

[Jvig43]

You don't give up a #1 pick for a WR because you think he'll be average.

[thenewfeature06]

Originally Posted by Scotty D

You must be new here...take a seat over there.

don't get so worked up

[abaddon41_80]

Originally Posted by Jvig43

You don't give up a #1 pick for a WR because you think he'll be average.

That is my point. The Seahawks vastly overpaid for Branch and that led to people thinking he was more than he actually was, which was a very good #2 option that could have a big game here and there.

[Rosebud]

Originally Posted by raiderz4life

I think BBD's BBall trolling is starting to trickle down to his football a little bit.

Except Eli is actually elite. It's why he's been one of the best late game and hurry-up QBs since he came into the league.

[Raiderz4Life]

Originally Posted by Rosebud

Except Eli is actually elite. It's why he's been one of the best late game and hurry-up QBs since he came into the league.

He's great. I'm sure most of us would love him on our team...but not Elite. Only 2 people get to claim that title atm...Rodgers and Brady.