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Old 01-05-2013, 08:47 AM    (permalink
weasel
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Default So what would you guys say

to DaMontre Moore in the first and Phillip Thomas in the second.
I haven't gone further than that, I like getting measureables from the combine and pro days before selecting deeper than the second round.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:50 AM    (permalink
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Pretty much an ideal draft without trading up. Phillip Thomas would instantly become the best player in our secondary. I wasn't impressed with Delmas in his last game. I'm also glad that we're coaching the Senior Bowl. Maybe it will help us with our mid and late round drafting.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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Moore looks like a 3-4 OLB type to me, he would add zero to our run defense and isn't the size, Swartz likes in his DE's. Teams would run on us all day.
Thomas is the 8th Safety ranked by Scott, why we we pass on better Safeties to draft him. At #5, we will be getting a talent that could have gone in round 1 and Thomas isn't that guy.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Won't we be pick 4 in Round 2. It rotates right?
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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I think Thomas is going to be drafted from pick 20 to the top of the second round. He's the best coverage guy out there.

basically, him, Reid, and Jefferson are identical enough and are just up to individual teams to rank them.
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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I like that draft a lot. Assuming we would be taking the best safety available and not locking in on phillips.

I personally don't think Moore will be there at 5 but if he is we must take him IMO. He would be a monster next to Suh and Fairley
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:33 AM    (permalink
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Moore looks like a 3-4 OLB type to me, he would add zero to our run defense and isn't the size, Swartz likes in his DE's. Teams would run on us all day.
Thomas is the 8th Safety ranked by Scott, why we we pass on better Safeties to draft him. At #5, we will be getting a talent that could have gone in round 1 and Thomas isn't that guy.
Not sure where you get that about his size. He is listed as 1 inch taller than Avril and 10 pounds lighter. (Listed at 6-4 250). Thats after only one year of playing DE as well. I think he can easily grow into a very comparable size tor avril if not a bit bigger.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:16 AM    (permalink
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I think unless we change our defense he is the best DE we can get this year. Ahdm Thomas is a play making safety,,,,
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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Not sure where you get that about his size. He is listed as 1 inch taller than Avril and 10 pounds lighter. (Listed at 6-4 250). Thats after only one year of playing DE as well. I think he can easily grow into a very comparable size tor avril if not a bit bigger.
And what has Avril done for our run defense??? I love Moore, but he is strictly a pass rusher and will be a liability against the run, that's why I see him as a 3-4 OLBer.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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And what has Avril done for our run defense??? I love Moore, but he is strictly a pass rusher and will be a liability against the run, that's why I see him as a 3-4 OLBer.
I think we need someone else to play LE. Stick the rookie pass rusher at RE. Get someone like Israel Idonije to play LE and do well in run defense.

The bar is set very low for improvement in run defense by Avril and KVB. KVB was the worst DE in the league by far this year. Jackson is the only one who did solid in run defense.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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That would be a good draft. Moore is my #3 option at the moment.

#1 is Te'o, as I think his combination of talent and (as importantly) maturity/leadership is what we really need right now.

#2 is a trade down. I could see the Jets or someone similar trying to trade up to our spot to grab a QB.

Thomas would be a great pick-up.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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As far as drafting a DE, it's pretty much a Bjeorn Werner vs Moore argument. Werner has a dozen more pounds and is stronger, however Moore is more explosive. We'll watch the combine, but if it comes down to having Von Miller 2.0 vs Chris Long 2.0...I'll take Von Miller 2.0 and make things work.

Safety is a weird position this year. Vaccaro, Reid, Jefferson, Elam, TJ, and Phillip Thomas have all been mentioned as first rounders. Recently, Thomas had been mentioned as a guy NE would probably love to take at their pick. The individual rankings all depend on the team that drafts them. Phillip Thomas is said to have excellent range and is strong against the run. We employ 2 multitalented(supposed to be) safeties and he should be a strong fit. He could probably step right in and give us another Louis Delmas.

However, with the position depth...it does look like we could get one of those guys later in the 2nd or maybe even have one fall to us at the top of the 3rd. Its one of those things that we could keep an eye one. Maybe a DE, a Barrett Jones, and then a starting safety for the first 3 rounds?

Also, we should be coaching a lot of those safeties in the Senior Bowl.
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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And what has Avril done for our run defense??? I love Moore, but he is strictly a pass rusher and will be a liability against the run, that's why I see him as a 3-4 OLBer.
True and that's a fair point. However, this is a passing league and for my RE I am looking for a guy that can get to the QB. Moore is young with good size and is showing the ability to be able to get to the QB with the best of them. Coupled with our DT duo, that's downright scary. He will be able to improve on run defense as he gets bigger and gains experience in this league.

He only shifted to DE last year also. There are certainly areas in his game for improvement but with the build of our team, and our preference for only rushing 4 every down, Moore is a great pick IMO.

My second option is Milliner. We need a corner, he is worthy of a top 10 pick (as of now atleast) let's address our biggest need and fix an issue that we have had for the past 10 years.

Te'o is my third choice but you are now talking about addressing a position where we have Tulloch at already. Doesn't save us money or adresses a need. Sure maybe you can move him to OLB, but if thats the case I'd rather find a OLB later in the draft. He also fell a bit in my mind after watching Bama tear through that defense like a pop warner game
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Well, Te'o will now have to resurrect himself in the post season, he is no longer in the talk as a top 5 prospect after last night. Maybe he just wasn't up for the game as sometimes happens to teams that have a month off before a Bowl game, he'll need a great post season if he wants to remain in the talk as a top 5 prospect.
I have Moore as my #3 prospect so we may not get a shot at him, Joeckel may well end up the guy unless the coaches are completely sold on Reiff as a very solid LT. Protecting Stafford will always remain a top priority. Millinar is a reach at #5 IMO, this draft no longer has a lot of options for Detroit as the best defenders are DT's, Lotulelie and Hankins. We may really struggle with the #5 pick.
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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Well, Te'o will now have to resurrect himself in the post season, he is no longer in the talk as a top 5 prospect after last night. Maybe he just wasn't up for the game as sometimes happens to teams that have a month off before a Bowl game, he'll need a great post season if he wants to remain in the talk as a top 5 prospect.
I have Moore as my #3 prospect so we may not get a shot at him, Joeckel may well end up the guy unless the coaches are completely sold on Reiff as a very solid LT. Protecting Stafford will always remain a top priority. Millinar is a reach at #5 IMO, this draft no longer has a lot of options for Detroit as the best defenders are DT's, Lotulelie and Hankins. We may really struggle with the #5 pick.
I agree this draft is only getting worse, however until the combine anyone can go anywhere IMO.

I do think Moore and Joeckel will most likely be gone by #5. Best case scenario for us is that a couple QB's really sky rocket.

I agree that Milliner may be a bit of a reach. His combine will have a large impact, if he runs faster than a 4.45 I think he will be a top 10 pick. If thats the case I think he has to be the pick. Maybe he isn't BPA, but from what I see of him, he a a very capable CB coming from a great coach and a great football conference.

It does appear me and you differ in where our weaknesses are. I agree we have to improve in general, however it seems like you blame the front 7 more, while I blame our secondary.

See, I partially believe that we get killed in the run game at times because our DLine is trying to compensate so much for our lack of a secondary. They need to take the approach of getting to the QB and create pressure, and because of that they are over aggressive and get burned.

I also believe our run game gets hurt because we have our secondary playing so loose, mostly because they can't cover a guy off the line.

I think overall we can agree there are obvious needs for improvement. OLB, DE, Secondary. My belief with this draft and the position we are in (assuming moore is gone), the easiest fix via draft is secondary. Milliner and Reid (just as an example, but a 2nd round safety) would go a long way of helping this defense because all of a sudden we have a secondary that can cover, bump on the line, and take care of them selves. This allows a level of aggression from our front 7 we have never been able to do before. It also opens up the chances of coverage sack, something our defense probably hasn't generated in 8 years.

A secondary that can press cover gives our defense a whole new look. Our pocket collapsing DTs are felt more, our DE's have more time, ultimatelty leading to more sacks, more turnovers, more opportunities.

Yes I understand this doesn't "fix" everything on our defense. But it atleast allows us to play 8 in the box without fear of getting burned because we have a practice squad CB covering Jordy Nelson (just an example).

I agree other areas are areas of need, areas for improvement. However, I believe secondary is a disaster. Something we cannot continue to try and fix with stop gaps on a continuous basis. Especially when we play in a division with the Packers.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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Our back seven is terrible and our DE's should both be replaced. Avril because he isn't worth it and Vandenbosch because he no longer has it. Delmas, Houston, Avril, Levy, Durant all need to be evaluated and all are free agents.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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Our back seven is terrible and our DE's should both be replaced. Avril because he isn't worth it and Vandenbosch because he no longer has it. Delmas, Houston, Avril, Levy, Durant all need to be evaluated and all are free agents.
I think it's interesting Mayhew said he didn't see them using the franchise tag this offseason. The logical choice would be to franchise Delmas. We can't let him walk, it would be a significant step back, especially since our roster is empty with any other starting caliber safety.

Same time though, we should not give him a long term contract with his injury history. A 1 year deal is easily the most logical choice for him IMO.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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I agree this draft is only getting worse, however until the combine anyone can go anywhere IMO.

I do think Moore and Joeckel will most likely be gone by #5. Best case scenario for us is that a couple QB's really sky rocket.

I agree that Milliner may be a bit of a reach. His combine will have a large impact, if he runs faster than a 4.45 I think he will be a top 10 pick. If thats the case I think he has to be the pick. Maybe he isn't BPA, but from what I see of him, he a a very capable CB coming from a great coach and a great football conference.

It does appear me and you differ in where our weaknesses are. I agree we have to improve in general, however it seems like you blame the front 7 more, while I blame our secondary.

See, I partially believe that we get killed in the run game at times because our DLine is trying to compensate so much for our lack of a secondary. They need to take the approach of getting to the QB and create pressure, and because of that they are over aggressive and get burned.

I also believe our run game gets hurt because we have our secondary playing so loose, mostly because they can't cover a guy off the line.

I think overall we can agree there are obvious needs for improvement. OLB, DE, Secondary. My belief with this draft and the position we are in (assuming moore is gone), the easiest fix via draft is secondary. Milliner and Reid (just as an example, but a 2nd round safety) would go a long way of helping this defense because all of a sudden we have a secondary that can cover, bump on the line, and take care of them selves. This allows a level of aggression from our front 7 we have never been able to do before. It also opens up the chances of coverage sack, something our defense probably hasn't generated in 8 years.

A secondary that can press cover gives our defense a whole new look. Our pocket collapsing DTs are felt more, our DE's have more time, ultimatelty leading to more sacks, more turnovers, more opportunities.

Yes I understand this doesn't "fix" everything on our defense. But it atleast allows us to play 8 in the box without fear of getting burned because we have a practice squad CB covering Jordy Nelson (just an example).

I agree other areas are areas of need, areas for improvement. However, I believe secondary is a disaster. Something we cannot continue to try and fix with stop gaps on a continuous basis. Especially when we play in a division with the Packers.
We actually agree quite a bit on the draft, it is just that I've checked out who will be available at #5 and am making a decision based on value. If there was a solid CB who had value at #5 or a DE who fit Schwartz's schemes, I'd place them at the top of my list but right now I don't see one. Perhaps a trade down will be possible if Joeckel who I have at #5 on my board is still there, don't hold your breath for a QB.
As much as I perfer defense, we might just end up taking Joeckel if Backus retires and leave Reiff at RT and a trade back cannot be worked out. This draft may not have elite top end talent but it is extremely deep and worth every pick we can lay our hands on.
Let's hope Milliner comes out of the combine rated in the top 6 or 7, then he may well be our choice.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by detroit4life View Post
I think it's interesting Mayhew said he didn't see them using the franchise tag this offseason. The logical choice would be to franchise Delmas. We can't let him walk, it would be a significant step back, especially since our roster is empty with any other starting caliber safety.

Same time though, we should not give him a long term contract with his injury history. A 1 year deal is easily the most logical choice for him IMO.
I don't think we'll franchise Delmas, I still remember Mayock saying during the Combine, that Delmas was an accident waiting to happen, that the way he played, he doubted he could ever stay healthy in the NFL for more than a game or 2. They may well let him walk although I don't think there will be much of a market for him.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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Our back seven is terrible and our DE's should both be replaced. Avril because he isn't worth it and Vandenbosch because he no longer has it. Delmas, Houston, Avril, Levy, Durant all need to be evaluated and all are free agents.
We can reevaluate them all we want but finding replacements isn't quite that easy and it is far cheaper retaining your own FA's than trying to sign somebody else's.
Right now, there doesn't appear to be anything available at DB or DE when we pick at #5, so we will have to drop down considerably in value if we want to draft those positions, not a action I would recommend. Mayhew should stick to his board and continue to draft talent over need especially with the #5 overall pick. Hopefully, a trade back is possible to where we can draft a DB or a DE and still get value plus extra picks.
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