Who is the current OROTY?

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by njx9

i miss the 'better and more productive' meme.

My favorite was "had a game for the ages"

That and when he wanted to meet up with LTGiants and fight him.

He knew his linebackers though.

[y.f.s.]

I don't understand why one has to be terrible for the other one to be good.

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by y.f.s.

I don't understand why one has to be terrible for the other one to be good.

It's my biggest issue with comparison threads on this forum. We typically feel the need to dismiss one player to prop up the other. Why can't both be good?

Luck and RGIII are both great. In different ways.

[y.f.s.]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

It's my biggest issue with comparison threads on this forum. We typically feel the need to dismiss one player to prop up the other. Why can't both be good?

Luck and RGIII are both great. In different ways.

Exactly.

This bores me. NEW TOPIC.

Who feels better going forward: the Browns with Weeden or the Dolphins with Tannehill?

Both of those teams are really, really close to being serious contenders IMO.

[bigbluedefense]

I want to say the Dolphins for the following reasons:

1. Tannehill isn't 30
2. Because Browns
3. I like Miami's defensive coordinator and they have pass rushers

Although if you give Cleveland 1 or 2 pass rushers on defense and a WR or TE on offense, they suddenly look pretty good themselves.

Both teams are in tough divisions too. But I think Miami has a better chance bc Buffalo and NYJ are both meh, whereas the Steelers will always be the Steelers, the Ravens will always be the Ravens, and the Bengals look like an up and coming team as well.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by y.f.s.

Exactly.

This bores me. NEW TOPIC.

Who feels better going forward: the Browns with Weeden or the Dolphins with Tannehill?

Both of those teams are really, really close to being serious contenders IMO.

I'm going to make this a thread.

[bigbluedefense]

And Joe Haden is the 2nd best CB in the league.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Cause I'm sick to death of the lack of respect for what RG3 has done

Literally didn't read another word, because this is precisely why people continue to argue with you about the other rookies - you refuse to acknowledge or respect the significance of anyone else besides Griffin unless you're just making a caveat that you think will ultimately support your RGIII-for-OROTY angle.

Edit: went and read the rest of your post just in case it was different from the others, and it's just more talk about how people who try to make a case for Andrew Luck have a fetish for his nut fuzz.

[jsagan77]

You guys seriously don't see the disrespect? Gimmicky offense, 7x% short throws (Despite Manning, Rodgers, and Brady having a higher percentage), all he throws is bubble screens, if luck had a run game like RG3, recievers bail him out, only makes easy throws, recievers are wide open, etc... All that stuff is meant to somehow discredit what he has done and create a false picture of why Luck is better than him (when most of that stuff isn't even near the truth--which is why I believe most in this thread watched a few early games and some highlight reels to form their opinions).

Then you bring up stats and somehow they don't matter (because of the above).

You guys are being way less objective toward RG3 than Luck and it's not even close.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

You guys seriously don't see the disrespect?

You seriously don't see the disrespect?

RGIII has improved his candidacy in the last few weeks more than Luck, and if I was going to put money down today, I think I'd probably put it on him. But the way you've argued for him over the last three weeks has not shown understanding of the game. Which is frustrating when the player you're stumping for deserves the award you want him to win. It just makes for bad forum discussion. You post like you literally want someone to close this thread after each of your last posts. You post like the conversation should be over.

This is a ******* forum, bro.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

You seriously don't see the disrespect?

Yeah, people normally act in response to as their being treated...

Look I loved Luck coming out and I still do. I agree that both guys have it all with respect to rookie QB's. Even if I wasn't an RG3 fan I'd still say Luck is on the outside looking in in this race because of so many things we use to measure a player (metric or intangible) such as QBR (Griff #1 in the NFL as a rookie), accuracy (RG3 is 5th in the NFL), YPA (RG3 is 1st in the NFL), TD:Turnover (Griff Stellar, Luck Not), taking care of the football (RG3's 10 fumbles are farce BTW a lot of those are botched handoffs or pitches the pitch man didn't catch but RG3 get's the tic), pocket presence (both have very good pocket presence), clutch play (both are very clutch), overall playmaking ability (both can make plays but Griff is the best dual threat player at the position ever IMO), toughness (Think Griff has this one), leadership (I'll take Griff over luck here but it's a preference thing).

[xjxdarren]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Yeah, people normally act in response to as their being treated...

Look I loved Luck coming out and I still do. I agree that both guys have it all with respect to rookie QB's. Even if I wasn't an RG3 fan I'd still say Luck is on the outside looking in in this race because of so many things we use to measure a player (metric or intangible) such as QBR (Griff #1 in the NFL as a rookie), accuracy (RG3 is 5th in the NFL), YPA (RG3 is 1st in the NFL), TD:Turnover (Griff Stellar, Luck Not), taking care of the football (RG3's 10 fumbles are farce BTW a lot of those are botched handoffs or pitches the pitch man didn't catch but RG3 get's the tic), pocket presence (both have very good pocket presence), clutch play (both are very clutch), overall playmaking ability (both can make plays but Griff is the best dual threat player at the position ever IMO), toughness (Think Griff has this one), leadership (I'll take Griff over luck here but it's a preference thing).

Are you seriously comparing Bob's pocket awareness with Luck's?! You can heap all the flowery, demagoguery praises onto him, but not that one.

Btw has he or will he play a team like the the Pats?

[jsagan77]

Griff is houdini back there. Again not a nock on luck cause he's good too but RG3 is elusive as hell.

[G Mobile]

Griffin is more elusive for sure but Luck has a clear edge is pocket presence. The guy just naturally works a pocket and steps up. Its not that RG3 is bad, but Luck might be in the elite level there. Its one of his best attributes.

[Bengalsrocket]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Griff is houdini back there. Again not a nock on luck cause he's good too but RG3 is elusive as hell.

I don't want to turn into the spelling police here, but didn't you say you were working on a PhD? Why do you not see the little red squiggly lines in your post?

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Yeah, people normally act in response to as their being treated...

Look I loved Luck coming out and I still do. I agree that both guys have it all with respect to rookie QB's. Even if I wasn't an RG3 fan I'd still say Luck is on the outside looking in in this race because of so many things we use to measure a player (metric or intangible) such as QBR (Griff #1 in the NFL as a rookie), accuracy (RG3 is 5th in the NFL), YPA (RG3 is 1st in the NFL), TD:Turnover (Griff Stellar, Luck Not), taking care of the football (RG3's 10 fumbles are farce BTW a lot of those are botched handoffs or pitches the pitch man didn't catch but RG3 get's the tic), pocket presence (both have very good pocket presence), clutch play (both are very clutch), overall playmaking ability (both can make plays but Griff is the best dual threat player at the position ever IMO), toughness (Think Griff has this one), leadership (I'll take Griff over luck here but it's a preference thing).

Here's the thing. This is probably my favorite post of yours in this whole thread, because you just lay some information out there to be worked with. For example, I can grant you that a lot of those statistics contribute to RGIII's case while still pointing out that being 5th in completion percentage doesn't mean being 5th in accuracy. But it's like you say in the beginning - there are "so many things we use to measure a player (metric or intangible)." What you've consistently done throughout this thread is bring up metric after metric and then when people argue for Luck's intangibles, you point back to the metrics and insist that it's incontrovertible proof that Griffin has superior intangibles as well - aspects of the game like reading defenses, making his teammates better, etc.

Now, 18 picks is a lot. It's enough of a difference between the two (Griffin having only 4) that I would expect there to be some positive things to be said about Griffin for keeping his pick numbers so low. But this is where the respect thing comes in - people are arguing that Luck consistently, on a game-to-game basis, is attempting harder throws - throws that are more likely to get picked off, no matter who is throwing them. That doesn't mean RGIII isn't making fantastic throws himself, but that the designs of their respective offenses are such that the throwing responsibilities of Luck are greater, and that's a big reason for lower YPA, lower completion %, and higher INT numbers. We all understand that part of what makes RGIII so amazing is his running ability, although I think you're getting kind of hyperbolic again calling RGIII the best dual threat of all time. But certainly - even if I'm going to say that RGIII's throwing responsibilities are less than Lucks (and I really do - I think they are considerably less), the fact that they are less than Lucks is clearly because of how talented of a runner he is - again, this is a perfectly reasonable thing to point out when making a case for him, but it's just not as simple as comparing their stats because the game scenarios are so different.

Luck's leading the league in interceptions, but that's really the only big negative to his game. You're really going to have to try pretty darn hard to find another statistical reason to put RGIII ahead of him that holds as much water. Because aside from that, Luck is 4th in the league in total offense, second in the league in attempts per game (You were saying "RGIII is the Redskins offense, so consider those two stats to be counterpoints), the Colts are 3rd in the league in first downs (meaning that they consistently move the ball), and Luck leads the league in both 4th quarter comebacks (4) and game-winning drives (6). Particularly if you go back to last year's ranks and see that the Colts were 31st in first downs, have gone from 30th to 7th in total offense, 27th to 8th in passing yards... It's clear that Luck has had a huge impact on that team. The team that picked first overall is a lock for the playoffs. You just can't poo-poo that, no matter how amazing RGIII has been. That's why people feel disrespected when you claim anyone who doesn't think RGIII should win it "must not watch him." The case to make for Luck is more subtle, because it's almost more a matter of understanding what is required of Luck than simply watching him. I think to a lay fan, RGIII does look waaaaaay more impressive on the field, running around, breaking ankles and throwing bombs, but Andrew Luck is being very impressive in his own right - he just has a much different style of play. In some ways, I feel like Luck's performance at the combine is hurting him in this debate; he's such a good athlete (Analysts like to point out that his numbers were really similar to Cam Newton's) that I wonder if people think he should be making more splash plays instead of mastering the routine, which has always been his strength.

So as far as I'm concerned, you can really take your pick. Russell Wilson needs to finish the season in an absolute tear to be seriously in the conversation, being that he started much slower than the other two, but aside from the picks and running ability, there's not a whole lot RGIII has on Luck. Might throw a prettier deep ball. Same goes for Luck - you can say he has a better feel for reading NFL defenses, that he's doing it without really having a running game, that it all comes down the the overall record, etc. There's a lot to say about RGIII and again - I have no problem saying he's got the pole position right now, but it really takes the fun out of the debate when you've got people acting like they and theirs have got the only valid opinion on the matter and won't stop posting to that effect.

[xjxdarren]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Griff is houdini back there. Again not a nock on luck cause he's good too but RG3 is elusive as hell.

Since when is elusiveness is equated with pocket awareness?! Absolutely ludicrous. Or do you think Vick had elite pocket awareness as well? Safe to say your credibility is no where near the Fed's; not that it's your fault.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by xjxdarren

Since when is elusiveness is equated with pocket awareness?! Absolutely ludicrous. Or do you think Vick had elite pocket awareness as well? Safe to say your credibility is no where near the Fed's; not that it's your fault.

Again, you have to watch him play to trily understand. RG3 rarely has a pocket to step up in. But when he does he steps up properly, when he doesn't he evades the outside rush with the best of them. Then when he does stand tough he's constantly looking down field and will take the big hit but throw the ball into a small window with that pressure in his face. What is your definition of pocket presence? Mine is seeing or feeling the rush and reacting accordingly.

[WinslowBodden]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

I want to say the Dolphins for the following reasons:

1. Tannehill isn't 30
2. Because Browns
3. I like Miami's defensive coordinator and they have pass rushers

Although if you give Cleveland 1 or 2 pass rushers on defense and a WR or TE on offense, they suddenly look pretty good themselves.

Both teams are in tough divisions too. But I think Miami has a better chance bc Buffalo and NYJ are both meh, whereas the Steelers will always be the Steelers, the Ravens will always be the Ravens, and the Bengals look like an up and coming team as well.

The Browns are about 2 or 3 plays this year from being 7-6 or 8-5 which is really disappointing, but it is what it is.

I'm for once excited about what we have and moving forward, we are so much better with Haden and Taylor on the field it isnt even funny... And with Richardson getting a year to rest up I hope this team comes out firing next year.

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by y.f.s.

I don't understand why one has to be terrible for the other one to be good.

because internet.

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Again, you have to watch him play to trily understand. RG3 rarely has a pocket to step up in. But when he does he steps up properly, when he doesn't he evades the outside rush with the best of them. Then when he does stand tough he's constantly looking down field and will take the big hit but throw the ball into a small window with that pressure in his face. What is your definition of pocket presence? Mine is seeing or feeling the rush and reacting accordingly.

who are you even trying to convince or talk to at this point? All your points are just using stats that favor RG3 and use the most ridiculous "have to watch him play" argument. Stop it, just stop it. Get Ditka out here.

You're embarrassing yourself and making people not want to like RG3 with your ridiculousness.

[FUNBUNCHER]

But can the Colts beat the Texans??

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

who are you even trying to convince or talk to at this point? All your points are just using stats that favor RG3 and use the most ridiculous "have to watch him play" argument. Stop it, just stop it. Get Ditka out here.

You're embarrassing yourself and making people not want to like RG3 with your ridiculousness.

Says the guy whose STILL ADDED NOTHING TO THIS! Oh except for calling another guy an idiot and getting zero reaction from your buddys. Here's an idea, Quit making yourself look ridiculous by actually adding something to the discussion besides posts like this. Do you really think you've watched more of RG3 than me? Absolutely no way, the best you could do is see as much as me (which I highly doubt) and if that's the case then quit acting like you know something when it's obvious you're just an arm chair evaluator. I'm not going to sit here and talk about Tannehills tendencies or Weedens because I don't care. With Luck and RG3 I've spent a ton of time watching them so quit acting like you know sonething and prove that you do by proving me wrong.

[FUNBUNCHER]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

You're embarrassing yourself and making people not want to like RG3 with your ridiculousness.

The babies love RGIII.

[killxswitch]

Yeah but babies are stupid. I'm a father so I know.