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Old 12-14-2012, 05:37 PM    (permalink
JordanTaber
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As if it wasn't bad enough that many of the last several Super Bowl champions have left people going, "you know, the best team did not win the SB this year"...

Just wait until someone goes 6-10 and wins the Super Bowl. In fact, I hope it happens. I root for the league's demise now.

Oh, but they'll fix that by expanding the season to 18 regular season games as well. Hey, whatever happened to that? Did Goodell give up on that?
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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As if it wasn't bad enough that many of the last several Super Bowl champions have left people going, "you know, the best team did not win the SB this year"...

Just wait until someone goes 6-10 and wins the Super Bowl. In fact, I hope it happens. I root for the league's demise now.

Oh, but they'll fix that by expanding the season to 18 regular season games as well. Hey, whatever happened to that? Did Goodell give up on that?
Anyone arguing that any of the last several SuperBowl champs weren't the best team's in the league is an idiot. But yes it would be very funny to see a 7-9 superbowl champ, and if teams start being able to regularly get in with a 500 record, that'll eventually happen.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Anyone arguing that any of the last several SuperBowl champs weren't the best team's in the league is an idiot. But yes it would be very funny to see a 7-9 superbowl champ, and if teams start being able to regularly get in with a 500 record, that'll eventually happen.
Huh? You think the 9-7 Giants were the best team in football last year?

Or the Packers in 2010?

Or the 2007 Giants?

Or the 2006 Colts?

Or the 2005 Steelers?

Surprises/upsets can and should happen every once in a while. They shouldn't be happening nearly every season. "Parity" is out of control, and it'll be even worse if they include more teams in the postseason.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:48 PM    (permalink
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Huh? You think the 9-7 Giants were the best team in football last year?

Or the Packers in 2010?

Or the 2007 Giants?

Or the 2006 Colts?

Or the 2005 Steelers?

Surprises/upsets can and should happen every once in a while. They shouldn't be happening nearly every season. "Parity" is out of control, and it'll be even worse if they include more teams in the postseason.
yes to all of those. You cannot claim to be the best if you don't win the Superbowl. I don't care how talented a team is or what they're record says -- the top team is the one that has the Lombardi trophy.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:04 AM    (permalink
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yes to all of those. You cannot claim to be the best if you don't win the Superbowl. I don't care how talented a team is or what they're record says -- the top team is the one that has the Lombardi trophy.
Well, then following your logic through to its conclusion...a 6-10 playoff team that wins the Super Bowl was the best team in football that year.

I don't believe in that. Flukes happen. They should be allowed to happen, but there has to be a reasonable limit on which teams are eligible to win the whole thing.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:18 AM    (permalink
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You mean doing what the Giants, Steelers and Packers have done in the past decade? It's tough, but it's not that rare anymore.
Those teams never went 7-9. They won over half of their games.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:21 AM    (permalink
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By the way, I still don't believe the last team standing is always the best team in the NFL. Especially since there are two different conferences and the teams in each conference only play a specific team from the other conference every four years. The Giants for instance beat the Patriots last season. Would they have beat the Ravens had the Ravens gone to the Super Bowl if Evans just catches the ball? I don't know. I still don't think the 2007 Giants were the best team in the NFL that season, especially over New England, but the Giants won when they had to.

But you don't have to be the best team to be the champion. You just have to play through your conference, make the playoffs and get to the Super Bowl, and defeat one AFC/NFC opponent in the tournament. There just isn't enough of a sample size under the circumstances to always determine whether team A is definitely better than team B.

I think it's all just a question of personal definition and perception.
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:45 AM    (permalink
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By the way, I still don't believe the last team standing is always the best team in the NFL. Especially since there are two different conferences and the teams in each conference only play a specific team from the other conference every four years. The Giants for instance beat the Patriots last season. Would they have beat the Ravens had the Ravens gone to the Super Bowl if Evans just catches the ball? I don't know. I still don't think the 2007 Giants were the best team in the NFL that season, especially over New England, but the Giants won when they had to.

But you don't have to be the best team to be the champion. You just have to play through your conference, make the playoffs and get to the Super Bowl, and defeat one AFC/NFC opponent in the tournament. There just isn't enough of a sample size under the circumstances to always determine whether team A is definitely better than team B.

I think it's all just a question of personal definition and perception.
Evans didn't catch that ball though. And even if he did catch it, who are we to decide that means the Ravens would have won? What if he had fumbled it after the catch. Or what if Flacco never got the pass off and was sacked on the play? We can play "what-if" until we're blue in the face, but what we cannot do is change what actually happened. The Patriots beat the Ravens and went on to lose to the Giants in the Superbowl.

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Well, then following your logic through to its conclusion...a 6-10 playoff team that wins the Super Bowl was the best team in football that year.

I don't believe in that. Flukes happen. They should be allowed to happen, but there has to be a reasonable limit on which teams are eligible to win the whole thing.
a 6-10 team has never won the Superbowl, and I'm not convinced it will ever happen. However, if it does happen, I believe they would be the best team in football that year. Records don't mean anything to me at all. They're a means to help determine the playoff tournament bracket. From there, everyone is on a clean slate as far as I am concerned. If a team gets into the playoffs at 9-7, they have just as much claim to being the best as a team that gets in at 16-0 in my opinion.

I'm not saying other people are wrong for thinking differently btw, I'm just sharing my thoughts on how I view the significance of winning the Superbowl. To me it is simply to determine who is the best team in football that year.
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:56 AM    (permalink
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Evans didn't catch that ball though. And even if he did catch it, who are we to decide that means the Ravens would have won? What if he had fumbled it after the catch. Or what if Flacco never got the pass off and was sacked on the play? We can play "what-if" until we're blue in the face, but what we cannot do is change what actually happened. The Patriots beat the Ravens and went on to lose to the Giants in the Superbowl.
I'm aware of that. Which is why I'm saying if he did. And Flacco made a throw and Evans had the ball in his hands for a brief amount of time, this much we know is truth...so the sack scenario is irrelevant to the "what if" proposal which follows what happened after the specific set of events took place i.e. the throw and almost catch.

The point is the Patriots weren't convincingly better than Baltimore. Especially on the day. The game could have gone either way, and if Baltimore gets to the Super Bowl I'm not so sure New York defeats them. Which is why I still say the last team standing isn't necessarily the best due to the small sample size between conferences, and you don't need to be the best team to win the Super Bowl.

Every single Super Bowl team that has won in the history of this league wasn't necessarily the best of the particular season they won it all because they happened to win on a particular day. Are the 1990 Giants hands down the better team compared to the 1990 Bills because Scott Norwood barely missed a 49 yard field goal?

Sorry, I just don't believe that the last team standing is undeniably the best team of the season. Like I mentioned I don't follow the notion that you have to be the best team to win it all...and being the best team on a particular day I don't think merits the title of overall best team of the year. For some teams, I think having won the Super Bowl means you were "good enough" to qualify for the playoffs and have a chance to get the job done. And I think the accomplishments of the entire year have some value since they help determine seeding within the bracket...and we're measuring best team of the entire year...I think those accomplishments that occurred during the entire season should be taken into account when looking at best team of the season. Of course having a championship is higher on the list of being the best team of the year always. Not that I few them as two separate things all the time, but sometimes, yes.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:08 AM    (permalink
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Yes, the Giants were 1 point better than the Bills that year.

You might be thinking the Giants had no control over Norwood's kick and so the outcome of the game was not decided by them. But they did control the score up to that point. They were able to hold the Bills to 19 points while managing to score 20 point themselves.

I fully believe the Giants were the best team in football that year. And had Norwood kicked a slightly better ball, the Bills would have claim to that title.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:18 AM    (permalink
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Yes, the Giants were 1 point better than the Bills that year.

You might be thinking the Giants had no control over Norwood's kick and so the outcome of the game was not decided by them. But they did control the score up to that point. They were able to hold the Bills to 19 points while managing to score 20 point themselves.

I fully believe the Giants were the best team in football that year. And had Norwood kicked a slightly better ball, the Bills would have claim to that title.
Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm not going narrow down the title of best team to a chance kick that barley missed the upright before time expired. Personally. Especially since the Bills beat the Giants earlier that year. Like mentioned I don't think the team that wins the Lombardi trophy every single season is necessarily the best among everyone else. The Giants won the Super Bowl last season. I still think the Saints were probably a better team than they were. Maybe the best team that season. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:59 AM    (permalink
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Those teams never went 7-9. They won over half of their games.
But they did go on the road 3 straight weeks and then won the superbowl. Which was the part I was trying to say isn't that rare anymore.

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a 6-10 team has never won the Superbowl, and I'm not convinced it will ever happen. However, if it does happen, I believe they would be the best team in football that year. Records don't mean anything to me at all. They're a means to help determine the playoff tournament bracket. From there, everyone is on a clean slate as far as I am concerned.
This. The regular season only matters as far as qualifying for the playoffs matters. This isn't European soccer where the team with the best record wins the trophy, this is a sport where the trophy is given to the tournament champion, and so the regular season can only qualify you for the tourney.
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:51 AM    (permalink
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At first I was against it - but then I started thinking about the specifics.

The 1-seed has the exact same road.

The 2-seed loses out on a first round bye but gets two home playoff games. They are the losers in this switch to 7 teams. But really, who cares? Why should the 2nd best team in the conference be awarded a bye, which is a gigantic advantage? What separates the 2 and 3 most years?

3, 4, 5, 6 is the same.

Now on to 7. Yes, it feels wrong to add another team because the regular season matters less. But realistically, besides perhaps 'earning' the 'successful season by making playoffs' tag without a truly good year, this 7th seed, if it makes the Super Bowl will have to:

A) Win on the road at #2 in the conference.
B) Win on the road at #1 in the conference.
*This is way more difficult than the current alignment for 5/6.
C) Win on the road AGAIN in the conference.
D) Win the Super Bowl.

You show me a team that wins all of those games and I'm not so sure we're upset they made it at 7-9 or 8-8.

My point is that a 7-seed likely wouldn't win as much as the 6 and 5 seeds do now.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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if you can't beat the other team, you're not better than they are. period. unless we're going to play some idiotic version of "on paper, blahblahblah", in which case y'all might as well break out some box scores and determine the best team and we can stop bothering with the games.
Buffalo did beat them that season though. You can still beat a team that is overall better than your team and probably wins the contest the majority of the time.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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You mean doing what the Giants, Steelers and Packers have done in the past decade? It's tough, but it's not that rare anymore.
None of those were 7-9 teams.

I hate it cause it destroys the regular season. If there were 4 wildcards I automatically know the Steelers are in with these 3 weeks left. The way it is now next weeks game Witt Cincy is going to be huge.

And you can absolutely be better than teams you lose to. Just means they played better than you that day.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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i'm resigned to it, just like i'm resigned to march madness eventually including 128 teams. as long as people watch, and as long as advertisers will pay for the spots, and as long as it will make the network deals bigger, the nfl will do it. the game itself is always distantly secondary to the money.
This is a terrible idea. March Madness is fueled by gambling, and a lot of that has to do with those stupid brackets that we fill out every year. Nobody is going to fill out a 128 team bracket. I'm sure they'll eventually do it, but it's a stupid idea.

Also, yeah, I'm with almost everybody else. I don't want an expanded playoffs. It's still possible that the Packers won't make the playoffs this year, and that makes me care more about the game tomorrow. I suppose the counter argument would be that the Lions would still theoretically be in the playoff hunt.

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Old 12-15-2012, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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Even if the playoffs expanded to 16 teams, there would be a near 0% chance that a 6-10 team ever made it. Going back to the 2002 season, a 6-10 would've never been eligible for a hypothetical 16-team playoffs in any year and only one 7-9 (non-division winner) would've made it.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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But they did go on the road 3 straight weeks and then won the superbowl. Which was the part I was trying to say isn't that rare anymore.
I wasn't talking about just that aspect in my post though. Which is why I specifically mentioned a 7-9 team.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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None of those were 7-9 teams.

I hate it cause it destroys the regular season. If there were 4 wildcards I automatically know the Steelers are in with these 3 weeks left. The way it is now next weeks game Witt Cincy is going to be huge.

And you can absolutely be better than teams you lose to. Just means they played better than you that day.
You can be "better" than a team you lose to on a given day, but the best team in the league is the one that plays the best in the tournament. That's why they get the trophy.

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I wasn't talking about just that aspect in my post though. Which is why I specifically mentioned a 7-9 team.
But my point was that with a lower bar for postseason qualification you'll have teams taking the regular season less seriously and a lot of "better" teams with deflated records, so one of them doing what we've already seen a number of "underachieving" regular season teams do, wouldn't be very surprising at all. Completely hilarious, but not unexpected.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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*shrug* if you can't beat them when it matters, you're not better than them.
We'll have to disagree then.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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The best team in the league is the one that wins the Super Bowl. The regular season is merely a 16 game schedule that determines who gets the right to play in the single elimination tournament that determines the champion of the league. That's all it is. Once you get into the tournament, your regular season record is irrelevant. Nobody cares.

The tournament determines the best team. That's why they play the damn thing. If it didn't matter they'd give the trophy to the team with the most regular season wins.

Or like in some soccer leagues, have a point system for victories and give the trophy to the team with the most points at the end of the season.

But that's not how football works. There's 2 seasons within the season, and the regular season is strictly there to determine seeding for the tournament. The tournament determines the champion of the league.

It's pretty black and white to me.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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I pretty much agree with bbd on this one.
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that's because we're the only animal capable of getting it from other animals. the day a goat can milk cows, it will.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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I pretty much agree with bbd on this one.
You always agree with me.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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EDIT: Whoops.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:12 PM    (permalink
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so the best team is the one that can't close out important games? or they're the box score champion? i don't see how there's any other argument. *shrug* whatever. it just sounds like sour grapes from people whose team didn't win when they should have.
No I didn't say that. Or rather, I didn't narrow things down like that. The best team is difficult to tell sometimes to me because not everyone plays each other in the tournament and everyone plays each other once. I still don't think the 2010 Seahawks were a better team than the 2010 Saints even though they lost in the wildcard round. Flukes happen. Sometimes, I don't think everything is clear cut destiny for certain teams despite making it a certain distance.

As for your last sentence, I'm sorry to see you feel that way. Oh well. Unfortunately, at least from me, it has nothing to do with that rhetoric.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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