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View Poll Results: Who gets your vote for Rookie of the Year right now?
Robert Griffin 55 37.93%
Andrew Luck 56 38.62%
Russell Wilson 34 23.45%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-27-2012, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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Luck still has more turnovers than TDs.
I just don't like the argument that Luck has turned around a team that was 'historically' bad in 2011.

The Colts only won two games last season because they didn't have even an adequate backup on the bench behind Peyton Manning. There's this mythology that their entire roster was the most pathetic collection of players in the NFL.

And the point I think jsagan is making about Indy's defense in comparison to the SKins is that Washington's pass D is a nightmare. In most games if the Skins didn't score 24 points, they had very little to no chance of winning.

Unless RGIII has a near flawless game against the Cowboys, I think the player narrative favors Luck. 1/1 selection, led a 2 win team back to the playoffs and 10(+) wins. Set the rookie record for passing yardage.
That's it. I don't think most people are going to crunch his stats anymore than that.

Nonetheless I still think what RGIII has done is the more difficult lift. Having to basically win the division to make the playoffs and (possibly)going 3-1 against the Dallas/NYG, one of whom is the defending SB champs (before the wheels came off at the end of the season) for a franchise that hasn't won the NFCE in 16 years(just know this assumes the Skins put the smack down on the Cowboys this Sunday), I just think Griffin's rookie year has been more impressive.

In any other year Wilson/RGIII/Luck win this award in a sweep. I don't think this have ever really happened before with three rookie QBs, which is why I try not to get bent out of shape when others argue for someone not named Griffin.

The Colts made the playoffs because of Luck, not in spite of him. Same goes for Wilson, and hopefully Grif too.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:50 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
cite it.

i like, however, that the numbers can be twisted to your advantage at will (again, what's with the 23 point nonsense?), however whenever it's been pointed out, there's something about 'numbers in a vacuum' or some equally un-qualifiable criteria that's not really responsive. 'numbers in a vacuum' would be the implication that box scores are all that matter, for instance, not 'don't call me out for choosing the 2 numbers that make me look better.'

both teams have bottom 10 defenses. it's dishonest to act like indy has been riding a top 5 defense, while you've had the 32nd ranked defense, when that's verifiably untrue.
And when have I ever said that Indy has a great D? All I've said is the Redskins secondary has been historcially bad.

It’s been pretty well discussed to date, but I’m not sure enough people are talking about how putrid the Redskins passing defense is.

Article from 25 October...

http://www.redskinsgab.com/2012/10/2...ctane-defense/

"This pass defense isn’t bad; it’s historically bad. It’s actually on pace to allow 5,255 net passing yards, which would make it the worst pass defense that the NFL has ever seen. Ever."


http://www.realredskins.com/rich-tan...s-defense.html

"As you may have heard, the Redskins are on pace to give up over 5,000 passing yards this year. That would top the NFL record of 4,796 yards the Packers gave up last year. Even allowing for differences in rules that have made passing easier, that is quite an embarrassing performance."


We've miraculously have gone from giving up ~328 to ~287. I guess playing holding down Eli, Flacco, Foles and Weeden (at least some what) caused the shift. Now the Saints and Bucs seem to be on pace to crush that record..

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Old 12-27-2012, 08:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bob Sanders Dreadlock View Post
Turnovers are a good thing too!

Redskins are 10th in defensive TOs with 28, 18 INTs and 10 fumble recoveries
Seahawks are 5th in defensive TOs with 30, 17 picks and 13 FRs
The Colts are next-to-last in the league with only 13 total turnovers
That's definitely one thing this unit has done well this year and that's get turnovers at critical times.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
cite it.

i like, however, that the numbers can be twisted to your advantage at will (again, what's with the 23 point nonsense?), however whenever it's been pointed out, there's something about 'numbers in a vacuum' or some equally un-qualifiable criteria that's not really responsive. 'numbers in a vacuum' would be the implication that box scores are all that matter, for instance, not 'don't call me out for choosing the 2 numbers that make me look better.'

both teams have bottom 10 defenses. it's dishonest to act like indy has been riding a top 5 defense, while you've had the 32nd ranked defense, when that's verifiably untrue.


That's funny, I don't need to twist numbers, the luck huggers do. Most attempts by a rookie in a season, LIKE THATS A GOOD THING!?!? Of course he's going to get the passing record, isn't that obvious? Then they have to dig for stuff like Most wins by a first over all pick ever!! Well golly gee RG3 would have broken that record too! Why doesn't he have a number of TD's comesurate with his amount of passes and yards if he's that damn good? Blame the run game, blame the coach, blame everything but the one guy who is ultimately responsible for his own production and his own career. Blame Luck. He's only given a pass because he played a cupcake schedule and pulled out a bunch of games (which I completely see the comebacks as a negative) but I'm sure people won't understand why and I'll have to spend 10 days explaining it and still no one will agree with it cause (never mind too exhausting.)

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Old 12-27-2012, 10:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
Turnovers are a bad thing, and he has 23 of them. He's improved the team sure, but he isn't a demigod and the team around him is spectacularly lucky.
Did the Colts hang onto Reggie Wayne, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Adam Vinitiri because they were planning on rebuilding/sucking this year?

No.

They knew their division was crappy enough they could easily take 2nd in it, and they knew that this was a perennial playoff team that just happened to have one terrible year because of the QB problem.

They quit in October and tanked for Luck.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Did the Colts hang onto Reggie Wayne, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Adam Vinitiri because they were planning on rebuilding/sucking this year?

No.

They knew their division was crappy enough they could easily take 2nd in it, and they knew that this was a perennial playoff team that just happened to have one terrible year because of the QB problem.

They quit in October and tanked for Luck.
Quit in December eh? Remind me what happened in Foxborough on 12/04/11. They won 2 out of their last 3 nearly jeopardizing their so called "suck for luck". Nothing you say can ever be taken seriously and you lack any ounce of credibility.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bob Sanders Dreadlock View Post
Quit in December eh? Remind me what happened in Foxborough on 12/04/11. They won 2 out of their last 3 nearly jeopardizing their so called "suck for luck". Nothing you say can ever be taken seriously and you lack any ounce of credibility.
Who said December?
Who typed December?
You can't read.

I said they quit by October, much sooner than December.
They were 0-13 and laid down and died.

What's your point anyway?
You trying to discredit Wayne, Mathis, Freeney and everyone else to say Luck is personally responsible for +8 wins?
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Who said December?
Who typed December?
You can't read.

I said they quit by October, much sooner than December.
They were 0-13 and laid down and died.

What's your point anyway?
You trying to discredit Wayne, Mathis, Freeney and everyone else to say Luck is personally responsible for +8 wins?
Thank you for proving my point. If thry quit all the way back in October what business did they have nearly beating the patriots? Why did they win 2 of their last 3 games if they were attempting to suck? Freeney has looked confused all year. Wayne is having one of his best seasons ever thanks to luck.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Oh geezus :* is it commedy day in here?

Someone call up the NFL we have the best qb analyst ever on the board. Where were you a few weeks ago with your amazing analysis? The bandwagon shift on this board is second to none.
That's cute. Redskin fans always get cute when their team doesn't suck. I almost forgot how ******* annoying it is.

If youre gonna keep dishing out blowjobs to RGIII, you might as well ask him to put a ring on it.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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Hey now BBD let's not lump us all under that same umbrella lol. I'm still one of the sane Redskins fans on this board.
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Old 12-28-2012, 05:07 PM    (permalink
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Hey now BBD let's not lump us all under that same umbrella lol. I'm still one of the sane Redskins fans on this board.
He's a giants fan he don't know any better smh.
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Old 12-28-2012, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bob Sanders Dreadlock View Post
Thank you for proving my point. If thry quit all the way back in October what business did they have nearly beating the patriots?
So now "nearly" is what you use to try and prove your wrong point?
Last I checked, "nearly" doesn't count in the NFL.

By the way, the Arizona Cardinals actually DID BEAT the Patriots this season in Foxboro.
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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http://www.bloguin.com/thisgivensund...ar-debate.html
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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watching j-mike try and prove an actual football point or opinion is like watching a midget try and dunk on a 10 foot hoop
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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watching j-mike try and prove an actual football point or opinion is like watching a midget try and dunk on a 10 foot hoop
I can dunk a tennis ball.

I watch all the games on the Sunday Ticket, and provide stats. I didn't write that article that I posted just now.... it's probably too long for you to read anyway though, and isn't there a Rutgers game on now? Why are you here?


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Old 12-28-2012, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Very quality argument for Luck in that article. Similar to what some of us have been attempting to say but he does it in a very clear and professional manner. I wish the Griffin supporter in that article would have gone deeper. Thank you for sharing.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:19 PM    (permalink
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Very quality argument for Luck in that article. Similar to what some of us have been attempting to say but he does it in a very clear and professional manner. I wish the Griffin supporter in that article would have gone deeper. Thank you for sharing.
To be honest I've read the same arguments better articulated in many cases on SWDC.
It's just annoying to me to always read that Luck should win based on(legitimately IMO), breaking the rookie passing yardage record, team wins and his 4th quarter comebacks which I believe are also a rookie record.

However everything else in favor of Luck is just a slew of excuses about why he hasn't performed up to the level of Wilson/RG3.

Bad Oline, poor skill position players, bad D and a bad offensive scheme that forces him to throw.

Did the Colts have the most vertical offense among the 3 rookies by a significant margin?? I dunno.

When 20% of your argument in favor of a player are his accomplishments, and the other 80% are defending his lack of performance compared to other rookies, IMO that's a bad formula.

Cam Newton may not have had the wins Dalton had last season, but his individual resume was more impressive than Luck's.

Over 4K passing on 517 attempts, two 400+ yard passing games, 60% completions, 21 Tds/ 17 Ints, 35 total TDs, over 700+ yards rushing.

Wins for a QB IMO are still really important, and I wonder if these guys were rookies in the same season would Luck's rookie campaign still trump Cam's for most fans??

I just don't like reading the excuse making.
The case for Andrew Luck is strong enough with the passing record, the comebacks and the 10(+) win season.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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Well said funbunch & G mobile.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:11 AM    (permalink
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Hoping these guys will 'get it' is like hoping a 1st grader can fully digest a physics book.

Baby steps j, baby steps.

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He's a giants fan he don't know any better smh.
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I can dunk a tennis ball.

I watch all the games on the Sunday Ticket, and provide stats. I didn't write that article that I posted just now.... it's probably too long for you to read anyway though, and isn't there a Rutgers game on now? Why are you here?


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Old 12-29-2012, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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Every good thing RG3 does, there's always some detractor for his success. For every Sanchezesque stat Luck has there's an excuse.

Well anyone that isn't semi-******** can caveat Lucks season.

10 wins, great. Had the easiest schedule of the big 3 Rook QB's.

Took a 2-14 team to the playoffs. 2-14 team or team with 16 new starters (ding ding). They aren't close to the same team as the 2-14 team of yester year but people constantly ignore it like the colts are some entity that stayed the course with the same players, personnel, FO, and coaches after a 2-14 season and the only new piece is Luck (god it's annoying). They're a young team, over achieving in an easy division, with an easy schedule, who are ultra motivated by their coach's fight for his life. Great story, kudos to them for coming together but to insist it's all Luck instead of him being the main cog is lazy. Football is the ultimate team sport but I'm shocked to see that Luck doesn't lead his team in recieving, rushing, tackles, and return yardage. It's a huge slap in the face to the other players on that team.

Then you have the comebacks. My first question is, why was he put in that position to begin with? Well a lot of the time it's self induced. You can't turn the ball over that many times and expect your defense to hold. Also, if you are the best rookie QB ever, why are you not blowing some of the easier teams on your schedule out? And why aren't your stats better?

Lastly the passing record (smdh), so you fall behind mediocre opponents (a lot of times it's his own damn fault) so all of a sudden your in comeback mode and throwing the Into defenses giving you a lot of underneath stuff so they don't give up the big play and that allows one to rack up yards.

The last thing I'll point out is Lucks consistency. In most every walk of life the best in the world are consistent and that's no different than football.
Consistency is what seperates the Romo's an Eli's from the Peyton's, Brady's, Brees' and Arods'.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits...rt-griffin-iii

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits...74/andrew-luck


All you need to do is look at the two players splits to understand why RG3 is better than Luck and that's consistency. What we've seen from him is unheard of for a rookie, and usually only exists amongst the elite of NFL signal callers. Everyone expected Griffin to struggle but he's been a rock. Take away his #1 reciever, no drop off. Take away his all pro tight end and it made no difference, he just produced. Not only sometimes but all throughout games and has yet to have a rookie like outing. It's remarkable and no doubt a trend at this point. I have faith that Luck will get there but as of right now it's clear who the better QB is.







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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
To be honest I've read the same arguments better articulated in many cases on SWDC.
It's just annoying to me to always read that Luck should win based on(legitimately IMO), breaking the rookie passing yardage record, team wins and his 4th quarter comebacks which I believe are also a rookie record.

However everything else in favor of Luck is just a slew of excuses about why he hasn't performed up to the level of Wilson/RG3.

Bad Oline, poor skill position players, bad D and a bad offensive scheme that forces him to throw.

Did the Colts have the most vertical offense among the 3 rookies by a significant margin?? I dunno.

When 20% of your argument in favor of a player are his accomplishments, and the other 80% are defending his lack of performance compared to other rookies, IMO that's a bad formula.

Cam Newton may not have had the wins Dalton had last season, but his individual resume was more impressive than Luck's.

Over 4K passing on 517 attempts, two 400+ yard passing games, 60% completions, 21 Tds/ 17 Ints, 35 total TDs, over 700+ yards rushing.

Wins for a QB IMO are still really important, and I wonder if these guys were rookies in the same season would Luck's rookie campaign still trump Cam's for most fans??

I just don't like reading the excuse making.
The case for Andrew Luck is strong enough with the passing record, the comebacks and the 10(+) win season.

Last edited by jsagan77 : 12-29-2012 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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So now "nearly" is what you use to try and prove your wrong point?
Last I checked, "nearly" doesn't count in the NFL.

By the way, the Arizona Cardinals actually DID BEAT the Patriots this season in Foxboro.
A team that has thrown in the towel doesn't come back from however many they were down to almost win but thank you for proving again you know nothing.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:16 PM    (permalink
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Took a 2-14 team to the playoffs. 2-14 team or team with 16 new starters (ding ding). They aren't close to the same team as the 2-14 team of yester year but people constantly ignore it like the colts are some entity that stayed the course with the same players, personnel, FO, and coaches after a 2-14 season and the only new piece is Luck (god it's annoying).
First of all, there are 13 new starters by my count. Second of all, that's still extremely deceiving.

Their starting RB coming into the year was the #2 back on last year's 2-14 team. The current starter is a rookie. Their top two TE are both rookies. Their new starting receiver, Donnie Avery, is a major downgrade from Pierre Garcon. Out of their front seven this year, only one starter has ever played in a 3-4 defense prior to this season.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:21 AM    (permalink
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