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Old 01-03-2013, 01:55 PM    (permalink
Robcards
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Oh, I disagree totally. I think he is very consistent. Awesome against terrible defenses and DI-AA opponents and absolutely dreadful in championship/bowl games and South Carolina.
Because the other QBs in this class did so well against top 5 defenses like LSU, Alabama, and South Carolina right? Worst logic I've ever heard.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Because the other QBs in this class did so well against top 5 defenses like LSU, Alabama, and South Carolina right? Worst logic I've ever heard.
Really, so playing crappy when another team has as much talent as his own offense isn't a barometer of success to you? Georgia has great talent on both sides of the ball and if they had a great QB it could've made all the difference in the world. Even great defenses get lit up. You did say top 5 defenses, right? Isn't Florida ranked #5 and got lit up by Bridgewater DESPITE playing with significantly less talent around him than Murray does at Georgia.

Not to forget what Manziel did against Alabama and what Glennon did against FSU.

You can say what you want, but you're still wrong. Murray won't be drafted in round 1, he'll never be a quality starter, and I think it's doubtful he's stupid enough to come out this year... but then again, the QB prospects from this season are terrible and it might be his best shot to be one of the better ones.

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Old 01-03-2013, 02:27 PM    (permalink
Robcards
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Really, so playing crappy when another team has as much talent as his own offense isn't a barometer of success to you? Georgia has great talent on both sides of the ball and if they had a great QB it could've made all the difference in the world. Even great defenses get lit up. You did say top 5 defenses, right? Isn't Florida ranked #5 and got lit up by Bridgewater DESPITE playing with significantly less talent around him than Murray does at Georgia.

Not to forget what Manziel did against Alabama and what Glennon did against FSU.

You can say what you want, but you're still wrong. Murray won't be drafted in round 1, he'll never be a quality starter, and I think it's doubtful he's stupid enough to come out this year... but then again, the QB prospects from this season are terrible and it might be his best shot to be one of the better ones.
Almost all of Georgia's prospects are on the defensive side of the ball. Their offense doesn't have anywhere near as much talent as LSU, Alabama, or South Carolina's defense. The RBs might be early round picks in a few years but they're still freshmen, his o-line had 2 fairly early picks last year but this year they don't have any, his best TE last year was a late day 2 pick who hasn't done much of anything in Cincy, and his best receiver is likely a day 3 pick. Absolutely asinine to say his supporting cast is as talented as those defenses.

Bridgewater is the consensus #1 QB for next year, and no one, myself included is saying Aaron Murray is anywhere near as good as Bridgewater. So I'm not really sure what your point in bringing up last nights game is.

Glennon scored 17 on FSU didn't he? That's not my definition of lighting FSU up... And Manziel won the Heisman trophy, why would you even bring him up?

Lastly, I said late 1st or early 2nd, considering his draft evaluation was 2nd-3rd round and they are fairly conservative (Osweiler got a 3rd round grade and was drafted late 2nd as an example).
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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Colt McCoy, Chase Daniels, Kellen Moore, Christian Ponder, Greg Mcelroy, Jimmy Clausen, Colt Brennan.
But did they fail primarily due to their arm, or were they just not good QBs even if they had strong arms?
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:41 PM    (permalink
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But did they fail primarily due to their arm, or were they just not good QBs even if they had strong arms?
Ponder has dick at WR to throw to. I think it is way to early to write him off. He has plenty of arm strength to.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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But did they fail primarily due to their arm, or were they just not good QBs even if they had strong arms?
The world will never know.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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Almost all of Georgia's prospects are on the defensive side of the ball. Their offense doesn't have anywhere near as much talent as LSU, Alabama, or South Carolina's defense. The RBs might be early round picks in a few years but they're still freshmen, his o-line had 2 fairly early picks last year but this year they don't have any, his best TE last year was a late day 2 pick who hasn't done much of anything in Cincy, and his best receiver is likely a day 3 pick. Absolutely asinine to say his supporting cast is as talented as those defenses.

Bridgewater is the consensus #1 QB for next year, and no one, myself included is saying Aaron Murray is anywhere near as good as Bridgewater. So I'm not really sure what your point in bringing up last nights game is.

Glennon scored 17 on FSU didn't he? That's not my definition of lighting FSU up... And Manziel won the Heisman trophy, why would you even bring him up?

Lastly, I said late 1st or early 2nd, considering his draft evaluation was 2nd-3rd round and they are fairly conservative (Osweiler got a 3rd round grade and was drafted late 2nd as an example).
NC State won BECAUSE Glennon played an excellent game. He threw the ball effectively to get points and first downs and keep FSU off the field. Sometimes that's the way football works.

Why did I bring up Manziel? Winning the Heismann doesn't excluded him from the QBs that did well against great defenses, how could that prove anything other than the fact that Murray isn't anywhere close to being elite?

One more thing, the Georgia receivers are considered draftable prospects, the RBs are excellent and one of the primary reasons Murray is effective.

And if you admit yourself that Murray is nowhere close to Bridgewater, how is he a late first? He should at least be able to be mentioned in the same breath... and he's not. He's a career backup, Eric Zeier 2.0. When ranking UGa's QBs of the past decade or so I'd have to put Murray comfortably behind Mark Stafford and Quincy Carter but somewhere around the Eric Zeier-DJ Shockley range but above David Greene.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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But did they fail primarily due to their arm, or were they just not good QBs even if they had strong arms?
I think it is a big combination of all of them. Most young QBs struggle, they had more struggles than others because of the time the ball hung in the air. Danny Wuerffel is a great example of this. Seemed to make decent reads, made the throw, not terribly inaccurate, but defenders had that extra time to react and intercept or knock away the ball.

Brad Johnson and Chad Pennington were able to overcome this problem by constantly checking down to safer routes and only airing it out when it was a more favorable situation (man to man no safety over top or a blown coverage).

Jeff Garcia was able to overcome his popgun arm by being very accurate off his intial drop and if he went to alternate reads he kept the play alive with his feet, buying extra time for his receivers to get the needed separation to make a play.

Plain and simple, coaches aren't going to waste time with a young player that neither has the arm nor potential to be a good player. They're young so they already have one strike against them in not being able to process and read defenses presnap, then take out their ability to stretch a defense, and the ability to fit the ball into tight windows.. and a good part of why QBs with weak arms don't make it is because coaches don't have the patience to develop a young weak-armed QB with limited upside.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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NC State won BECAUSE Glennon played an excellent game. He threw the ball effectively to get points and first downs and keep FSU off the field. Sometimes that's the way football works.

Why did I bring up Manziel? Winning the Heismann doesn't excluded him from the QBs that did well against great defenses, how could that prove anything other than the fact that Murray isn't anywhere close to being elite?

One more thing, the Georgia receivers are considered draftable prospects, the RBs are excellent and one of the primary reasons Murray is effective.

And if you admit yourself that Murray is nowhere close to Bridgewater, how is he a late first? He should at least be able to be mentioned in the same breath... and he's not. He's a career backup, Eric Zeier 2.0. When ranking UGa's QBs of the past decade or so I'd have to put Murray comfortably behind Mark Stafford and Quincy Carter but somewhere around the Eric Zeier-DJ Shockley range but above David Greene.
Glennon threw for 250 yards 2 TDs and 1 INT. You stated that he 'lit up' FSU, which he clearly did not.

No QB in this class is as good Bridgewater or Manziel (at the college level at least, still doubt Manziel will be a good NFL QB). So yes they are both irrelevant to this discussion as they aren't draft eligible. You need to compare Murray to the other QBs in this class. The QB needy teams don't have the luxury of saying 'we'll just not draft a QB at all and stink next year too and draft a QB next year' that's not it works. Never mind the fact that I'm not even sure what you citing a heisman trophy winning QB performing well against a top 5 defense proves.

The gap between 'draftable prospects' and 1st rounders is HUGE. You're basically saying that Tavarres King, a likely 3rd day player going up against Dee Milliner, the top corner in the draft is an equal matchup. Come on man, you cannot be that obtuse.

Comparing Georgia QBs is completely useless. You want to talk about having a great supporting cast? Stafford had a top 5 pick WR and a top 15 pick RB. And yes a late 1st round QB can be not close in talent to a top pick QB for sure, you don't even need to go back that far, look at Weeden and Luck/RG3.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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Glennon threw for 250 yards 2 TDs and 1 INT. You stated that he 'lit up' FSU, which he clearly did not.

No QB in this class is as good Bridgewater or Manziel (at the college level at least, still doubt Manziel will be a good NFL QB). So yes they are both irrelevant to this discussion as they aren't draft eligible. You need to compare Murray to the other QBs in this class. The QB needy teams don't have the luxury of saying 'we'll just not draft a QB at all and stink next year too and draft a QB next year' that's not it works. Never mind the fact that I'm not even sure what you citing a heisman trophy winning QB performing well against a top 5 defense proves.

The gap between 'draftable prospects' and 1st rounders is HUGE. You're basically saying that Tavarres King, a likely 3rd day player going up against Dee Milliner, the top corner in the draft is an equal matchup. Come on man, you cannot be that obtuse.

Comparing Georgia QBs is completely useless. You want to talk about having a great supporting cast? Stafford had a top 5 pick WR and a top 15 pick RB. And yes a late 1st round QB can be not close in talent to a top pick QB for sure, you don't even need to go back that far, look at Weeden and Luck/RG3.
You know what, dude? In my opinion, he will fail at the NFL level. I have more evidence to support my opinion than you do for yours. If you disagree, wonderful! Take it up with Scott Wright, who also knows a thing or two about prospects, and thinks he's not a good prospect either.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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Haters gonna hate. Aaron Murray will be starting next year (assuming he declares). He'll get off to a rough start I'm sure, but he definitely has the arm and mobility and pocket presence to succeed at the next level. If the Jets get him in the 2nd I'd be thrilled.
Okay, here's the argument ender. If he is stupid enough to declare, he will be starting next year (in the NFL). If he declares next year, he will need to start that year. Until then, that is the deal. If he does, you're right, if he doesn't, I'm right.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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not that anyone is perfect but Scott misses on a lot of QBs
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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not that anyone is perfect but Scott misses on a lot of QBs
Everyone does. All I was trying to say that he is almost surely going to get taken before the 3rd round and get a chance to start. I never said he'd be a stud or will start for many years, just that he's highly underrated right now.

And for the record I liked Foles more than Tannehill and Weeden last year. Jury's still out on that one, but I'm off to a good start considering Foles has substantially more yards/game and is the only one of the 3 with more TDs than INTs
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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Everyone does. All I was trying to say that he is almost surely going to get taken before the 3rd round and get a chance to start. I never said he'd be a stud or will start for many years, just that he's highly underrated right now.

And for the record I liked Foles more than Tannehill and Weeden last year. Jury's still out on that one, but I'm off to a good start considering Foles has substantially more yards/game and is the only one of the 3 with more TDs than INTs
Okay, for the record I liked Tannehill better than Foles, and Foles a lot more than Weeden (which I've stated drafting him before round 3 would be stupid). I was also one of the first and few people on here that really liked Colin Kaepernick before he was drafted.... I also hated Jamarcus Russell and stated he would eat himself out of the league by his 5th season when he showed up at the combine. And when there was the debate about which QB was better between Bradford, Tebow, McCoy, etc, I stated the best NFL QB in college was a redshirt freshman named Andrew Luck. Not that he was definitely the best as perhaps Robert Griffin can prove he is better. I do pretty well with QBs. Other than his feet, game experience, and offensive system, I see almost no other desirable traits from Murray.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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Would I be totally out of line to suggest that the vast majority of QBs who can succeed in college have an adequate arm (strength wise) for the NFL, and assuming they can master the other aspects of the position, they are going to be a good pro? Considering that ball velocity etc can be improved with technique and training.

I tend to think arm strength is such a horribly overrated attribute that it should basically be struck from the lexicon of the draft analyst, only to be brought up in extreme cases, or when a prospect is so complete, he also happens to posses a strong arm. It seems to me it offers no avenue for success to the mentally incapable prospect, and it also offers no realistic guarantee of failure for the otherwise good prospect. So, why then is it even a topic of discussion?
There is a threshold or baseline for arm strength. Once you venture past that, you're likely going to be entering the point of diminishing returns anyways, due to over-reliance on the arm talent (think Cutler or Stafford).

Also....Murray's arm is underrated. At least on here, it seems.
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Tannehill was a better QB (than Gabbert) when he was still playing WR
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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But did they fail primarily due to their arm, or were they just not good QBs even if they had strong arms?
I think both depending on the case. I think if Moore or McElroy had better physical talent they could have been great QBs but honestly they just don't but they had a high football IQ.
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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Murray could likely be drafted in the first or second round. And then a few years later, his coach and GM are fired. I just don't see it at all with him.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:38 AM    (permalink
OzTitan
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There is a threshold or baseline for arm strength. Once you venture past that, you're likely going to be entering the point of diminishing returns anyways, due to over-reliance on the arm talent (think Cutler or Stafford).

Also....Murray's arm is underrated. At least on here, it seems.
That is pretty much a more eloquent way of what I was trying to say - there is a threshold, and beyond that the return per "unit" of arm strength is minimal for real world effectiveness, and IMO, the vast majority of college prospects are beyond the threshold to a point where an achievable level of ability in other aspects (mental, pocket awareness etc) would more than allow for an elite career.

My question is, how often does a QB who shows an adequate arm in college fail because of his arm in the pros? Not because of other factors, but clearly because of his lack of arm strength. I know that is a near impossible question to answer - the names brought up so far are all arguably not going to be helped much by obtaining a strong arm - but even just the fact it is basically impossible to truly know tells me it is a quality that is either highly overrated, and/or simply not worth worrying about at all.
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