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Old 01-22-2013, 02:31 PM    (permalink
stlouisfan37
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In his last 4 full games (not counting the season finale when he played 2 series) Joe Flacco is 76 of 129 (59%) for 1162 yards and 10 TD's with no interceptions. While his completion % may be considered a bit low, considering how often he throws downfield I think it is a very respectable number. In those 4 games he has beaten teams quarterbacked by Eli, Luck, Peyton and Brady. And I think, overall, he has played at an elite level.

If the Ravens win the Super Bowl, will he be considered a "trap" QB whose team carried him to a Super Bowl win, or will he then become enshrined into the "Elite QB" club?

If the Ravens lose the Super Bowl, will he be labeled the "trap" QB who was surrounded by a great team that failed because of him, or will he be considered an "elite" QB who fell just one step shy of getting a ring?

In my opinion, he has been as much responsible for this run his team is having as anyone.
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:53 PM    (permalink
Monomach
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I still strongly feel that you can't compete without one. Sure. One year of having 2 qbs who aren't in the top 10 doesn't really change my opinion. I don't see what's the big deal in that.

Youre actually looking pretty foolish right now. You're pimping 1 year of outlier data in the past 8 years as if that's the standard teams should follow.

It's pretty stupid.
You can't accuse me of pimping an outlier when you're pimping a mere 8 game sample size.

No one's saying that having an elite QB is bad. All we ever said is that teams are perfectly able to compete without one. That's what you guys argued against.

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This is the first year in 10 years that a Manning, Brady, or Roethlisberger isn't in the SB.

10 years.

We had one blip in 10 years. That doesn't all of a sudden change the trend. The trend will stay on its course.
Well, if you go back 10 years, we get more QBs who weren't elite. You can't retroactively give them credit for being elite when they either sucked or were average at that time and didn't become elite until a later time.

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Old 01-22-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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You can't accuse me of pimping an outlier when you're pimping a mere 8 game sample size.

No one's saying that having an elite QB is bad. All we ever said is that teams are perfectly able to compete without one. That's what you guys argued against.



Well, if you go back 10 years, we get more QBs who weren't elite. You can't retroactively give them credit for being elite when they either sucked or were average at that time and didn't become elite until a later time.
Elite is top 5. I'm arguing top 10. The hard part regarding this argument is that the list is dynamic and always changing.

Like 2 years ago I'd be very tempted to say Jay Cutler is a top 10 qb, but I don't feel that way anymore bc new guys come in, old guys see their skills start diminishing etc.

There are certain qbs that I honestly don't think have the skillsets you need to take their teams to the next level. Schaub and Dalton are 2 that instantly come to mind to me.

*shrug*
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Elite is top 5. I'm arguing top 10. The hard part regarding this argument is that the list is dynamic and always changing.

Like 2 years ago I'd be very tempted to say Jay Cutler is a top 10 qb, but I don't feel that way anymore bc new guys come in, old guys see their skills start diminishing etc.

There are certain qbs that I honestly don't think have the skillsets you need to take their teams to the next level. Schaub and Dalton are 2 that instantly come to mind to me.

*shrug*
Forget the numbers for a second, if there were 11 Tom Brady's in the NFL, does that mean one of them isn't superbowl capable? Don't tie yourself to arbitrary numbers. I think for a long time there were two truly elite QB's( Manning and Brady), but now we have 4, and Eli, is capable, and if he were more consistent, could put himself in that category, but you see more "bad Eli" than you see bad forms of the other.

Top 5 doesn't mean you are elite to me, but a lower number doesn't mean you aren't either. Depends on the talent currently in the league.

We had this discussion in the other thread, but I feel like Brees, Brady's, Rodger's teams have the most flawed concept.

I believe it was you that said "your elite QB should make up for your weaknesses". I agree, build up your D, because your elite QB can mask deficiencies on the other side of the ball.

Flacco is on Matt Ryan's level. Neither are as good as Eli, and Eli is still behind the top 4. It's nothing to do with rings, or whatever. The top 4 guys are pretty consistently awesome, and it seems that no matter who gets plugged in, they are elite on offense.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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Forget the numbers for a second, if there were 11 Tom Brady's in the NFL, does that mean one of them isn't superbowl capable? Don't tie yourself to arbitrary numbers. I think for a long time there were two truly elite QB's( Manning and Brady), but now we have 4, and Eli, is capable, and if he were more consistent, could put himself in that category, but you see more "bad Eli" than you see bad forms of the other.

Top 5 doesn't mean you are elite to me, but a lower number doesn't mean you aren't either. Depends on the talent currently in the league.

We had this discussion in the other thread, but I feel like Brees, Brady's, Rodger's teams have the most flawed concept.

I believe it was you that said "your elite QB should make up for your weaknesses". I agree, build up your D, because your elite QB can mask deficiencies on the other side of the ball.
Yeah I'm getting myself in trouble with these arbitrary numbers, you're right.

Perhaps the better way to describe it is categories like elite, franchise, jag, below avg qbs.

I think you can win a SB with elite and franchise qbs, but can't with jags or below average guys.

But then the whole "franchise qb" category is a bit blurred. Bc I think there's 2 levels within that category.

Like I guess you can say Eli and Ben are the higher tier of franchise qbs, whereas the Flaccos, Ryans, are the lower tier of franchise qb.

Then you have the up and comers who look like franchise qbs like Wilson, Luck, RGIII, Cam, Stafford, but it's too small a sample size to declare anything about them yet.

It's difficult to quantify.

I eliminate guys like Schaub and Dalton bc I just don't think they have the arm strength to be effective. But I can't make a black and white statement that eliminates all weak armed qbs either.

Its tough.

Top 10 was my barometer bc it was a simple way of trying to quantify it, but perhaps I have to change the categories to make it more accurate.
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:26 AM    (permalink
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The way I tend to think about it is in tiers. Guys get lumped together if I have a hard time separating them, or it's difficult for me to choose one, for instance...

tier 1

Rodgers
Manning
Brady
Brees

I know for sure I'd take those 4 guys over anyone, if 1 were off the board, and I had to draft one of the other 3, I'd be stuck deciding.

next I would have Eli. I know for sure I'd take those 4 over him, but then I also know there is no way I'd take anyone else. He's my clear 5, even if the first 4 are muddled.


It gets difficult the further down you go. For instance, I kind of feel the same way you do about Dalton. I think he can win games, he might be able to lead you to a better record than someone like say, Jay Cutler, but I don't think Andy Dalton has nearly the same odds of getting through the playoffs as Cutler and winning a title. Caretaker QBs don't win titles. You need guys that can take what they want from defenses as well as take what defenses give them.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:27 AM    (permalink
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For me tiers is the only way to go when ranking QBs. You waste too much time splitting hairs over little things that don't matter in strict rankings. I have the same top 4 as above, No one guy sticks out from the other 3 completely. I'd have Eli and Roethlisberger in the next tier down because they are a bit more inconsistent on a week to week basis, but put them in the playoffs down 6 with 2 minutes and they can win with the best of them.

When I call a player elite, it's by definition rare thing. There can't be 8 elite QBs in my book. Having 4 right now just shows how good of QBs we have at the top end right now. A guy can be playing at an elite level (like Flacco right now), but not be an elite player. In the draft there is only 1 or 2 prospects a year I would be comfortable calling elite and even that is a maybe. There is no quota that says there must be 3 elite players at any set position.
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