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Old 04-03-2007, 01:15 PM    (permalink
Jughead10
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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner View Post
Call me crazy, but I think that the fortunes of the Giants passing game lies in how early and often Coughlin can get Shockey involved.
That would help. When Shockey gets the ball the stadium erupts when we are at home. And it always seems to have an effect on the offense. Really gets them going efficiently.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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He played an excellent game, there is no arguing that. You said that "the month of December was his downfall", and you want to include the first game of December in that mix simply because of the arbitrary marker of the turning of the calendar from November to December. I'm telling you, his problems did not begin until the New Orleans game (in which he wasn't that bad) and continued in the Philly game (in which he was very bad), but those two games were sandwiched between games that he was very good. The Giants game, though, was one of his best, even though the statistics don't reflect that. He made every big play he needed to make in that game to win it, including one of the best QB plays of the year by anyone.

The ridiculous assertion that "defenses had figured him out" is way overblown. That's like saying that defenses had figured Donovan out, or defenses had figured Hasselbeck out, etc. The only thing that could possibly reference is that he is at his best when he gets out of the pocket, but stopping him from doing that is easier said than done. And beyond that, he made plenty of plays from inside the pocket. It's not like its outside: good, inside: bad. That's stupid.

Anyhow, to put the numbers in perspective, in the final 4 games (where the team struggled visibly, along with Romo at times), if you were to eliminate the rest of the season, and just go with his numbers, he would still have outproduced Eli Manning for the season:

Name......Att pg....Comp pg....%.....YPG.....YPA.....TD%.....Int%....Rat
Romo.......30.8.......18.8........61.....247.5.... .8.05....4.9......4.9.....82.5
Eli...........32.6........18.8.......58......202.. .....6.21....4.6......3.4.....77.0

As you can see, if Romo's finish to the season is such cause for concern, and "defenses figured him out", then what is there to say for Eli, who has had 4x the game-time experience, and supposedly has so much more natural talent?
See, now this is why these threads get out of hand. I, in no way was making a comparison to Manning and Romo but being the insecure Cowboys fan you are, you feel that throwing out numbers that can't be taken seriously because of the situations they were thrown into down the stretch was needed. I was simply implying that Romo really struggled down the stretch (last 5 games) and that is usually the case when young QBs have early. Defenses figure out their weaknesses and exploit them and it is up the coaching staff and QB himself to minimize those exploitations. Romo did not do that down the stretch, that's all.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Call me crazy, but I think that the fortunes of the Giants passing game lies in how early and often Coughlin can get Shockey involved.
Oh don't get me started on that. We have a top tier talent at TE, and we use him as a decoy to open up the WRs deep instead of designing plays to get him the ball.

He's nothing more than a deep streaker for us who pulls the safety one way so the WRs can get the ball downfield. Its a waste of his talents to use him that way, but hey, thats Coughlin for ya.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Ricky, the Giants need to draft another WR or 2 in this draft because their talent is aging or unproven after Burress. Fact is, even Burress is getting older. It has nothing to do with Sinorice Moss's development. Of course, if he is able to contribute, that helps them tremendously.

In 2007-2008, Eli will be forced to develop. With Tiki gone, Burress will be doubled even more constantly. That means that Jacobs, Moss, Shockey, and Toomer will have to do damage for the Giants to move the ball. If Eli can make the adjustments, he will have a good year, perhaps even a great year. If he cannot, the Giants are pretty much doomed.
Which is why I am calling for Ted Ginn on the Giants next year and most of the G-Men fans here don't agree with me. Ginn would be huge for this team and Eli.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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Call me crazy, but I think that the fortunes of the Giants passing game lies in how early and often Coughlin can get Shockey involved.
We have been crying about that for quite some time now. You don't even wanna know Shockey's first half of the game stats last year.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Ginn could fall to the Giants, but I think they have the speed guy already in Moss. Ginn and Moss are pretty much the same player. Ginn is a little more explosive, but both play similar roles. I think it's better for the Giants to get the best WR prospect available that they want. A guy like Dwayne Bowe or Robert Meachem, if they pan out, will have similar effects on the offense.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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In conclusion...Coughlin sucks.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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In conclusion...Coughlin sucks.
Or people just over exxagerate the bad. And fail to look at the good.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Ginn could fall to the Giants, but I think they have the speed guy already in Moss. Ginn and Moss are pretty much the same player. Ginn is a little more explosive, but both play similar roles. I think it's better for the Giants to get the best WR prospect available that they want. A guy like Dwayne Bowe or Robert Meachem, if they pan out, will have similar effects on the offense.
But the thing is...even with Moss our WRs are not fast enough. Nobody gets seperation and part of it was due to the scheme. Eli is constantly forced to fit the ball into tight spots and having Ginn on the field would change that. Plus, I don't view Moss as a deep threat and Eli's best trait is throwing the deep ball. Yes Plax can go deep and make the big catch but I would not exactly call him a deep threat. Ginn would be huge for this offense.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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What good was there really in the overall offensive design of the Giants last year? They didn't use viable parts of the offense, and that cost them games, almost the playoffs. That's just bad coaching.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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Alright, fine. I lied. I attempted to stay out of the conversation, and I was unable to. I am weak!
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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But the thing is...even with Moss our WRs are not fast enough. Nobody gets seperation and part of it was due to the scheme. Eli is constantly forced to fit the ball into tight spots and having Ginn on the field would change that. Plus, I don't view Moss as a deep threat and Eli's best trait is throwing the deep ball. Yes Plax can go deep and make the big catch but I would not exactly call him a deep threat. Ginn would be huge for this offense.
Just quickly looking over stats from last year. Out of the 20 WRs with the most yards in the league, only Lee Evans, Joey Galloway, Roy Williams, and Chad Johnson had more yards per catch than Burress.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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But the thing is...even with Moss our WRs are not fast enough. Nobody gets seperation and part of it was due to the scheme. Eli is constantly forced to fit the ball into tight spots and having Ginn on the field would change that. Plus, I don't view Moss as a deep threat and Eli's best trait is throwing the deep ball. Yes Plax can go deep and make the big catch but I would not exactly call him a deep threat. Ginn would be huge for this offense.
Fair enough. I assumed Sinorice had similar deep speed to his brother. Still, drafting Ginn would be admitting that Sinorice was a mistake last year, and that would be unfortunate. I can't foresee a 3 WR offense of Burress-Ginn-Moss really doing a lot against press coverage. The mix of talents is key to running an offense. You need guys with speed, size, strength, hands, etc. The mix of skills and playcalling is what separates teams.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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Sinorice does have similar speed to his brother. He was just hurt all year. He played in 4 games? He was easily the fastest and shiftiest player on the field for us. Sinorice definately has more than straight line speed.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Or people just over exxagerate the bad. And fail to look at the good.
One of the biggests arguments used in favor of Coughlin is that he's the first HC to get us bck to back playoff appearances since Parcells.

Do you honestly think that he earned that stat though? We got in at 8-8. Now granted, we were injured like hell, but still. Great coaches will their team to win. I never see that with us.

We go as far as our talent takes us. Our coaching staff is poor at making adjustments and at player utilization. That falls on Coughlin.

Regardless of what he did last year, at the end of the day, he underachieved. We were supposed to be a SB caliber team, and we went 8-8, and lost in the playoffs in a gutless fashion at the end of the game.

My main issue is, I think Coughlin has been hurting the development of Eli Manning. He's not making things easy for him. Coaches adjust to their young qbs, Coughlin is just forcing his way down Eli's throat without adjustments to suit Eli's game. Im not a Coughlin fan.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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Actually, when I was signing up I had zero inspiration and I was wearing a shirt of this brand

So I used that, and it wasn't registered.

That's a cool sigpic though. By lack of a better one, I'll use it.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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One of the biggests arguments used in favor of Coughlin is that he's the first HC to get us bck to back playoff appearances since Parcells.

Do you honestly think that he earned that stat though? We got in at 8-8. Now granted, we were injured like hell, but still. Great coaches will their team to win. I never see that with us.

We go as far as our talent takes us. Our coaching staff is poor at making adjustments and at player utilization. That falls on Coughlin.

Regardless of what he did last year, at the end of the day, he underachieved. We were supposed to be a SB caliber team, and we went 8-8, and lost in the playoffs in a gutless fashion at the end of the game.

My main issue is, I think Coughlin has been hurting the development of Eli Manning. He's not making things easy for him. Coaches adjust to their young qbs, Coughlin is just forcing his way down Eli's throat without adjustments to suit Eli's game. Im not a Coughlin fan.
Or maybe the fact that with every insult someone has about his passing attack they fail ever mention one thing about how great his rushing attack is. I love Tiki, but he wasn't anything but an extremely mediocre RB before Coughlin came. These three years under Coughlin can be compared to any three years a RB has ever put up in the histroy of the NFL. Including Jim Brown.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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What does Tiki's success have to do with the fact that Coughlin hasn't helped Eli Manning make the necessary adjustments to be an All-Pro NFL QB? I'm not arguing that Tiki's turnaround wasn't driven by Coughlin. I believe the point was that the lack of in-game adjustments and the offensive scheme were lacking for the Giants. The regression of Eli in the second half of the last 2 seasons is also becoming a consistent pattern. At what point do you blame the coach for those issues?
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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Or maybe the fact that with every insult someone has about his passing attack they fail ever mention one thing about how great his rushing attack is. I love Tiki, but he wasn't anything but an extremely mediocre RB before Coughlin came. These three years under Coughlin can be compared to any three years a RB has ever put up in the histroy of the NFL. Including Jim Brown.
This is true. And while I do give Coughlin credit for Tiki and the run game...why the hell didn't he use it more?

With our run game, why didn't we try to use it to keep defenses honest? Why are we going empty set in the redzone? Why aren't we uses PA pass in the redzone?

As good as our offense was, anyone who watches the Giants knows it couldve and shouldve been better. And thats because Coughlin didn't use his parts properly.

We couldve used Tiki in the pass game much more too. We never lined him up wide, we rarely ran him in the flats. He was just a 4 yard up the middle dump off. We couldve done so much more with him.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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Coughlin is not as bad is some make him out to be, but I don't see him as a Super Bowl coach to be blunt.

And our main coaching issues lie within the coordinators and certain positional coaches who seem to have too much power now a days.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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Coughlin is not as bad is some make him out to be, but I don't see him as a Super Bowl coach to be blunt.

And our main coaching issues lie within the coordinators and certain positional coaches who seem to have too much power now a days.
This is true. To me Coughlin's biggest flaw, and it was huge one, was his loyalty to assitants no matter how terrible they were. That being said I could definately see a difference in playcalling the last two games of the year with Gilbride as OC.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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There's nothing wrong with loyalty. IMO, loyalty to one's team, players, and colleagues has been lost as a valuable and honored trait in pro sports. If anything, I give Coughlin a ton of credit for sticking with his guys and putting his own reputation on the line.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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I hope I see changes, but Im not expecting it. Look guys, its Coughlin who runs the offense. Huffnagel was a puppet. This was Coughlin's playbook. And Gilbride already publicly said he wants to go vertical more, ie we're gonna do the same junk again this year. You want a change on offense, then TC has got to go. You might see some new wrinkles, but this offense will be very similar to the one we were all bitchin about this past year.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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What does Tiki's success have to do with the fact that Coughlin hasn't helped Eli Manning make the necessary adjustments to be an All-Pro NFL QB? I'm not arguing that Tiki's turnaround wasn't driven by Coughlin. I believe the point was that the lack of in-game adjustments and the offensive scheme were lacking for the Giants. The regression of Eli in the second half of the last 2 seasons is also becoming a consistent pattern. At what point do you blame the coach for those issues?
1. Perhaps Eli isn't as good as we all want him to be. I'm becoming more accepting of that fact every day.

2. I was just making a general statement. Coughlin gets a lot of crap in the media. And its all not nearly warranted. He gets a lot of the blame for Eli's troubles and the passing game, but then on the other side Tiki gets all the credit for the rushing attack. The media in NY hates him, for various political and personal reasons. When attempting to criticize Coughlin they are trying to have their cake and eat it too.
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