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Old 04-03-2007, 04:33 PM    (permalink
LSUALUM99
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I did say just kidding in the second paragraph.....

Also, I wasn't commenting on other people's statements as much as answering the original topic of discussion.

That being said, I've heard several Coaches say in some of the more candid interviews that what a QB is doing around starts 20-25 are about what he's going to do for the remainder of his career.

In various threads over the past year I've broken down how QB's have progressed through the years and that seems to be pretty accurate. There are some that have progressed and some that have regressed, but the vast majority seem to fall into the Dennis Green theory (they are who we thought they were) about that time.
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Old 04-03-2007, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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I think Romo will only get better, because of 3 things:

1. Experience
2. Go through a full training camp as a starter, gaining him better chemistry with his recievers.
3. Our offensive line is much improved.
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Old 04-03-2007, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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how does Eli have a hard time making plays with the game on the line????? that is his calling card. the man is clutch as hell and turns it on in the fourth quarter and runs a fantastic 2 minute drill
I can't believe i forgot to check back on this thread....so this is a couple pages late but wow...do you really believe that?

It was some two minute drill he ran against Tennessee...and some clutch game he had against New Orleans...and Jax...and Chicago...yeah...

clutch?

Edit: He also has a career 4th quarter rating of 72.1 .... with more INT than TD being thrown.

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Old 04-03-2007, 06:12 PM    (permalink
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I can't believe i forgot to check back on this thread....so this is a couple pages late but wow...do you really believe that?

It was some two minute drill he ran against Tennessee...and some clutch game he had against New Orleans...and Jax...and Chicago...yeah...

clutch?

Edit: He also has a career 4th quarter rating of 72.1 .... with more INT than TD being thrown.
At what point did Eli screw up against New Orleans with the game on the line? Jax? Chicago?

He had bad games against them yes, but he did not screw up with the game on the line.
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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At what point did Eli screw up against New Orleans with the game on the line? Jax? Chicago?

He had bad games against them yes, but he did not screw up with the game on the line.
Yeah I realized that after I posted I was just looking at bad games which didn't really answer GRF obejction at all, which is why I added his 4th quarter rating to emphasize my point. The tennesse game tho is still my best example. I don't think it's fair to say that eli plays his best with the game on the line though..
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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Yeah I realized that after I posted I was just looking at bad games which didn't really answer GRF obejction at all, which is why I added his 4th quarter rating to emphasize my point. The tennesse game tho is still my best example. I don't think it's fair to say that eli plays his best with the game on the line though..
He does play his best when in the no huddle, AKA when he can make his own calls. And that happens to be at the end of games when in a hurry up offense with the game on the line.

Is he 100% successful? Of course not. But he does indeed play his best football when the game is on the line, and that is what you will hear from most commentators when watching the game live.
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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being a giants fan i am obviously biased but honestly, between all 4 Qb's and the team surronding them, predicting how they will do this year is just as hard as to predict the 1st round of the draft complete with trades. You just never know whats gonna happen
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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Yeah I realized that after I posted I was just looking at bad games which didn't really answer GRF obejction at all, which is why I added his 4th quarter rating to emphasize my point. The tennesse game tho is still my best example. I don't think it's fair to say that eli plays his best with the game on the line though..
Thats one game compared to maybe 6 to 7 I can name where he came up clutch. Eli's nickname at one point was 4th quarter Eli in the local papers.

Ask anyone who watches him regularly, they'll tell you.

Don't listen to GRF, he gives us a black eye when talking about Eli.
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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He does play his best when in the no huddle, AKA when he can make his own calls. And that happens to be at the end of games when in a hurry up offense with the game on the line.

Is he 100% successful? Of course not. But he does indeed play his best football when the game is on the line, and that is what you will hear from most commentators when watching the game live.
He may play his best football when he is in the no-huddle, but that could also be a result of teams playing a prevent defence at the end of halves/games, allowing him to get many more completions and yards than he should. I live in Jersey so I see a good amount of Giants games, but obviously not as much as actual Giants fans do, so you would still have a better understanding of when he plays well and when he doesn't. I'll concede he may be better with the no huddle, but not with the game on the line, that I still need to be proven, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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BBD, 100% on. something kicks inside eli down the stretch in the 4thquarter. Unfortunatly like games vs Dallas, and the playoff game vs philly, Eli drove us down for scores but the D blew it
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Thats one game compared to maybe 6 to 7 I can name where he came up clutch. Eli's nickname at one point was 4th quarter Eli in the local papers.

Ask anyone who watches him regularly, they'll tell you.

Don't listen to GRF, he gives us a black eye when talking about Eli.
I'm sure he's come up clutch in some situations, but as I said earlier, personally I need to see him do it a little more consistently to be sold on him. Not that he can't do it, I'm just saying I haven't seen it yet. Than again, I don't watch every game live, just when I can't get my Chargers games, so a lot of what I know about him comes from highlights on ESPN, which im sure we all know isn't always unbiased or correct in any way.

As for that last part, I kinda picked up on that by now haha.
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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I'm sure he's come up clutch in some situations, but as I said earlier, personally I need to see him do it a little more consistently to be sold on him. Not that he can't do it, I'm just saying I haven't seen it yet. Than again, I don't watch every game live, just when I can't get my Chargers games, so a lot of what I know about him comes from highlights on ESPN, which im sure we all know isn't always unbiased or correct in any way.

As for that last part, I kinda picked up on that by now haha.
Of course, I agree. He's not like Tom Brady or Brett Favre when it comes to comebacks, but he's not Tim Couch either.

He has a long way to go, but he's shown promise that he can be counted on when the chips are down. More often than not, he brings his A game in the clutch. And thats ultimately, what you want. Thats all we're saying.
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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Of course, I agree. He's not like Tom Brady or Brett Favre when it comes to comebacks, but he's not Tim Couch either.

He has a long way to go, but he's shown promise that he can be counted on when the chips are down. More often than not, he brings his A game in the clutch. And thats ultimately, what you want. Thats all we're saying.
Haha i gotcha, no doubt about that.
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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I'm sure he's come up clutch in some situations, but as I said earlier, personally I need to see him do it a little more consistently to be sold on him. Not that he can't do it, I'm just saying I haven't seen it yet. Than again, I don't watch every game live, just when I can't get my Chargers games, so a lot of what I know about him comes from highlights on ESPN, which im sure we all know isn't always unbiased or correct in any way.

As for that last part, I kinda picked up on that by now haha.
Which games do you feel he has not come through in the clutch?
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Old 04-03-2007, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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I don't understand this whole clutch talk? I don't like Manning, but it's pretty safe to say that he plays his best football in the clutch and in the 4th quarter. He's a slow starter, but he almost always plays well late in the game. He was pretty clutch against the Eagles and in OT, and I'm sure there are many more examples.
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Old 04-03-2007, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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Which games do you feel he has not come through in the clutch?
Well like I said I haven't watched half as many games as you guys have but the problem is, from what I remember (which is limited) a lot of their losses he wasn't in a position to be "clutch" as they were by a good amount of points. The only game I can think of off the top of my head is the Tennesee game, but my argument would be which games as he come through in the clutch to offset that so much. If we are talking about close games they won and lost,

He came through in the clutch against Philly the first time around, and I guess you could say Houston as well, but I think that is more of a stretch. That is contrasted by his performance against Tennessee. If there are more games where you would define him as clutch list them, but since im not a NYG fan I don't know all their games from start to end.

My main thing I intended by saying he hasn't come through in the clutch was not necesarily that he never did, but that he was too inconsistent when there was a win or lose situation on the line late in the game like that.
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Old 04-05-2007, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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My point is that we were discussing that Romo did not play well in December, and then I see Eli Manning's stats over the last 4 games. What the hell does that have to do with a discussion about Romo and his dropoff in play? You know what I think it is? I think it's a defensive Cowboys fan trying to put attention elsewhere because all of you reached some sort of emotional peak with Romo's early performance, only to be brought back down to earth. Thus, pointing to Eli's struggles down the stretch (which were definitely poor) made you personally feel better. Yes this is an NFC East thread, but we dove into an analysis if you will concerning Romo, and Romo only.

As for my quotes that bothered you

1-Comparing the situations of the two teams down the stretch is not entirely fair. They played a similar strength of schedule, yes....but Romo was not missing his LT and was not missing his most reliable WR. The Cowboys #2 and #3 WRs were much eaiser to work with than the likes of Tim Carter, David Tyree, Michael Jennings, whoever else you want to throw in there. Yet they still had similar numbers in December.

2-Romo's last 5 games were well below the standard he was put at after his hot start. Watching those games, he did not appear nearly as confident in the pocket and his ball security took a major nosedive.
Sorry it took me so long to respond to this, but I've been a bit busy lately and haven't been able to check the site as regularly as I would have liked to....

...that said, I have to send a big lmao your way on misunderstanding me with the Eli/Romo deal.......those were not Eli's December numbers, they were his numbers for the whole season, lol. Yeah, he was that bad for the year. You can't use the injury excuses, or anything else. That was how he performed for an entire year, against Tony Romo's worst stretch of his career up to this point, and Romo's numbers were still head and shoulders better than Eli's in every way except Int% (which I already addressed).

In fact, Eli Manning's struggles down the stretch sure don't seem to get much pub, when he actually did play waaaaaaaay worse than Romo did. Here are his comparison's:

Name......Att pg....Comp pg....%.....YPG.....YPA.....TD%.....Int%....Rat
Romo(last 4)30.8...18.8........61.....247.5.... .8.05....4.9......4.9.....82.5
Eli(Season)32.6.....18.8.......58......202.. .....6.21....4.6......3.4.....77.0
Eli (last 4)..31.......16.5........53.....158.........5.07.. ..4.0......2.5....69.5


So, Tony Romo struggled mightily down the stretch even though his numbers, on a per game basis, would have placed him in the upper half of the league in all but one category among NFL QBs for the season, while Eli Manning had a bit of a rough stretch that was due mainly to him missing his LT and his #2 WR. Yet somehow, Tony had 8% better completions, 90 yards per game more while attempting the same number of throws, 3 yards per attempt better, and nearly a full 1% higher TD%....for a total of 13 Rating points better. And somehow a big deal is being made of Romo and his struggles, but Eli just drifts by unnoticed? That was my point. Oh, and in case you want to use his line-play as an excuse, he was only sacked 5 times in those final games, as opposed to the 12 that Romo was sacked......and we all know that Romo is far superior at avoiding the rush, both inside the pocket and as a scrambler.

All this statistical evidence (which I will admit is not the end-all-be-all, but it certainly has to play a large part) to counteract what you are saying, and your response is basically "Well, you could just tell by watching him". If you actually watched him throughout his hot start, you would know that what you said about his ball-security issues and pocket presence is not true. He always held the ball that way, he just wasn't made to pay for it until later on in the season. In fact, when Parcells was trying to temper the enthusiasm of the media members regarding Tony's play, he was asked what, exactly, it was that Tony was "getting away with" that he (BP) was refering to. Parcells specifically mentioned him not keeping two hands on the ball at all times. Within a week or two after that he had multiple fumbles in one game and BP made sure to remind the reporter what he had said.

As for "he did not appear nearly as confident in the pocket", you apparently don't know what you are talking about. I have every Cowboy game from the season on DVD, and have watched those final games multiple times since the season ended. In no way, shape, or form did he ever appear to lose any confidence in himself, his protection, or his reads. In fact, if anything he appeared over confident, which led to him making a couple of throws that he had no business attempting. So I'm afraid you're a tad off base on this one.

Finally, while your opening statements, specifically your wonderful job of psycho analysis that provided a deep glimpse into my mind and motiviations, were quite charming, I'm afraid that they were also a mis-fire. My stance on Tony Romo has remained the same since he took the starting job and ran with it, and that is that he has shown a great deal of promise, but I'm going to need to see much more before I buy into him being a great, or even a very good, young QB. He needs to refine quite a few things in his game, specifically his inner gunslinger that takes control much too often, before he can be counted on to lead our team where we dream of going.

It's funny that you would call me that, though, because all it really does is reveal what's going on inside your head, ie, "I'm a jealous division rival that got sick of hearing about how great this guy was playing, and now I'm going to jump on the opportunity to call him over-rated and/or a fraud." I get it, and its cool. If you want to know, I was the guy that was cautioning all the Romosexuals to keep it in their pants and not to crown his ass. I loved what I was seeing, but when you find yourself in a position where a guy that you spent little to nothing to acquire is moving into position to be a franchise corner stone, you are always waiting for the other shoe to drop. At this point in time, it is all still up in the air with Tony. I'm not going to say that he will be great, or that he will be able to match his genuinely unbelievable start from last season. What I will say is that he has shown enough right now to earn plenty of respect for what he did last season. In fact, we have more reason to believe that Tony Romo is going to be a future star than we do for Jason Campbell OR Eli Manning, simply because we've seen it with him. He has actually done it. That should count for something, and a bunch of envious, slandering anti-fans should not be allowed to spread a misconception to the general populace based upon their own feelings of resentment. So that's why I feel the need to post this.
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Old 04-05-2007, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Okay, can we now close the book on this?
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Old 04-05-2007, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Not until Number10 admits that he was vastly overblowing the whole "Romo struggled massively down the stretch" angle. That's all I'm asking.
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Old 04-05-2007, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bsaza2358 View Post
Okay, can we now close the book on this?
Wait, I just have to ask this one question to DMW.

So the fact that Romo's team barely had any significant injuries to effect his performance where Eli's team had his LT and WR who lead the team in receptions go down has no bearing on this discussion?

How is that fair.

Look at Carson Palmer's #s during the games when Levi Jones went down. Not that great at all. And he's better than both said qbs by a fair margin.

Eli had his LT, and the WR who led the team in catches go down. He was left with a WR who gives up on plays, and a hobbled Shockey to throw to. The 3rd receiver didn't even exist.

On top of that, it was his responsibility to open up the run game with the pass.

Contrarily, the run game opens up Romo. His team stays healthy. He doesnt have to come back from behind nearly as much as Eli.

And this has no bearing on the stats?

Im not gonna defend Eli to death, because quite frankly he shouldve played better. But to skoff at the fact that injuries significantly effected Eli Manning's performance and had no bearing on the dropoff in production is a falisy.

Not to mention you said yourself in the one of the writeups we did that Amani Toomer's injury impacted Eli Manning and the Giants significantly.

EDIT: Misread some of what you wrote. I thought you were saying that injuries arent a reasonable excuse for Eli's dropoff.

In regards to what you wrote, I think its hard to deny that there were some struggles. But as you pointed out, I think those struggles had more to do with overconfidence and poor decisions. I think that with more games, he'll continue to improve. Ive stated this before and I'll state it again. I feel that all 4 qbs have potential to be quality starters in this league, but all 4 also have some questions heading into this season.

I think the injuries to Eli Manning's team played a significant role in his drop off, and its hard to compare these 2 stat for stat. When we were healthy, Eli Manning had the stats of a top 4 qb in the league. When we got injured, he was arguably a bottom 7 qb in the league. His dropoff was that bad.

Meanwhile there was no significant changes to the Cowboys over the course of the season that would lead to Romo's dropoff in performance. It still dropped off. While it was not nearly as dramatic as Eli's, it still occured with far less variables effecting it. Its hard for me to do a comparison of these 2 stat for stat and not factor in all the circumstances that surround those stats.

Again, I don't want to come off sounding like Im wholeheartily supporting Eli, because his dropoff in performance is also largely his fault. But I also feel that the stats can be a misleading instrument to promote a specific agenda. For both sides, for both qbs.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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DMWsackmachine your such a homer and a romosexual.


Romo struggled down the stretch a great deal. Moreso then eli did (when Eli was throwing to Tim Carter with a garbage O line, and Romo was throwing to Owens and Terry Glenn.

no convincing you now, so just wait until opening day when Eli Torches you and Romo has a 3rd terrible start in a row vs the Geeeee Men
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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DMWsackmachine your such a homer and a romosexual.


Romo struggled down the stretch a great deal. Moreso then eli did (when Eli was throwing to Tim Carter with a garbage O line, and Romo was throwing to Owens and Terry Glenn.

no convincing you now, so just wait until opening day when Eli Torches you and Romo has a 3rd terrible start in a row vs the Geeeee Men
God dammit. I just make a rational post. And you come by and **** it all up for the rest of us.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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God dammit. I just make a rational post. And you come by and **** it all up for the rest of us.
hahahahahaha
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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DMWsackmachine your such a homer and a romosexual.


Romo struggled down the stretch a great deal. Moreso then eli did (when Eli was throwing to Tim Carter with a garbage O line, and Romo was throwing to Owens and Terry Glenn.

no convincing you now, so just wait until opening day when Eli Torches you and Romo has a 3rd terrible start in a row vs the Geeeee Men
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Wait, I just have to ask this one question to DMW.

So the fact that Romo's team barely had any significant injuries to effect his performance where Eli's team had his LT and WR who lead the team in receptions go down has no bearing on this discussion?

How is that fair.

Look at Carson Palmer's #s during the games when Levi Jones went down. Not that great at all. And he's better than both said qbs by a fair margin.

Eli had his LT, and the WR who led the team in catches go down. He was left with a WR who gives up on plays, and a hobbled Shockey to throw to. The 3rd receiver didn't even exist.

On top of that, it was his responsibility to open up the run game with the pass.

Contrarily, the run game opens up Romo. His team stays healthy. He doesnt have to come back from behind nearly as much as Eli.

And this has no bearing on the stats?

Im not gonna defend Eli to death, because quite frankly he shouldve played better. But to skoff at the fact that injuries significantly effected Eli Manning's performance and had no bearing on the dropoff in production is a falisy.

Not to mention you said yourself in the one of the writeups we did that Amani Toomer's injury impacted Eli Manning and the Giants significantly.
I'm not sure if I misspoke, of if you misunderstood me, but my point was that Number10 had mistaken my comparison of Romo's #s for his final 4 games to be against Eli's numbers for his final four games, when in fact they were Eli's numbers for the entire season, and as such you couldn't use the injuries line as a reason for why they were so bad. Now, in reference to his final 4 games, that would be a valid point to take into consideration, though it would certainly not be an end-all arguments point.

Additionally, the fact that the Giant's sacks-allowed numbers actually went down after Petitgout got hurt is not a good sign for those attempting to argue his importance, nor is the fact that he was actually cut after the season, either.

Injuries can always affect a team and players, but the bottom line is that you have to keep playing and produce. They happen. So, did it affect him? Sure. Does it make it alright that he sucked? Well...that depends on your (the fans) willingness to accept failure. But you don't see a lot of slack being cut to Terrell Owens for the injuries that affected his play throughout the season. Or to Tony Romo, by extension (he did have a couple of TD passes and big plays that were dropped by TO). Not to mention the fact that Terry Glenn was playing the final games of the season with a knee issue that--according to some "sources"--was considered to be career threatening for him in the immediate future, which limited his speed and agility towards the end of the season (plus making him miss a game), and a lingering bursa sac issue that hampered Patrick Crayton's productivity as well. Shyt happens.

Anyhow, I'm more than willing to accept that as a factor for Eli's struggles at the end of the year. Still, you have to accept, on the flip side, that anytime you play that badly (like he did) there is a lot more to it than simple outside concerns. Fair?




Edit: And, btw, our running game fell off dramatically towards the end of the season, and Romo was faced with a fourth quarter deficit in every single one of the last four games.

2nd Edit: You can also add Marco Rivera, who was basically in a vegatative state by the end of the year, to the list of players who were playing injured. His play fell of dramatically in the final games of the year, and he had to get back-surgery right after the season.

Last edited by DMWSackMachine : 04-05-2007 at 03:27 PM. Reason: clarification
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