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View Poll Results: Where will Alex Smith be next season
Buffalo 5 4.63%
Cleveland 10 9.26%
Kansas City 47 43.52%
Jacksonville 6 5.56%
Arizona 25 23.15%
NY Jets 10 9.26%
Other: Who 5 4.63%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-27-2013, 05:35 PM    (permalink
princefielder28
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Originally Posted by scottyboy View Post
And the combined super bowl rings from those team over the past decade (or more) is how many?

Oh, that's right, 0.

So the Chiefs can settle with a mediocre QB because it's ok! the rest of the league is doing it!
I'm just stating the facts of the league current, scotty. Taking a QB first overall doesn't guarantee success either. The Manning brothers are the only 1st overall QB's to win Super Bowls since 1990 so it's not like taking a QB, especially a questionable prospect, is a fool-proof plan.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:36 PM    (permalink
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I do actually.

I love your little 4th grade comeback
thaaaank youuuuuuu
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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The only thing I'm even remotely kinda bummed about is the failure of this experiment will come at Viddy's expense.
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R4L does security, and strips on the weekend.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
When we point out Smith's shortcomings, he has a laundry list of reasons why that happened.

When he succeeds, we point out that he needed an insanely talented team around him and a great coaching staff for it to happen.

The same exact thing happened with Matt Cassel. Yet it's not the same circumstance?

See that's my point. If you want to say Smith is a good qb, that's fine. You can justify it with whatever reasons you state. I will disagree, but again, it's an opinion of mine, not a fact.

But you cannot turn around and state all those reasons, but then not use those same reasons to justify Cassel.

BC it's the same exact reasons. Cassel did well when he was under the same circumstances as Smith. When both were under harsh conditions they both sucked.

And neither outperformed the other at their peak to a point to justify that one is clearly superior to the other. I can make arguments to show Cassel at his peak is better than Smith.

So again, if you feel Smith is good, THAT'S FINE. But please show me why he's good and Cassel is bad? Bc your argument for Smith is essentially the same argument for Cassel.

Don't you see how hypocritical you are being? That's the point.
Because Cassel looked like pure trash in his only playoff game, Smith looked fantastic in one and fine in another.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jrdrylie View Post
Smith's 2011 season was nearly identical to Cassel's season so I'm not sure what exactly you are arguing.

Yards: Smith +28
TDs: Cassel +10

I say Cassel has the pretty clear advantage there. You talk about Cassel completing under 60%. Smith only complete 61%. The difference over the entire season? About 14 completions. Pretty negligible. And Cassel had a better rating.
That is exactly what I am arguing.

Quote:
Smith would've gone to a super bowl if he completed a pass to a wide receiver that game. Or was able to move the ball down the field.
His wide receivers that game were Michael Crabtree, before he was even average, Kyle Williams and Brett Swain. They were not open. We have had this argument before, would you rather have had him try and force passes to receivers? It would have resulted in more completions but also a couple of turnovers, which would have given the game away.

Quote:
You know how bad this trade is?

I haven't gotten a legitimate answer to my question of how Alex Smith is any different to Matt Cassel.

Matt Cassel.

If Smith was any good, we'd have 10 pages worth of reasons. Bc Cassel blows balls.

But we don't even have a single legitimate answer yet.

That's how bad this trade is.
You have gotten plenty of legitimate reasons.

1. Smith's best full season is about the same as Cassel's even though Cassel did it by dumping off short passes, 36% of his passes went to backs compared to 16% for Smith, and throwing to a very good receiver, Smith had a mediocre Michael Crabtree.

2. Smith was on his way to significantly improving on that season before being injured. Unless you think Smith was going to massively fall off, which seemed unlikely given his recent play leading up to his injury and the fact that he threw 12 touchdowns and only one interception when he wasn't playing with a broken thumb, it is safe to assume he would have been top five in the NFL in completion percentage, YPA, and passer rating. How many bad QBs have ever done that?

3. Smith was a high draft pick who everyone knew had talent, Cassel was a 7th round pick who no one ever expected to start. Smith started early in his career and showed promise and continuously improved up until he was traded. Cassel rode the bench for three years and then was thrust into one of the best situations you can imagine, even better than the 49ers in 2012.

4. Cassel had two years after his best season to continue improving, or at least stay at that level. He got worse in consecutive seasons. Smith played pretty good in 2011 and was playing great in 2012. He is clearly in his prime, maybe even on the upswing, while Cassel is clearly declining. Cassel's years in bad situations, the last two, were worse than Smith's in similar situations, 2006 and 2009-2010.

As for Harbaugh trying to replace Smith, I don't really see why that matters here. They tried to replace him with Peyton Manning, one of the greatest QBs of all-time, and Colin Kaepernick, who has the talent to one day become an elite QB and is Harbaugh's guy. Do the Chiefs currently have a shot at an all-time great or a very talented prospect that many believe, with the right coaching, can become great? If they do then this is an awful trade.

Guess what, though, it took an injury for Kaepernick to actually beat Smith out and one could easily make the argument that he didn't deserve to keep the job once Smith got healthy. Smith arguable outplayed Kaepernick in the regular season.

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Old 02-27-2013, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by princefielder28 View Post
I'm just stating the facts of the league current, scotty. Taking a QB first overall doesn't guarantee success either. The Manning brothers are the only 1st overall QB's to win Super Bowls since 1990 so it's not like taking a QB, especially a questionable prospect, is a fool-proof plan.
I understand, but going for the guy who could lead your team into the promised land, making that risk, is more likely to actually get you there then settling for the mediocrity, that's the point I'm trying to make. You just listed a bunch of teams in mediocrity because they've got a mediocre QB situation.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:41 PM    (permalink
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I'm just stating the facts of the league current, scotty. Taking a QB first overall doesn't guarantee success either. The Manning brothers are the only 1st overall QB's to win Super Bowls since 1990 so it's not like taking a QB, especially a questionable prospect, is a fool-proof plan.
What? Troy Aikman's last was in 1995 and John Elway won two Super Bowls in 1998 and 1999.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
If his own team and coaching staff essentially just smeared **** on him for the past 2 years, why would anyone else want him? Don't they know what he is better than anyone on the outside?
This, folks. This.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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What? Troy Aikman's last was in 1995 and John Elway won two Super Bowls in 1998 and 1999.
They were drafted before 1990
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by princefielder28 View Post
I'm just stating the facts of the league current, scotty. Taking a QB first overall doesn't guarantee success either. The Manning brothers are the only 1st overall QB's to win Super Bowls since 1990 so it's not like taking a QB, especially a questionable prospect, is a fool-proof plan.
Nothing is fool proof, other then draft John Elway or Andrew Luck. Other then that, there will be some risk. Did Cam Newton have any risk and was he a questionable prospect? And what about it on the flip end, they just did this with Matt Cassell and that failed. But he threw for 63%, 3700 yds, 21/11 and nearly 300 rushing yards, look at Tom Brady and how his career got started! So I'm not really concerned with the passer rating of Alex Smith and where it was at, he is a product of Harbaugh and manages a great team very well.


If you can construct a team as good as the Niners he'll be just fine, but he's not worth two 2nds and I don't know why people think that if a top QB prospect has some questions about him you should just trade a mid round pick for an average QB instead.


edit: guess I should have read the thread before I posted since people have been making most of the same arguments already.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

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Old 02-27-2013, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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I understand, but going for the guy who could lead your team into the promised land, making that risk, is more likely to actually get you there then settling for the mediocrity, that's the point I'm trying to make. You just listed a bunch of teams in mediocrity because they've got a mediocre QB situation.
But why should they take a QB just because he's the best QB in a godawful QB draft?
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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I understand, but going for the guy who could lead your team into the promised land, making that risk, is more likely to actually get you there then settling for the mediocrity, that's the point I'm trying to make. You just listed a bunch of teams in mediocrity because they've got a mediocre QB situation.
Let's stop acting like the Chiefs are passing on a quality, top 10 caliber QB...Reid feels more comfortable rolling the dice with a 2nd round pick on Alex Smith than spending the 1st overall pick on Geno Smith and I'd have to agree with his evaluation
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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Because Cassel looked like pure trash in his only playoff game, Smith looked fantastic in one and fine in another.
And that has absolutely nothing to do with Dwayne Bowe being the only receiver on the Chiefs roster or that they were playing a team that was the worst possible match-up?

Once the Ravens shut down the running game, all they had to do was cover Dwayne Bowe with safety over the top. The Chiefs were able to get by most of the season because the teams they played couldn't cover both Moeaki AND Dwayne Bowe, but the Ravens handled that easily and they had no where else to go with the ball. And that's why they went out and signed Breaston and drafted Baldwin in the proceeding off-season.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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People want to **** on his WRs in SF, but if Bowe walks, his WRs in Kansas City will be:

Jon Baldwin
Devon Wylie
Dexter McCluster

We just gave away our 2nd, so we better hope a talented WR falls to the 3rd, otherwise his WR corps here is going to be worse than anything he has EVER had in SF.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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And that has absolutely nothing to do with Dwayne Bowe being the only receiver on the Chiefs roster or that they were playing a team that was the worst possible match-up?

Once the Ravens shut down the running game, all they had to do was cover Dwayne Bowe with safety over the top. The Chiefs were able to get by most of the season because the teams they played couldn't cover both Moeaki AND Dwayne Bowe, but the Ravens handled that easily and they had no where else to go with the ball. And that's why they went out and signed Breaston and drafted Baldwin in the proceeding off-season.
Smith's receivers in the playoffs weren't much better. Vernon Davis was the only threat they had. Crabtree sucked in 2011, and he played particularly poorly in the playoffs.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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That is exactly what I am arguing.



His wide receivers that game were Michael Crabtree, before he was even average, Kyle Williams and Brett Swain. They were not open. We have had this argument before, would you rather have had him try and force passes to receivers? It would have resulted in more completions but also a couple of turnovers, which would have given the game away.



You have gotten plenty of legitimate reasons.

1. Smith's best full season is about the same as Cassel's even though Cassel did it by dumping off short passes, 36% of his passes went to backs compared to 16% for Smith, and throwing to a very good receiver, Smith had a mediocre Michael Crabtree.

Right. About the same. So basically it's not an upgrade. Thank you.

Oh and now Crabtree is mediocre? Funny. Bc I'm pretty sure you defended him to be more than that in the past.


2. Smith was on his way to significantly improving on that season before being injured. Unless you think Smith was going to massively fall off, which seemed unlikely given his recent play leading up to his injury and the fact that he threw 12 touchdowns and only one interception when he wasn't playing with a broken thumb, it is safe to assume he would have been top five in the NFL in completion percentage, YPA, and passer rating. How many bad QBs have ever done that?

Except for the fact that most quarterbacks have a drop off in production in the 2nd half of the season when the weather gets colder and the run game picks up. You can't point out his good games in that 8 game stretch and not point out his bad games. He was hot garbage vs the Giants. Who's to say that wouldn't happen again? You can't say it. And that's the point. You can't compare 8 games to 16. That's common sense.


3. Smith was a high draft pick who everyone knew had talent, Cassel was a 7th round pick who no one ever expected to start. Smith started early in his career and showed promise and continuously improved up until he was traded. Cassel rode the bench for three years and then was thrust into one of the best situations you can imagine, even better than the 49ers in 2012.

Brady was a 6th round pick. Where you get drafted has absolutely no bearing on this conversation.

4. Cassel had two years after his best season to continue improving, or at least stay at that level. He got worse in consecutive seasons. Smith played pretty good in 2011 and was playing great in 2012. He is clearly in his prime, maybe even on the upswing, while Cassel is clearly declining.

Smith had 3 seasons after Turner to improve and he regressed. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

As for Harbaugh trying to replace Smith, I don't really see why that matters here. They tried to replace him with Peyton Manning, one of the greatest QBs of all-time, and Colin Kaepernick, who has the talent to one day become an elite QB and is Harbaugh's guy. Guess what, though, it took an injury for Kaepernick to actually beat Smith out and one could easily make the argument that he didn't deserve to keep the job once Smith got healthy. Smith arguable outplayed Kaepernick in the regular season.

If he outplayed him he would stil be the qb of your team.
Responses in bold. I don't know why I keep responding. Probably bc I don't want to work today.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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Smith's receivers in the playoffs weren't much better. Vernon Davis was the only threat they had. Crabtree sucked in 2011, and he played particularly poorly in the playoffs.
I'd take what SF had over Baldwin/McCluster/Wylie/Moeaki. Every day of the week.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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People want to **** on his WRs in SF, but if Bowe walks, his WRs in Kansas City will be:

Jon Baldwin
Devon Wylie
Dexter McCluster

We just gave away our 2nd, so we better hope a talented WR falls to the 3rd, otherwise his WR corp here is going to be worse than anything he has EVER had in SF.
arnaz battle
darrell jackson
ashlie lelie
jason hill

lets just say due to the age difference, your WR corp has the potential to be this horrible
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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arnaz battle
darrell jackson
ashlie lelie
jason hill

lets just say due to the age difference, your WR corp has the potential to be this horrible
I actually kinda laughed at this, when I haven't even smiled to anything else since this abortion of a trade was announced, so thank you good sir.

And Pioli (of all people ) said that the compensation hasn't been finalized. How he even knows is beyond me, but it would be glorious if instead of a second round pick this year they got a third. Or fourth.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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Right. About the same. So basically it's not an upgrade. Thank you.

Oh and now Crabtree is mediocre? Funny. Bc I'm pretty sure you defended him to be more than that in the past.
About the same in his best season, worse to a lot worse in others.

And I have never defended Crabtree. I thought he was awful up until this season. Ran lazy routes, dropped tons of passes, and just couldn't get open. Me calling him mediocre before 2012 is being generous.

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Except for the fact that most quarterbacks have a drop off in production in the 2nd half of the season when the weather gets colder and the run game picks up. You can't point out his good games in that 8 game stretch and not point out his bad games. He was hot garbage vs the Giants. Who's to say that wouldn't happen again? You can't say it. And that's the point. You can't compare 8 games to 16. That's common sense.
QBs don't have that large of a dropoff. It would have been very surprising if Smith finished outside of the top five in those categories, and I think even you would agree with that.

Smith played like garbage against the Giants, I don't deny that, but he played great against the Bills, Packers, Lions, and Cardinals and was on his way to doing so against the Rams before getting injured. You clearly want to emphasize Smith's bad and ignore his good.

It is particularly funny because his bad, coincidentally, came when he had a broken finger. Smith throws eight touchdowns, one interception before he breaks his finger. The next two games he throws one touchdown and four interceptions. Ten days rest later he finishes the season with four touchdowns and non interceptions while completing over 90% of his passes. That seems pretty coincidental to me.

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Brady was a 6th round pick. Where you get drafted has absolutely no bearing on this conversation.
And Brady quickly proved himself and continued to improve throughout his career. Cassel didn't. He started pretty decently, got worse, got better, and then got way worse. Where you are drafted is, usually, a pretty good indicator of your potential. Who is to say that Smith wasn't just reaching his potential by the time Harbaugh came around? He had only started for three seasons before that, without much help around him to boot. In 2010 he finished the season on a streak with eight touchdowns to one interception.

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Smith had 3 seasons after Turner to improve and he regressed. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
When the hell did he regress? He was playing better before he hurt himself in 2007 and then he played better in 2009 and 2010 when he came back from injury.

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If he outplayed him he would stil be the qb of your team.
If you completely ignore the fact that Kaepernick has much more upside, was drafted by the current regime, is younger, and isn't already hated by most of the fanbase, sure.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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I'd take what SF had over Baldwin/McCluster/Wylie/Moeaki. Every day of the week.
Oh I agree, and I like Moeaki a lot and I like McCluster a little. I only think the Chiefs will make the playoffs if Bowe stays. If he doesn't I see Smith having a similar season to his 2009 one, maybe a little better, and the Chiefs finishing 8-8.
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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An 8-8 record is so not worth #34 + a condition 3rd/2nd in 2014.
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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An 8-8 record is so not worth #34 + a condition 3rd/2nd in 2014.
Especially when it the denies them the chance of drafting someone that could potentially be a good NFL quarterback.
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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I wonder if the Browns end up going for Geno Smith. I highly doubt it but have seen crazier ****.
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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An 8-8 record is so not worth #34 + a condition 3rd/2nd in 2014.
I agree with you. I don't think, even if the Chiefs keep Bowe, this was a good trade for them. I just don't think it is as god-awful as others do, especially considering the recent Kolb and Palmer trades.
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