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Old 06-06-2013, 08:10 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Originally Posted by Raiderz4Life View Post
AcheTen should get the ban hammer just on the pure premise that he's wasting Cudders time.

<3 Cudders
I always hate to see fools refusing to become educated when Cudders stoops to posting in response to obvious trolls like thumper.
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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I'm going to be upset when Cudders never posts here again because of JBCX.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:33 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080 View Post
I'm going to be upset when Cudders never posts here again because of JBCX.
It's what the general stupidity does to great posters. Remember when Toonster and Pudge both posted while YFS was upping his game? Back when BBD had the time and energy to bring it to? Ah, the good ol days...this must be what CJ feels always...
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:36 PM    (permalink
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Even ElectricEye and BeerBaron are now gone. This place is crippled.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:46 PM    (permalink
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All I got from this thread is that Thumper thinks Cecil Shorts is a better deep threat than Calvin Johnson.
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Football...it's rocket surgery now, folks.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:56 PM    (permalink
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I think BeerBaron said he was going to take a break from football when the Bears fired Lovie and replaced him with Leonard Hofstadter. Hopefully he'll come back when the season starts up.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:35 PM    (permalink
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I miss BB and EE too.
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that's because we're the only animal capable of getting it from other animals. the day a goat can milk cows, it will.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:57 PM    (permalink
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I think BeerBaron said he was going to take a break from football when the Bears fired Lovie and replaced him with Leonard Hofstadter. Hopefully he'll come back when the season starts up.
Is that what happened? He was so distraught with the decisions of the front office he gave up on not just the franchise, but football in general? Damn.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:59 PM    (permalink
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Is that what happened? He was so distraught with the decisions of the front office he gave up on not just the franchise, but football in general? Damn.
That almost happened to me in basketball during Isiah's tenure as Knicks president of basketball operations.
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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Nah he just got busy.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/show...3&#post3272043
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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I'm going to just leave this right here since this perfectly portrays my feelings on the matter....

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Old 06-06-2013, 11:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cudders View Post
I still fail to see how I have a lot to gain from misleading a message board. Itís the internet. Some people are going to agree with me. Some people arenít. Thatís fine. Thatís how it goes. I donít care enough to embellish to prove a point.
Everyone has a personal bias when they are arguing something. You don't think your burning desire to make me look wrong in front of the rest of the forum colors your view of whatever you are charting?

Of course it does.

Quote:
Yes, Howard Mudd, who wasnít even with Philadelphia then, walked into the Eaglesí facilities during preparation and popped in the 2007* Week 4 Eagles vs. Giants tape so he could watch prime Osi manhandle a rookie offensive tackle that isnít even on the roster. Then let that matchup dictate all of his protections.

I know what I saw.
Howard Mudd? The senile old OL coach who didn't know where he was half the time? You think he has final say on the overall game plan?

It's not like Andy Reid, who has been the offensive mastermind at the Eagles for 13 years, wasn't coaching that game. It's not like Andy Reid is intimately involved in everything the offense does. It's not like Andy Reid himself draws up the game-plan and actually calls plays on offense at times. Nah.

GTFO with "Howard Mudd" designing the overall game plan which focused on chipping DEs with TEs to establish the run. All Mudd did with the Eagles was try to (half-assed) teach the zone blocking run scheme to the OL they had, and then on game day stand there looking partly confused and partly angry.

Quote:
Well, hold on. A handful of pages back, FUNBUNCHER brought up Mike Shanahanís respect for JPP in terms of the protections he demands from the Redskins. You dismissed it as banal coach speak. Just meaningless radio drivel. What makes Reidís evaluations more veritable? More worthwhile?
Using Mike Shanahan post-game show comments to completely write off Eagles DEs simply because Shanahan never *mentioned* them is ridiculous. I never wrote off anything a coach said as "banal" or "drivel". Link me to a post where i actually wrote off coach speak itself. I wanted to make clear to FUNBUNCHER that simplly because Shanahan never mentions Graham does not mean that he has final say on Graham's actual threat level or football ability.

Using Reid's comments to understand the game plan of a game that you are charting and putting forth as evidence... is a much more worthwhile and meaningful exercise.

Quote:
Except I didnít chart the entire game. I charted the first half. These numbers are irrelevant in that window. Because, in the first half, the Eagles passed the ball more times than running it. You are attempting to paint a picture for the sample that just isnít accurate.
You are needlessly restricting your sample to an even smaller window. Charting a single game and using it as proof of "double teaming" that Pierre Paul faced is ludicrous in itself, as it is one game. Using a SINGLE HALF of one game to advance a point you are making about PIerre Paul's tendency to be doubled teamed is downright stupid.



Quote:
First, if I watched the game? Youíre going to pull that card?

Second, I didnít chart the entire game. I charted the first half. And, again, in the first half, the Eagles didnít feature the run. The Eagles ran the ball about 40% of the time (including quarterback runs) and threw it about 60% of the time. You can stop grasping at that straw.
You simply can't cut one half of an entire season and use it to definitively say anything about the entire "double teaming" point. Neither I nor anyone else will take you seriously if you try to extrapolate the events of one half of football to an entire season. This is not like me extrapolating 400+ snaps of a player's season to a potential 700-800 snaps if he was a starter. This is you extrapolating 10-15 snaps to an 800+ snap season (what Pierre Paul played last year). This is simply invalid.



Quote:
I never claimed that their protections were applicable to another teamís. Iím aware that teams have different approaches when it comes to scheming and Iím aware thereís a margin of error with that chart. Iíve supplied something of substance though, limited as it might be. Youíve maintained the assertion that Brandon Graham is just as feared as JPP without evidence.
Limited is an understatement. If you were in a court of law this would be completely thrown out and you would be laughed at.

I have said nothing about the "fear" of any player. I am talking purely about production - statistics such as sacks, hits, hurries, tackles, forced fumbles and the like. I cannot speak whatsoever about the "fear" any NFL coach feels about a player, and neither can you.


Quote:

Nor have I ever claimed that the data was representative of their entire seasons. I was clear in defining the data. It was the results of one half of football. Results that featured noticeable protection discrepancies.

And this isnít talent evaluation. Letís get that clear.

This is spreadsheet evaluation. Youíre looking at numbers that a formula spits out without context and trusting its methodologies. I havenít seen an actual evaluation of Brandon Graham. One that revolves around defining Grahamís skill set and highlighting the core traits that make him superior to JPP.
I broke down the physical attributes that make Graham an elite player here in this post:

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/show...5&#post3380395

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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
You don't need anything more than production. The numbers never lie.

But if you do watch games, you tend to notice that he is extremely strong for a smaller guy, and consistently wins the leverage battle. At 6'1" and 270ish lbs, he uses his smaller stature to get up under the pads of OTs. He has one of the best bull-rushes of any DE in the league and can drive OTs back into the lap of the QB with regularlity. When the OT braces for the bull-rush, Graham has enough speed to bend the edge, and he has a solid spin move as well, although not an exceptional one.

His bull rush is definitely his bread and butter. His smaller stature ombined with his brutish strength gives him a huge edge in the leverage battle vs. taller OTs. His speed around the edge is good, and gives him a very strong change-up when the OT begins to expect the bull-rush. The spin move is decent and provides the third major change-up.

Of course, his smaller size is a double-edged sword. While it can help him win leverage battles more easily than a big tall lanky guy like Pierre Paul, if the OT has long arms and engulfs Graham, it can be easier to shut him down if that happens. Also, Graham's smaller size and shorter arms basically prevent him from ever being a force as a pass blocker (pass breakups) in the same mold as Watt or Pierre Paul.

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Yes, Iím so biased that I gave the subject that Iím arguing against the benefit of the doubt...

I liked Brandon Graham quite a bit coming out of college. I gave him a definite first-round grade and thought he went to a good situation in Philadelphia. I donít hate him and Iím not out to get him.

I donít support the Giants. I donít support the Eagles.

Whereís the overwhelming bias?
Your bias lies in the fact that you are trying to prove me wrong and you, like everyone else here, is threatened by a contrary notion or an original thought. My posts are like acid to the lye of conformity that permeates this forum.


Quote:
What I said:



Two parts. First part, what Iíve seen. Thatís cumulative. Iím not basing an opinion on the merits of one half. Iím basing it on a lot more than that.



Supposing that I concede those counter percentages, thatís last season. But what about the season before that? The season where JPP had 16.5 sacks? Even if we double Grahamís snap count last season, and extrapolate his production to the proportionate conclusion, heís still not sniffing the 16.5 sack mark, and thatís pure production, which seems to be all that matters.
Pierre Paul reached that 16.5 sack total through alot of luck, and I will basically guarantee that he will never break the 12 sack barrier ever again. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a complete "one year wonder" and he never even has more than, say, one or two good years ever again.

Alot of those sacks in the 2011 season were mop-up sacks, and he actually was poor in Pass Rush Productivity because he didn't register a lot of total pressures (hits, hurries, AND sacks). Many of his hits and hurries were turned into sacks, which made him look better to the stat sheet.

Looking at total pressure (sacks, hits AND hurries) per snap is the most accurate way of looking at a pass rusher. The problem is that NFL stat sheets don't record anything but sacks all that reliably, so that's all we have to go by unless we do in-depth game charting and viewing like Profootballfocus.
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Old 06-07-2013, 04:16 AM    (permalink
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Everyone has a personal bias when they are arguing something. You don't think your burning desire to make me look wrong in front of the rest of the forum colors your view of whatever you are charting?

Of course it does.
You got me figured out. I have a burning desire to prove that Iím right. I have a burning desire to prove that JPP is the long-lost Greek god of defensive linemen. And I have a burning desire to prove that Brandon Graham isnít because he kills puppies when heís not getting more pressures, hits, and sacks than JPP on a per snap basis.

ÖExcept that I charted that half before I ever made a post on the subject.

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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Howard Mudd? The senile old OL coach who didn't know where he was half the time? You think he has final say on the overall game plan?

It's not like Andy Reid, who has been the offensive mastermind at the Eagles for 13 years, wasn't coaching that game. It's not like Andy Reid is intimately involved in everything the offense does. It's not like Andy Reid himself draws up the game-plan and actually calls plays on offense at times. Nah.

GTFO with "Howard Mudd" designing the overall game plan which focused on chipping DEs with TEs to establish the run. All Mudd did with the Eagles was try to (half-assed) teach the zone blocking run scheme to the OL they had, and then on game day stand there looking partly confused and partly angry.
Thatís not quite how a football office works.

Pre-game preparation requires charting tape and gleaning even the slightest tendencies of the upcoming opponent. Since the head coach involves himself across the board, he delegates a lot of responsibilities. In that vein, itís often a positional coachís job to evaluate the corresponding unit with microscopic focus.

After the game is finished, work on the next opponent begins. You wake up around four on Mon. morning. Make it to the office between 5 and 6 am. From there, the entire coaching staff grinds. Because there isnít a coaching staff in the NFL or major college football that isnít. You spend most of Mon. and Tue. staring at a screen and pouring over tape. You meet with senior assistants, coordinators, and the head coach. But most of the time is dedicated to tape. Most coaches will watch at least 12-to-16 hours of it. The more energetic, hungrier ones will watch even more. The degree of separation is so narrow in the NFL that preparation matters.

Come Tue., the foundation of the game plan is built and expanded. You might pass on periodicals to the center to make sure heís prepared for certain calls and protections as an offensive line coach. Because when the whole team reports to the facilities on Wed. morning for functions and practice, their detailed responsibilities need to be in front of them.

So, no, Reid doesnít set the whole game plan himself. He oversees it, and executes it, sure, but thereís a drastic difference. Iím not familiar with the inner workings of the ex-Eagles football office, but if it wasnít Mudd, it was a junior assistant or an OQC or both. Because, as head coach, Reid has far too much on his plate to watch 24-36 hours of tape on defensive line alignments and a front's blitz packages alone. He canít sit there, sift through the database, and watch all of a front sevenís snaps in the red zone within certain down & distance, score, time remaining parameters, etc.

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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Using Mike Shanahan post-game show comments to completely write off Eagles DEs simply because Shanahan never *mentioned* them is ridiculous. I never wrote off anything a coach said as "banal" or "drivel". Link me to a post where i actually wrote off coach speak itself. I wanted to make clear to FUNBUNCHER that simplly because Shanahan never mentions Graham does not mean that he has final say on Graham's actual threat level or football ability.

Using Reid's comments to understand the game plan of a game that you are charting and putting forth as evidence... is a much more worthwhile and meaningful exercise.
All right.

Then, using that same logic, I can conclude that just because Reid doesnít mention JPP doesnít mean that he doesnít scheme against him, too.

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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
You are needlessly restricting your sample to an even smaller window. Charting a single game and using it as proof of "double teaming" that Pierre Paul faced is ludicrous in itself, as it is one game. Using a SINGLE HALF of one game to advance a point you are making about PIerre Paul's tendency to be doubled teamed is downright stupid.
Yet, Iíve still offered more evidence to support JPP facing more attention than Graham. Something is better than nothing.

And, again, Iím not using a single half to make the case. Youíre right. That would be downright stupid. If that was what I was doing. But itís not. Iím using what Iíve seen over their careers, what Iíve seen over the past season, *and* what Iíve charted in the first half of the Giants vs. Eagles game. Iím not using it as a stand-alone case.

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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
You simply can't cut one half of an entire season and use it to definitively say anything about the entire "double teaming" point. Neither I nor anyone else will take you seriously if you try to extrapolate the events of one half of football to an entire season. This is not like me extrapolating 400+ snaps of a player's season to a potential 700-800 snaps if he was a starter. This is you extrapolating 10-15 snaps to an 800+ snap season (what Pierre Paul played last year). This is simply invalid.
Yes. And all Iíve done is state and restate that Iím not extrapolating the events of one half of football to an entire season. Right in the follow-up post, I make it clear that I wouldnít advise doing that. Because it is just one half of football. But, once I finished charting it, I figured that I might as well throw the results out there, and there were noticeable discrepancies. Thatís all I said. It was a *piece* of tangible evidence in a back-and-forth discussion that was going nowhere.

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Limited is an understatement. If you were in a court of law this would be completely thrown out and you would be laughed at.
And? Your argument would be what in a court of law?

Your argument started with the premise that JPP didnít face different protections than Brandon Graham, so we could just complete the simple calculation of extrapolating Grahamís production to full-time snaps and conclude heís a much better pass rusher. But it offered nothing to address or support that fact. You just dismissed it as nebulous and unsubstantiated and moved on.

I showed a small sample size (and admitted its limitations) that contradicted that statement.

You continued to resort to the problematic sample size rather than the defense of the initial point that Graham faces the same protections as JPP.

If I charted more games, Iím quite confident that Graham wouldnít meet the same protections of JPP. But Iím not going to do that because itís fruitless and time-consuming. You would complain about sample sizes until I did the whole season and then deem me not credible once the results didnít favor Graham. Itís circular and pointless.

That argument is a receding pocket of ignorance.

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Your bias lies in the fact that you are trying to prove me wrong and you, like everyone else here, is threatened by a contrary notion or an original thought. My posts are like acid to the lye of conformity that permeates this forum.
Original thoughts donít scare me. Especially when it comes to football. Because Iím sure Iíve got some views on the game that wouldnít be popular, too. In fact, when I first set out to chart it, I wondered if I was missing something based on your insistence.
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Old 06-07-2013, 04:39 AM    (permalink
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You don't need anything more than production. The numbers never lie.

But if you do watch games, you tend to notice that he is extremely strong for a smaller guy, and consistently wins the leverage battle. At 6'1" and 270ish lbs, he uses his smaller stature to get up under the pads of OTs. He has one of the best bull-rushes of any DE in the league and can drive OTs back into the lap of the QB with regularlity. When the OT braces for the bull-rush, Graham has enough speed to bend the edge, and he has a solid spin move as well, although not an exceptional one.

His bull rush is definitely his bread and butter. His smaller stature ombined with his brutish strength gives him a huge edge in the leverage battle vs. taller OTs. His speed around the edge is good, and gives him a very strong change-up when the OT begins to expect the bull-rush. The spin move is decent and provides the third major change-up.

Of course, his smaller size is a double-edged sword. While it can help him win leverage battles more easily than a big tall lanky guy like Pierre Paul, if the OT has long arms and engulfs Graham, it can be easier to shut him down if that happens. Also, Graham's smaller size and shorter arms basically prevent him from ever being a force as a pass blocker (pass breakups) in the same mold as Watt or Pierre Paul.
Thumper, you specifically stated you broke down the physical attributes which make Graham an elite player (see above)

However, do you not realise that physical attributes do not make any one player elite? Take Jamarcus Russell as a perfect case. He has elite physical attributes and is out of the league.

Secondly, the physical attributes you listed above do make Graham physically elite in NFL terms.

He doesn't have the length or arm length to be considered elite. Sure smaller DEs like Dumervil, Freeney etc have had very good careers with below average size, however nobody is calling them elite physical specimens in NFL terms.

Also, you mentioned he has a very good bull rush, good speed and a so-so spin move. I am going to ask you to do one thing. Watch any top DE in the league and tell me they win by simply overpowering OTs, running around them or spinning by them. That doesn't happen. You need more than spped and/or strength to be successful.

Pass rush repertoire is about as important a trait for any pass rusher. Can he bend off the edge? Does he be physical and knock the OTs hands down so he can't be engaged. Does he set the OT up with bull rush, bull rush, bull rush, bull rush, then speed off the edge? Does he run a tight arc or does he run himself out of the play? Does he have a swim move? Does he rip? Does he utilise a stutter step? Can he attack the inside shoulder of the OT when he sets up to far in his kickslide?

Pass rushing is more than having speed or strength. If you do one thing predominantly it won't work.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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Thumper, you specifically stated you broke down the physical attributes which make Graham an elite player (see above)

However, do you not realise that physical attributes do not make any one player elite? Take Jamarcus Russell as a perfect case. He has elite physical attributes and is out of the league.

Secondly, the physical attributes you listed above do make Graham physically elite in NFL terms.

He doesn't have the length or arm length to be considered elite. Sure smaller DEs like Dumervil, Freeney etc have had very good careers with below average size, however nobody is calling them elite physical specimens in NFL terms.

Also, you mentioned he has a very good bull rush, good speed and a so-so spin move. I am going to ask you to do one thing. Watch any top DE in the league and tell me they win by simply overpowering OTs, running around them or spinning by them. That doesn't happen. You need more than spped and/or strength to be successful.

Pass rush repertoire is about as important a trait for any pass rusher. Can he bend off the edge? Does he be physical and knock the OTs hands down so he can't be engaged. Does he set the OT up with bull rush, bull rush, bull rush, bull rush, then speed off the edge? Does he run a tight arc or does he run himself out of the play? Does he have a swim move? Does he rip? Does he utilise a stutter step? Can he attack the inside shoulder of the OT when he sets up to far in his kickslide?

Pass rushing is more than having speed or strength. If you do one thing predominantly it won't work.


Exactly Size, speed and strength are NICE but there is more to being a pass rusher than being the biggest fast guy out there... look at Vernon Gholston and on the oposite side of the spectrum look at Elvis Dumervil.

It is about technique, motor and tenacity. You have to work for towards it, you have to go hard tell the whistle blows to get sacks.

if it was just about numbers than teams would draft workout warriors every year.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:52 AM    (permalink
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Pierre Paul reached that 16.5 sack total through alot of luck, and I will basically guarantee that he will never break the 12 sack barrier ever again. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a complete "one year wonder" and he never even has more than, say, one or two good years ever again.
I hope you get banned for the 5th time after this never happens.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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I hope you get banned for the 5th time after this never happens.
I am curious what new name he comes up with then, like he did after JPP already proved him a fool once before and the giants managed to win a playoff game or four.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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I am curious what new name he comes up with then, like he did after JPP already proved him a fool once before and the giants managed to win a playoff game or four.
same. he vanished for a while after kevin kolb turned out to be exactly what everyone thought he was (sig).
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Thumper, you specifically stated you broke down the physical attributes which make Graham an elite player (see above)

However, do you not realise that physical attributes do not make any one player elite? Take Jamarcus Russell as a perfect case. He has elite physical attributes and is out of the league.

Secondly, the physical attributes you listed above do make Graham physically elite in NFL terms.

He doesn't have the length or arm length to be considered elite. Sure smaller DEs like Dumervil, Freeney etc have had very good careers with below average size, however nobody is calling them elite physical specimens in NFL terms.

Also, you mentioned he has a very good bull rush, good speed and a so-so spin move. I am going to ask you to do one thing. Watch any top DE in the league and tell me they win by simply overpowering OTs, running around them or spinning by them. That doesn't happen. You need more than spped and/or strength to be successful.

Pass rush repertoire is about as important a trait for any pass rusher. Can he bend off the edge? Does he be physical and knock the OTs hands down so he can't be engaged. Does he set the OT up with bull rush, bull rush, bull rush, bull rush, then speed off the edge? Does he run a tight arc or does he run himself out of the play? Does he have a swim move? Does he rip? Does he utilise a stutter step? Can he attack the inside shoulder of the OT when he sets up to far in his kickslide?

Pass rushing is more than having speed or strength. If you do one thing predominantly it won't work.
Except that Graham has actually shown elite level production on a per snap basis.

He finished the season with the highest Pass Rush Producitity rating of ANY defensive player. And while he was a part-time player for much of the season, it's not like it was a small sample size of some guy coming in for a few 3rd downs.

He basically played a little more than half the snaps (400+) of the players who played the most (800+). So, you can definitely draw conclusions from that about his talent level.

I was merely illustrating his physical traits because someone asked me to do so in addition to using stats to back up my argument.

And regarding your points about pass rush moves - the best pass rushers in the history of the NFL had one "go to" tactic, like bull-rush, or edge rush, or swim move, and then worked off that. That's exactly what Graham does. He has an elite bull rush and does other stuff off of that. That's no different from what guys in the past like Strahan or White did.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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Hey thumper, will you disappear right when the season starts, or will you wait a few games for JPP to make you look silly again?
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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I also like how he promised if the giants won a single playoff game two years ago he would leave here forever and never post again. That's the kind of little **** this kid is, where less then like four months later he was already back after ANOTHER stupid argument he made blew up in his face and he just never acknowledged it. Get a life.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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Even ElectricEye and BeerBaron are now gone. This place is crippled.
Yeah, I rarely venture outside of the off topic forum for anything other than the team threads. The draft forum is brutal and this is even worse.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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I used to care about making good posts. But after awhile you realize it's pointless and you stop.

Cudders will eventually either stop posting here or fall into the same situation. You can't do it forever, it's taxing on the brain. Especially when guys like Thumper exist.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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You got me figured out. I have a burning desire to prove that Iím right. I have a burning desire to prove that JPP is the long-lost Greek god of defensive linemen. And I have a burning desire to prove that Brandon Graham isnít because he kills puppies when heís not getting more pressures, hits, and sacks than JPP on a per snap basis.
Keep disregarding the concept of inherent bias (in this case, as a game charter looking for evidence to prove my claims wrong) by making claims to the polar opposite. Hyperbole will dig you out of that hole.

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ÖExcept that I charted that half before I ever made a post on the subject.
Am I supposed to believe that you weren't aware of this argument at the time you said that you went back and charted this?

Your original post in this thread (http://draftcountdown.com/forum/show...#post3380678):

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Originally Posted by Cudders View Post
You made me curious.

So, I decided to pull up a spreadsheet and chart some protections from the 2012 Week 4 tape of the Giants v. Eagles. Picked that game for a few reasons. Could watch both without jumping around, meaningful division game, close score window, coaching staffs that are quite familiar with opponent personnel and their threats posed, no documented injuries, marginal difference on the stat sheet, etc. Did the first half. The results speak for themselves:

...
Those sound like the words of a man who was perturbed by my posts in this thread and wanted to find some "evidence" of my supposed incorrectness.

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Thatís not quite how a football office works.

Pre-game preparation requires charting tape and gleaning even the slightest tendencies of the upcoming opponent. Since the head coach involves himself across the board, he delegates a lot of responsibilities. In that vein, itís often a positional coachís job to evaluate the corresponding unit with microscopic focus.

After the game is finished, work on the next opponent begins. You wake up around four on Mon. morning. Make it to the office between 5 and 6 am. From there, the entire coaching staff grinds. Because there isnít a coaching staff in the NFL or major college football that isnít. You spend most of Mon. and Tue. staring at a screen and pouring over tape. You meet with senior assistants, coordinators, and the head coach. But most of the time is dedicated to tape. Most coaches will watch at least 12-to-16 hours of it. The more energetic, hungrier ones will watch even more. The degree of separation is so narrow in the NFL that preparation matters.

Come Tue., the foundation of the game plan is built and expanded. You might pass on periodicals to the center to make sure heís prepared for certain calls and protections as an offensive line coach. Because when the whole team reports to the facilities on Wed. morning for functions and practice, their detailed responsibilities need to be in front of them.

So, no, Reid doesnít set the whole game plan himself. He oversees it, and executes it, sure, but thereís a drastic difference. Iím not familiar with the inner workings of the ex-Eagles football office, but if it wasnít Mudd, it was a junior assistant or an OQC or both. Because, as head coach, Reid has far too much on his plate to watch 24-36 hours of tape on defensive line alignments and a front's blitz packages alone. He canít sit there, sift through the database, and watch all of a front sevenís snaps in the red zone within certain down & distance, score, time remaining parameters, etc.
Reid as the head coach has the knowledge of the division and the history of his matchups with those division rivals. He imparts the knowledge to his assistants if any of them are involved with the game plan.

As an offensive guru, Reid is also in charge of the overall offensive game plan. He delegates the defensive game-plan entirely to his defensive coordinator, which he has been doing for his entire career.

However, on offense, Reid is intimately involved. He has said as much in interviews, and reporters with knowledge of the Eagles have written as much in profiles.

Reid is clearly aware of all of the tendencies and problems of the Giants match-up, and imparts those key points to all of his coordinators and assistants. His offensive coordinator might receive a decree regarding "playing the run" more heavily and chipping with TEs, and Reid will oversee the installment of that plan. In the end, Reid will most definitely review and approve whatever plan is collectively agreed upon.

And in many instances, Reid himself spent a good portion of the week designing a game plan with Morningwheg, his OC, jointly. Again, this has been documented in interviews and reporter articles.

Mudd most certainly is not involved with the formulation of the game plan, and if he is, it is only tangentially. Mudd is solely the OL coach and teaches a specific technique. The actual game-plan regarding formations and plays and alignments are the product of the Reid-Morningwheg joint venture.

There's no need for Reid to watch 24-36 hours of tape on the Giants defensive line every single time, because as a divisional foe, Reid is highly aware of the strengths and weaknesses of that team. He clearly has a general idea of the 4 DE package, and the specific matchup problems posed by Tuck and Umenyiora. He's been playing them for years. Your point about watching tape to account for this is a ludicrous claim because, again, after having played them this many times, he is already aware of these issues.



Quote:
All right.

Then, using that same logic, I can conclude that just because Reid doesnít mention JPP doesnít mean that he doesnít scheme against him, too.
Except that Reid has been scheming against the Giants in the same way (paying extra attention to the DEs) since about 2007. Even before Pierre Paul was drafted, when Reid feared the tandem of Umenyiora and Tuck, he installed game plans specifically to aid his OTs with chip blocks from the RB and TEs, and ran the ball more heavily than he otherwise would.

So it's not a specific player in this case that was being schemed against, but an entire defensive line.


Quote:
Yet, Iíve still offered more evidence to support JPP facing more attention than Graham. Something is better than nothing.
Not in this case. Your small sample size is invalid because it could be completely skewed. We are actually better off leaving this as a neutral point because we simply don't have evidence to either support your stance or support my stance.

IF we admit such a tiny sample size and draw any kind of conclusions from it whatsoever, we run the risk of adhering to a completely skewed data model. We are literally better off by ignoring this data until a much larger, clearer picture of game charting data emerges that studies both players.

As is, you have to come at me with a data model that is more easily culled and verified, or you have to go and chart every game (or at least 6+, I'd say) that both players played in 2012.

Right now I have the data advantage beacuse my argument is based on easily obtainable snap counts, sack totals, tackle totals, and profootballfocus numbers.


Quote:
And, again, Iím not using a single half to make the case. Youíre right. That would be downright stupid. If that was what I was doing. But itís not. Iím using what Iíve seen over their careers, what Iíve seen over the past season, *and* what Iíve charted in the first half of the Giants vs. Eagles game. Iím not using it as a stand-alone case.

See, you don't have the data for this.

By saying "what I've seen over their careers", you're basically just going by hearsay.

The eye is an astoundingly inaccurate and unreliable source of evidence. Two witnesses who saw the same crime will often "recall" two different-looking suspects if you question them about it.

I can't entertain an argument that sounds like "well, I definitely remember seeing this, so you have to believe me!"

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Yes. And all Iíve done is state and restate that Iím not extrapolating the events of one half of football to an entire season. Right in the follow-up post, I make it clear that I wouldnít advise doing that. Because it is just one half of football. But, once I finished charting it, I figured that I might as well throw the results out there, and there were noticeable discrepancies. Thatís all I said. It was a *piece* of tangible evidence in a back-and-forth discussion that was going nowhere.
Throwing the results out there as a "piece" of evidence is actually more harmful (if we are looking for veracity and clarity in this argument) than if you had done nothing at all.

Bad evidence can present a more skewed portrait of the situation than no evidence at all.

Come back with a larger sample size, and a more accurate portrayal of these two players, and then we can start drawing hard conclusions about the "double team" effect facing both players.


Quote:
And? Your argument would be what in a court of law?

Your argument started with the premise that JPP didnít face different protections than Brandon Graham, so we could just complete the simple calculation of extrapolating Grahamís production to full-time snaps and conclude heís a much better pass rusher. But it offered nothing to address or support that fact. You just dismissed it as nebulous and unsubstantiated and moved on.

I showed a small sample size (and admitted its limitations) that contradicted that statement.

You continued to resort to the problematic sample size rather than the defense of the initial point that Graham faces the same protections as JPP.

If I charted more games, Iím quite confident that Graham wouldnít meet the same protections of JPP. But Iím not going to do that because itís fruitless and time-consuming. You would complain about sample sizes until I did the whole season and then deem me not credible once the results didnít favor Graham. Itís circular and pointless.

That argument is a receding pocket of ignorance.
Because, see, you can't just bust into a thread with HALF A GAME'S worth of data, and then being to declare yourself the victor in an argument.

This goes so far beyond what Andy Reid and his staff deemed necessary in Quarters 1 & 2 of a late September game against the well-known rival Giants.

To introduce something so small and circumstantial and then to promote it as the centerpiece of some supposed counter-punch intended to perforate my entire argument... is laughable.

It's a slap in the face of rational discourse and sound debate everywhere. You're embarrassing yourself and anyone else who wishes to use data and logic to better understand the game of football and its players.




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Original thoughts donít scare me. Especially when it comes to football. Because Iím sure Iíve got some views on the game that wouldnít be popular, too. In fact, when I first set out to chart it, I wondered if I was missing something based on your insistence.
Maybe if you took the time to chart more games, the picture would be clearer. Because you certainly didn't appreciate the originality of the argument enough to respect it with anything but a token effort to provide contrary data.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I used to care about making good posts. But after awhile you realize it's pointless and you stop.

Cudders will eventually either stop posting here or fall into the same situation. You can't do it forever, it's taxing on the brain. Especially when guys like Thumper exist.
Key words highlighted.

This is the guy who shouted "Na na na na I can't hear you!" the entire time he was talking on here about Graham and Pierre Paul.

And then he decided just to give up and start making up fake quotes in his sig.
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