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Old 04-14-2013, 11:50 PM    (permalink
K Train
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Originally Posted by pierce2walker View Post
Not a Jarvis Jones or Patterson believer myself. I was pretty down on Damontre Moore back when he was being looked at as a top 10 guy, but that doesn't seem to be the case any longer.
Jones and Patterson are my favorite players to be at 17 lol
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:50 PM    (permalink
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You guys missed the joke. :(
I know, I set it up well too. Rats
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:56 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Jordan is an edge rusher who wins with quickness, he is a very fluid athlete who can dip his shoulder around pass blockers and maintaining top speed as he turns the corner. Defending the run is his weakness, but if he plays OLB in a 3-4 that will not be that great of a problem, because he can use his quickness to beat the blocker.
His injury hasn't allowed him to weight lift this past season which limited his weight gain and strength, but as it heals, he will be quite capable of adding 20lbs. and the strength gain should also allow him to handle the bull rush far better.
IMO, he has zero bust potential.
Except for the part where he doesnt rush the passer well at all. If he doesn't beat the guy with a speed rush to the outside he's finished, and hes soft against the run.

Good in coverage, I'll give him that. But there is a reason he dropped far more than he rushed at Oregon....its because he's not very good at it.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:35 AM    (permalink
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A player like Tavon Austin cannot be found later in the draft. That's insane.

Austin is the best slot receiver prospect since slots have become a thing. That's where he'll play in the pros...

I don't see him as a bust candidate for any reason other than someone projecting he won't stay healthy which I think is unwise for 2 reasons:

A) Has been a durable player throughout his career (0 missed practices at WVU in 4 years with a million touches).

B) He's extremely difficult to get a clean shot on. He's slippery and creative with his moves. Someone was criticizing him saying he never got hurt because "he was never touched." Yeah. That's his game - lol. And he gets out of bounds and down when nothing's there. He's smart.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:51 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SickwithIt1010 View Post
Except for the part where he doesnt rush the passer well at all. If he doesn't beat the guy with a speed rush to the outside he's finished, and hes soft against the run.

Good in coverage, I'll give him that. But there is a reason he dropped far more than he rushed at Oregon....its because he's not very good at it.
Couldn't have said it better myself. To say Jordan has zero bust potential is laughable
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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Dion Jordan will never turn into the type of player people expect him to be (10+ sack pass rusher). What he will turn into is what he is, a freak athlete who can cover the pass and set the edge in the run game, extremely similar to Manny Lawson in that regard. If you are expecting him to line up 75% of the time with his hand in the dirt and pin his ears back he will appear to be a bust to you, because he simply isn't that type of guy and never has been.


My pick here is Luke Joeckel, I think he is extremely overrated and will eventually be success only on the right side. He lacks the top end physical tools to have longevity on the Left, and has a maxed out frame. I see him turning into an above average NFL player, but for where he is going to be selected that will be considered a "bust" by the conventional NFL draftnik definition.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:29 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by energizerbunny View Post
Dion Jordan will never turn into the type of player people expect him to be (10+ sack pass rusher). What he will turn into is what he is, a freak athlete who can cover the pass and set the edge in the run game, extremely similar to Manny Lawson in that regard. If you are expecting him to line up 75% of the time with his hand in the dirt and pin his ears back he will appear to be a bust to you, because he simply isn't that type of guy and never has
That's been my point for some time. You don't draft a guy in the top 5 to be a versatile, coverage edge setting linebacker, they're just not valued that high. His place is 20-32. Someone will take him top 5-10 because they think he has the potential to be a double digit sack guy, and to that I say bust.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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That's been my point for some time. You don't draft a guy in the top 5 to be a versatile, coverage edge setting linebacker, they're just not valued that high. His place is 20-32. Someone will take him top 5-10 because they think he has the potential to be a double digit sack guy, and to that I say bust.
Exactly, the type of player that people expect Dion Jordan to be, is exactly the type of player Mingo will be if he reaches his potential.

For one reason or another Mingo doesn't get the same praise, but possesses almost identical risk.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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Mingo is the guy I've been afraid of the Titans taking at 10 the most, so I'll go with him.

As for people saying Patterson won't be good because he has stone hands, many good NFL WR's haven't had really good hands. I'm guessing to find a major flaw in his game, this has been the point exaggerated? Anyway, I didn't see it. Now Justin Hunter on the other hand...
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Old 04-15-2013, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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Patterson hands are not as bad as some of you are saying, he did have a 4% drop percentage.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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Exactly, the type of player that people expect Dion Jordan to be, is exactly the type of player Mingo will be if he reaches his potential.

For one reason or another Mingo doesn't get the same praise, but possesses almost identical risk.
Because he was lazy this past season and took plays off, reminds of me of Coples' drop last year. Entered the season as a consensus top 5 prospect, and they probably didn't play hard because they figured they were getting drafted high regardless, or maybe not playing hard to avoid injuries.

Whatever the case may be, I think Mingo and Ansah have double-digit sack potential, and for that reason they're much more worthy of top 10 consideration than Jordan is.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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Because he was lazy this past season and took plays off, reminds of me of Coples' drop last year. Entered the season as a consensus top 5 prospect, and they probably didn't play hard because they figured they were getting drafted high regardless, or maybe not playing hard to avoid injuries.

Whatever the case may be, I think Mingo and Ansah have double-digit sack potential, and for that reason they're much more worthy of top 10 consideration than Jordan is.
Don't get me wrong, there is a place in the nfl for Jordan's skill set. I just don't think people realize what his skill set is, and want to see him as something else.


It is extremely rare to see a guy at 250 Lbs turn and run with a slot REC on a seam route. He is unbelievable in pursuit, and can really set the edge. He is absolutely perfect as a 4-3 SLB or 3-4 OLB, however if you expect double digit sack totals in his future you will be disappointed.

Worse case I think he is Manny Lawson, best case he puts on 20 LBs, develops some pass rush moves and turns into one of the freakish players in the league. I.E, somewhere between Willie McGiniest & Lawrence Taylor.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Don't get me wrong, there is a place in the nfl for Jordan's skill set. I just don't think people realize what his skill set is, and want to see him as something else.


It is extremely rare to see a guy at 250 Lbs turn and run with a slot REC on a seam route. He is unbelievable in pursuit, and can really set the edge. He is absolutely perfect as a 4-3 SLB or 3-4 OLB, however if you expect double digit sack totals in his future you will be disappointed.

Worse case I think he is Manny Lawson, best case he puts on 20 LBs, develops some pass rush moves and turns into one of the freakish players in the league. I.E, somewhere between Willie McGiniest & Lawrence Taylor.
+1.

I think people are missing the effort and high motor Dion Jordan plays the game. His 'want to' is greater than Manny Lawson so I really don't like that comparison. I've come around on Jordan watching how he pursues the football, seeing how quick his is and not just his straight line speed.
There's realistic potential that Jordan develops into a better than 'just good' football player in the pros.
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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+1.

I think people are missing the effort and high motor Dion Jordan plays the game. His 'want to' is greater than Manny Lawson so I really don't like that comparison. I've come around on Jordan watching how he pursues the football, seeing how quick his is and not just his straight line speed.
There's realistic potential that Jordan develops into a better than 'just good' football player in the pros.
Bingo, that's the reason he is a top 10 pick IMO, its his ability to do things that literally no one else in the NFL can do right now.
I' am willing to bet he could even cover the Gronks,Grahams, and Witten's of the NFL. He has the potential to be the ultimate chess piece on the defensive side of the ball.

I think that's why the Chiefs are considering him at #1, he isn't the same player as Houston or Hali, both those guys can line up at 3 tech in certain situations . If you want to run a combo 40/30 front that includes 2 gap/1 gap principles (i.e, Patriots) Jordan is the perfect guy, because he has such a diverse skill set. You could count the guys on 1 hand that are as athletic as he is that have entered the league in the past 10 years. I love the way he can flip his hips, almost DB like.

I don't think he even needs to ever be a 10+ sack guy in order to warrant a top 5 selection to tell you the truth.
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Old 04-15-2013, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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I think Margus Hunt will barely play in the NFL. He was terrible in the Senior Bowl and then blew up the Combine... he's an all star in shorts, complete garbage in pads. At 26 by the time he starts figuring out how to put all of his potential to use, he'll either be out of the league or start getting long in the teeth.
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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Dion Jordan has few moves and is waaaay too easy to block. And now I'm seeing people on here saying things like "He's a better Manny Lawson" and that "he doens't need to get 10+ sacks a year to justify being picked in the top 5."

That's insane. I really don't understand it at all. He's sure as hell not a run defender. Aaron Curry got drafted because people looked at his measurables and thought, "Oh, he can totally cover wide receivers, too," except that he was just ok at that, and not good at anything else. Dion Jordon's got some impressive triangle numbers, but you put on his tape and you see him getting blocked out of running plays by wide receivers. He has a couple nice plays a game where he gets off the ball well, bends around the edge and does a decent JPP impression with his long arms, and then he looks like fast, smooth, gangly garbage for the rest of the game. He's just not that good, and it'd be just like Jacksonville to take him second overall.

P.S. Manny Lawson was a better prospect.

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Old 04-15-2013, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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Dion Jordan has few moves and is waaaay too easy to block. And now I'm seeing people on here saying things like "He's a better Manny Lawson" and that "he doens't need to get 10+ sacks a year to justify being picked in the top 5."

That's insane. I really don't understand it at all. He's sure as hell not a run defender. Aaron Curry got drafted because people looked at his measurables and thought, "Oh, he can totally cover wide receivers, too," except that he was just ok at that, and not good at anything else. Dion Jordon's got some impressive triangle numbers, but you put on his tape and you see him getting blocked out of running plays by wide receivers. He has a couple nice plays a game where he gets off the ball well, bends around the edge and does a decent JPP impression with his long arms, and then he looks like fast, smooth, gangly garbage for the rest of the game. He's just not that good, and it'd be just like Jacksonville to take him second overall.

P.S. Manny Lawson was a better prospect.
Manny had better combine numbers, and was a better pass rusher coming out of college. What Dion has done in college is what Manny has done in the NFL. The niners quickly found out he was good at everything BUT pass rushing.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:23 PM    (permalink
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This thread is the embodiment of hyperbole.
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SickwithIt1010 View Post
Manny had better combine numbers, and was a better pass rusher coming out of college. What Dion has done in college is what Manny has done in the NFL. The niners quickly found out he was good at everything BUT pass rushing.
Exactly. I'm just more confused than ever when Dion's supporters start saying he doesn't need to be an elite pass rusher. Just wtf's my brain. Yes, that's exactly what he's supposed to be in the NFL. If you're not looking at him as a pass rushing project, I really don't know what you're valuing in his play, because it's sure not his overall game.
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:28 PM    (permalink
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This thread is the embodiment of hyperbole.
ah, I see you like Dion Jordan.

EDIT: seriously, though - I think the fact that there aren't superstar college players headlining this draft class is making people look more at the workout numbers than usual, and that's why Dion is being talked about as a top-5 pick instead of someone who should go in the second or third round as a project.

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Old 04-15-2013, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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The reason I turned in favor of Dion Jordan is that the 20# he's gained since the end of the season hasn't hurt his athleticism. It's acknowledged that Jordan probably played for the Ducks at less than 230# for most of his college career, but he's bigger and stronger now.

At this moment I think Dion Jordan is a better pro prospect than he was at Oregon in October.

Is he a project?? Technically. He doesn't have the game film to justify his draft grade. But his tools are top 10. I just see Jordan developing a game in the pros we never saw at Oregon.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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3 pages in and no mention of ogletree? Maybe its just a no brainer.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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I think he has the potential to turn into the ultimate defensive chess piece to tell you the truth.

He can be utilized to set the edge (I don't care what you say, he is long and gets his hands in the right place, he routinely pushes play back inside). He is better at setting the edge than a lot of guys, and his leverage is good enough that he doesn't get moved too much.

He can turn and run with WRs in the seams, he can look up WRs in coverage (watch how many times on film he manually passes WRs from his zone to the next, its rare that these elite edge guys even have a cover clue in college.... and he is always,always running to the football. Go watch a game and see how many times he finishes in the frame. He possesses the ability for the defense to show multiple looks.

Does he have a full bag of pass rush moves yet? absolutely not, not even close. At this point he's usually speed rushing or getting blocked. The potential, want to and finishing ability is there, he just needs to work on his hands more. That will come however, he just recently turned into a full-time defensive player. If he comes as far as he did from 11-12' I have no doubt he will improve this area.


One of the most impressive things I find with him is his ability to flip his hips, almost DB like.

Is a coverage guy that can cover 6'6 260 TE's that run 4.60s worth a top 10 selection? IMO it is, because up to this point no one in the league has found guys like this.

Essentially, he is the same athlete as the biggest TE freaks, except on the other side of the ball.... It might take him a while to learn how to rush the pass, but if it happens we might be talking about a future defensive player of the year.

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Old 04-16-2013, 12:18 AM    (permalink
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Alec Ogletree
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Old 04-16-2013, 01:07 AM    (permalink
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QB'S Nassib, Wilson, Glennon, Bray will all be busts.. They are not accurate enough for the NFL Nasssib Wilson and Glennon only averaged 60% completion for their starting Carreer Bray only averaged 58.5 with the two top WR's in college football Bray and Wilson on loosing teams... QB's do worse or the same in the NFL not Magically better.. Geno Manual 66% completion Barkley Jones 63%.. Gabbert Tannehill Weedon Locker Freeman all under 60% and are all struggling..
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