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Old 04-28-2013, 10:37 AM    (permalink
VAfy-ya
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Originally Posted by BigBanger View Post

Ted Thompson

Ozzie Newsome is commonly known for his drafting, and considered the best GM in the NFL. Newsome is certainly in the discussion, but Thompson is his equal. Thompson completely revamped their atrocious defense with youth last year (and may have found a future star in Casey Hayward). It was a terrific draft that got a lot of production from the rookie class. This year, sitting at 26, they address the defensive line with the best 34 front seven prospect in this draft. I consider Datone Jones a Top 10 player. I am in no way comparing him to JJ Watt, but if Watt has shown us anything it's that elite speed and quickness from the inside combined with strength and power can makeup for an absolute terror in the 34 defense (that allowed its ends to get up the field). That's exactly the type of player Jones is. He's solid in a 43 front, but he excels in the 34. He was dominant at the Senior Bowl and was the only player to beat Eric Fisher all week long. He has violent hands and incredible quickness off the ball. His upside and potential is through the roof. I was shocked that one of the elite players in the draft simply fell right into the Packers laps. And then in round 2, once again, they draft Eddie Lacy when everyone thought he was an option in round 1. Thompson finds players from all over the country. Small schools, big schools, great players who slip in the draft, developmental gems... Thompson is one of the best in the business.
I'm not sold on Jones. The more I watched him, the more average he looked. I was hoping the Niners wouldn't touch him until the end of the second. He had a great Senior Bowl. He looked fabulous. But his tape was underwhelming for me. And for what the Niners need, which is a 5-Tech who has the ability to kick inside and provide a pass-rush from the interior, I thought Jones was limited and wouldnt thrive in that role. Time will tell.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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AcheTen, just curious, what team do you root for?

I never knew.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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I don't know how any GM can claim to be Ozzie Newsome's equal. Ozzie has been the Ravens one and only general manager. He's not a proxy for the HC who's really calling the shots. No GM currently in the game can match his long term track record.

JJ Watt is one of those rare cases of a player who's exponentially better as a pro than he was as a collegian. You just can't reasonably expect another DL prospect is going to have that kind of improvement in the pros.

Ted Thompson is a good GM. But he's not the best in the game.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bucfan12 View Post
Games are won in the trenches anymore. Sure it's a passing league, but you need to protect that QB right? That;'s why outside the QB position, OL/DL WR and CB are more heavily coveted than Rbs and LBs really.
Still the lowest paid and lowest drafted position in the league for a reason.

You might have a case if awesome OGs couldn't be found in round 5. College OTs that are simply too bulky for OT in the pros often project to OG in the NFL. Like RBs, OGs should not be taken in the top 10. Occasionally there's the rare RB that deserves consideration (like AP) but rarely has there been OGs that deserved top 10 consideration.

You're right, it's now a passing league... one problem with that theory in its relation to OGs... OGs are more important to the running game.

Unless both Cooper and Warmack are perennial all-pros, their teams and fans will regret wasting top 10 selections on them.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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Interior pressure is the best way to disrupt a passing game, and with the way teams force OL's to spread out in pass pro, OGs and Cs are even more important than they've ever been, specifically because of the way it's become a passing league.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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I don't hate the Niners at all.

I'm just being objective about things.

Eric Reid was one of the most overrated safeties in this class. Vaccaro, Elam, Cyprien and Phillip Thomas were all superior prospects.

The Carradine pick is not bad at all, but I am just scared by the injury. But if they're cool with it, he could easily be a great player on that DL.

The TE, again, not bad, but I'm of the mind that if you don't get one of the top2-3 TEs, it's not worth picking one up at all. Think back to recent draft classes. The top TEs are usually awesome (like in 2010 with Gronk/Hernandez/Graham or 2011 with Rudolph/Kendricks or 2012 with Fleener/Allen) but the drop-off after the top 2-3 is pretty steep.
Reid was a guy who opinions varied on tremendously. However, they needed more of a FS type like him over an in the box type like Elam and Cyprien. Thomas is not that good, he's not even the next best guy IMO. I'd take Swearinger and Wilcox over him at the least. I do think that the top 5 safeties were very similarly graded, but I get why they went up for Reid. They couldn't have put all their picks on their roster anyways.

They were smart to take the boom or bust risks on guys like Carradine and Lattimore too IMO. They were the team that could afford too.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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I don't know how any GM can claim to be Ozzie Newsome's equal. Ozzie has been the Ravens one and only general manager. He's not a proxy for the HC who's really calling the shots. No GM currently in the game can match his long term track record.

JJ Watt is one of those rare cases of a player who's exponentially better as a pro than he was as a collegian. You just can't reasonably expect another DL prospect is going to have that kind of improvement in the pros.

Ted Thompson is a good GM. But he's not the best in the game.
I know Belichick did have a few rough drafts, but the amount of talent that he has drafted or otherwise acquired is pretty amazing too. He's also never really had high picks where he could snag up studs like Suggs and Ogden either.

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Old 04-28-2013, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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I personally haven't studied Frederick much, so he may be a great player, but from all the draft reports, he could have been sitting there in the 2nd or even 3rd round.

And I like Barrett Jones alot more than any other C in the class. AND C is basically a low-value position that probably shouldn't be picked in the first round anyway.
But, that just it. Neither you or the draft reports have a clue as to when Frederick would have come off the board. BTW, Frederick was a FAR better guard (where he'll probably play) than he was a center. And his ability to play both well makes him very valuable.

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Tedd Ginn Jr was just as fast and quick. He was also a midget like Austin. Small players can ball in the NFL, but when you're paying a first round premium, a top-10 pick, you don't just want a fast quick guy. You want a fast, quick, BIG guy. The list of little guys who are quick and fast is very long. The list of big guys who are fast and quick is much shorter.
I'm not so sure about a team using such a high selection on such a small player, too. But, while Ginn Jr. was fast, he wasn't and isn't nearly as quick as Austin. Not even close. The kid is rare in that combination and has proven to be far more versatile than any others smaller very fast AND quick guy you could name.

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I would never pick a non-pass-rushing linebacker in the first round. It's just not a value position. Add onto that the fact that Ogletree is a very high bust-likely prospect in the first place, even outside of the fact that his position is low-value, and it's a bad pick for the Rams who could have done a lot better picking an OL or DL that dropped.
Here you are using your bias without having a clue as to the importance of the position for the team that selected him which is a common problem for fans trying to grade drafts of multiple teams. Even so, the kid was the 30th player in a draft that was weak at the top. That's just a couple of spots away from being a 2nd rounder. Would he have been a better pick then? And what OLineman or DLineman should they have taken instead? Obviously not Frederick in you eyes.

BTW, I couldn't disagree more with your take on the 49ers draft, too.

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Old 04-28-2013, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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Still the lowest paid and lowest drafted position in the league for a reason.

You might have a case if awesome OGs couldn't be found in round 5. College OTs that are simply too bulky for OT in the pros often project to OG in the NFL. Like RBs, OGs should not ve taken in the top 10. Occasionally there's the rare RB that deserves consideration (like AP) but rarely has there been OGs that deserved top 10 consideration.

You're right, it's now a passing league... one problem with that theory in its relation to OGs... OGs are more important to the running game.

Unless both Cooper and Warmack are perennial all-pros, their teams and fans will regret wasting top 10 selections on them.
You do realize J.J Watt plays in our division? You do realize no average 4th round pick will ever be able to stop him, let alone Eugene Amano? You do realize that no one would be suprised if Warmack becomes perenial all-pro? No team in the NFL has a better excuse to draft an OG in the top 10 than the Titans.
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Old 04-28-2013, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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Still the lowest paid and lowest drafted position in the league for a reason.

You might have a case if awesome OGs couldn't be found in round 5. College OTs that are simply too bulky for OT in the pros often project to OG in the NFL. Like RBs, OGs should not be taken in the top 10. Occasionally there's the rare RB that deserves consideration (like AP) but rarely has there been OGs that deserved top 10 consideration.

You're right, it's now a passing league... one problem with that theory in its relation to OGs... OGs are more important to the running game.

Unless both Cooper and Warmack are perennial all-pros, their teams and fans will regret wasting top 10 selections on them.
I'm guessing the Titans are ecstatic to get Warmack. You could argue that is too early for a guard but they came back with Hunter at the top of the second so if you flipped those two picks they'd be considered geniuses.

Warmack could concievably make several players on that team better starting with Chris Johnson and Jake Locker.
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Old 04-28-2013, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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Though I am much higher than Warmack then I am Cooper, I believe the Titans and the Cardinals made very wise selections and more importantly safe selections in a draft so weak at the top.

IMO, the Dolphins (Jordan), Lions (Ansah), Browns (Mingo) are really taking a chance going the boom or bust route so early in the draft. Good thing the new rookie contract rule can limit some of the potential damage.
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Old 04-28-2013, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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if you mean killing their rare opportunity of selecting an impact defender and wasting it on vaccaro then yes
C'mon! The Saints got the best rated Safety by pretty much everyone in the draft to cover the weakest link on the team in Roman Harper.
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Old 04-28-2013, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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Still the lowest paid and lowest drafted position in the league for a reason.

You might have a case if awesome OGs couldn't be found in round 5. College OTs that are simply too bulky for OT in the pros often project to OG in the NFL. Like RBs, OGs should not be taken in the top 10. Occasionally there's the rare RB that deserves consideration (like AP) but rarely has there been OGs that deserved top 10 consideration.

You're right, it's now a passing league... one problem with that theory in its relation to OGs... OGs are more important to the running game.

Unless both Cooper and Warmack are perennial all-pros, their teams and fans will regret wasting top 10 selections on them.
I rank the OL positions like this: LT, C, RT, LG/RG

So if someone says taking a Guard in the Top 10 isn't the best use of it, then I have no qualms. Most Titans fans wanted a DE in the first, then Warford in the 2nd or Winters in the 3rd. But I don't agree with your reasoning.

The assertion that teams can just nab an OG in the fifth is something I think is false. No position is like that, unless a team just has a perfect scheme fit. The Titans had a hole at RG, and if they took a 5th RD OG, then that player would be in a tough competition with the vets they signed in FA, Chris Spencer and Rob Johnson. He wouldn't be the favorite to start until his 2nd year, because he went in the 5th because he lacked talent, experience, or was raw. With a pick like Warmack, the Titans not only just filled their need, but they turned a weakness into a strength. That's a day one starter and upgrade.

Not only that, but the Titans face DPOY JJ Watt twice a year, and the Cards face Justin Smith twice, and that dude made the Pro Bowl at two positions. Comparing Warmack vs Watt/Cooper vs Smith to Bakhtiari vs Watt/Watford vs Smith furthers the difference between the two. Both the Tits and Cards filled huge needs, got Top 10 players, and helped neutralize their division rivals' best players.

Also, I think most people expect All Pro/Pro Bowl seasons from these two. Hell, the reality of the situation is that just by being drafted where they were, they now have an edge over everyone else in the voting due to name recognition. Fortunately, both are elite prospects, so they'll probably warrant the honors, and due to the rookie salary cap, they'll be tremendous values. Guards make good money nowadays.
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Old 04-28-2013, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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C'mon! The Saints got the best rated Safety by pretty much everyone in the draft to cover the weakest link on the team in Roman Harper.
My thing is, you had a pretty good FS in Jenkins. He was just surrounded by crap, with virtually no pass-rush what so ever. So now is Jenkins the SS? Just don't get the direction. I think you needed pass-rushers and a slew of CBs more...and this was the draft to stockpile both. I don't really think FS was the issue but I like Vacarro so I can't knock the pick really.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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All I'm going to say, is that the Titans got one of the safest picks in the draft at 10. It's not like we have to pay him a ton like in the past, he'll average around like 2.75m over his rookie contract I believe
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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I'm not sold on Jones. The more I watched him, the more average he looked. I was hoping the Niners wouldn't touch him until the end of the second. He had a great Senior Bowl. He looked fabulous. But his tape was underwhelming for me. And for what the Niners need, which is a 5-Tech who has the ability to kick inside and provide a pass-rush from the interior, I thought Jones was limited and wouldnt thrive in that role. Time will tell.
I couldn't disagree more about Jones. I think he jumps out during games. He's a favorite of mine and I don't think there are more than two or three defensive linemen in this draft that I would take ahead of him. But I am higher on him than most. The Senior Bowl showcased his potential, and I think his best days are to come. His combination of power and quickness is as good as any prospect in this draft. He is just scratching the surface of what's to come. I would not be surprised if he winds being one of the best defenisve players from this draft. I actually expect him to.

I liked the 49ers draft, but I didn't love it. It was certainly better than last years draft where it seemed like they put in no effort to find a future starter; instead opting to draft a bunch of specialists / role players. I think I heard an announcer during the draft talk about the 49ers rookies not making a start last year (or having virtually no impact). I think it's more of an indictment on the 49ers draft, not the fact that they were loaded with talent. They didn't look for a starter, or even an eventual replacement for an aging starter.

I think Eric Reid is going to be a great fit in that defense. He wasn't my favorite safety prospect, but I think he's of the same caliber as Vacarro (and a solid Top 25 prospect). Reid's physical tools are superior to Vacarro, so he has the higher upside.

Tank Carradine is a Top 15 'value pick' in round 2. That might be the best pick of round 2 (Cyprien to the Jaguars is also great). But I was hoping to see them get more aggressive and add more 2nd round prospects since they went into the draft with 13 picks.

Vance Mcdonald... I don't know how much I care for it. First and only time I saw him was at the Senior Bowl. He looked like an NFL player, but he didn't really catch my eye.

I would have liked to see them be more aggressive, not just in the first round, but add more talent from the second round. I would have really liked to see Cyprien in that defense.

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I don't know how any GM can claim to be Ozzie Newsome's equal. Ozzie has been the Ravens one and only general manager. He's not a proxy for the HC who's really calling the shots. No GM currently in the game can match his long term track record.

JJ Watt is one of those rare cases of a player who's exponentially better as a pro than he was as a collegian. You just can't reasonably expect another DL prospect is going to have that kind of improvement in the pros.

Ted Thompson is a good GM. But he's not the best in the game.
Newsome has been in his position for much longer so it might not be fair to Thompson (or to Newsom, for that matter to compare them), but, right now, as it stands today, if I wanted a GM to run my organization, Ted Thompson and Ozzie Newsome are the two leading candidates. And I think it's a tough decision.

The amount of talent Thompson has brought into the Packers organization, mainly through the draft, has been an incredibly impressive list of players. And he's not drafting a bunch of first round players, he finds them everywhere. As a matter of fact, his first round picks have only been maringally successful. But his list of players doesn't compare to Newsome's list, I'm sure, but since 2005 (I think that was Thompson's first draft / first pick being Aaron Rodgers) I'd stack Thompson up against anyone.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:23 AM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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The 49ers class is a boom or bust draft really. I could see Reid turning into a great S or out of the league in 5 years. Carradine and Lattimore are more due to injury concerns. Obviously other teams didnt like Patton as much as I did.

Solid niners draft, but time will truly determine it (as with every other teams)
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:30 AM    (permalink
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Newsome's first draft as GM was 2003. He only has 2 more drafts than Thompson. He was not the GM when the Ravens drafted guys like Lewis, Ogdon, Adalius Thomas, Jamal Lewis, Ed Reed. He didn't really start drafting well until 2006, the year after Thompson took Rodgers. In his first three drafts Newsome basically got Terrell Suggs and a bunch of garbage.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:39 AM    (permalink
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The 49ers drafted a few guys with injuries because they can afford to put guys back in the oven until next year.

Reid isn't a "boom/bust" player. I see him as a solid pick. He might turn out great, but more likely his ceiling and floor are both simply good. I thought it was a very good pick.

The rest of the draft, they just got good players that fit positionally and otherwise with their team.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:00 AM    (permalink
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Newsome's first draft as GM was 2003. He only has 2 more drafts than Thompson. He was not the GM when the Ravens drafted guys like Lewis, Ogdon, Adalius Thomas, Jamal Lewis, Ed Reed. He didn't really start drafting well until 2006, the year after Thompson took Rodgers. In his first three drafts Newsome basically got Terrell Suggs and a bunch of garbage.
This is a little ticky tacky, Ozzie was with the Ravens form the beginning and held the position of Vice President of Player Personnel. This is the same label that John Elway holds in Denver, so yeah, basically he was the GM just wasn't awarded that label until 2002
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:08 AM    (permalink
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Newsome's first draft as GM was 2003. He only has 2 more drafts than Thompson. He was not the GM when the Ravens drafted guys like Lewis, Ogdon, Adalius Thomas, Jamal Lewis, Ed Reed. He didn't really start drafting well until 2006, the year after Thompson took Rodgers. In his first three drafts Newsome basically got Terrell Suggs and a bunch of garbage.
I know you may have deducted that by looking at wikipedia but that's just not true at all. When Art Modell moved the team to Baltimore, Ozzie was made director of football operations and was the one in charge of the draft. He has been the one who responsible for drafting every Baltimore Raven since 1996. He wasn't solely in charge of dealing with the financial side of things earlier on which is why he didn't officially title of General Manager until '03.

edit - mighty beat me to it.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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Newsome's first draft as GM was 2003. He only has 2 more drafts than Thompson. He was not the GM when the Ravens drafted guys like Lewis, Ogdon, Adalius Thomas, Jamal Lewis, Ed Reed. He didn't really start drafting well until 2006, the year after Thompson took Rodgers. In his first three drafts Newsome basically got Terrell Suggs and a bunch of garbage.

In 1996, Ozzie was VP of Player Personnel for the Ravens. He's widely considered to be the driving force behind the selection of all the players you previously mentioned.
The Ravens didn't have anyone occupying the official title of General Manager until Modell promoted him to that executive position. For the most part the VP of Player Personnel was the Ravens GM.

Every player the Ravens have drafted was an Ozzie Newsome selection.

You are talking out of you ass if you think Ozzie didn't select EVERY SINGLE DAMN PLAYER who's ever worn a Ravens uni.

Ozzie's first draft was in 1996, not 2003, when he selected Ogden with the 4th pick and Ray Lewis with the 26th.
To this day Ozzie still talks about how at the time there was debate in the scouting community that Lawrence Phillips should have been the pick over Ogden, who some considered merely good but not great.

EDIT: LOL. Guess I wasn't the only one who thought everyone knew that Ozzie was always the Ravens GM, even if he didn't have that official title until '03.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by mightytitan9 View Post
This is a little ticky tacky, Ozzie was with the Ravens form the beginning and held the position of Vice President of Player Personnel. This is the same label that John Elway holds in Denver, so yeah, basically he was the GM just wasn't awarded that label until 2002
Not really. If we're judging them as GMs it should start when they become GMs. Thompson was director of player personnel for the Packers when they went to their two Super Bowls in the 90s. No one's giving him credit for building those teams.


EDIT: Ahhh ****. And this is why I usually stay from commenting if I don't really know my ****.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:23 AM    (permalink
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I'm a niner fan and can't give a grade due to bias. I thought our draft was legendary. I'll choose other teams:

Winners:
- Bengals. IMO, their first 3 picks can help put them over the top. Eifert and Bernard add new dimentions to a bland offense. Margus will immediately contribute to an underrated defense. Got nice value late with Hamilton and I'm a Rex Burkhead fan.

- Steelers. Classic steelers draft. Jarvis falls right into their laps. Grab LaVeon Bell whom I love. Markus Wheaton is a steal. Thomas and Hawthorne are nice prospects. Interrested to see how Landry Jones turns out.
Losers:
- Raiders. I actually liked the trade back. DJ Hayden was the #1 corner on a lot of boards. I would have taken star but the pick is OK. The rest of their draft was 'meh' to me.
- Browns. Mingo is a great athlete, I just don't like picking him that high and the rest of their draft doesn't excite me.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:20 AM    (permalink
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I'm liking what the Jags did. Filled needs and also picked up some playmakers which they have been lacking
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