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Old 04-29-2013, 08:25 AM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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Originally Posted by nepg View Post
The 49ers drafted a few guys with injuries because they can afford to put guys back in the oven until next year.

Reid isn't a "boom/bust" player. I see him as a solid pick. He might turn out great, but more likely his ceiling and floor are both simply good. I thought it was a very good pick.
The problem is that they traded UP in the first round to basically get the 4th or 5th best safety.

If you watched Reid at all in his time at LSU, he benefited from a great overall defense and stout defensive line. When he was asked to do things in coverage, he was consistently burnt. He doesnt' have the ability to play the passing game like the other safeties in this class.

I would have taken Matt Elam, Jonathan Cyprien, Kenny Vaccaro, and even Phillip Thomas over Reid. It was a bad pick by the 49ers because they could have had one of those guys over him.



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The rest of the draft, they just got good players that fit positionally and otherwise with their team.
The rest of their draft was mostly injured guys who they are banking on stashing and recovering later. Most drafted players bust regardless of injury, but you throw injury on top of things and you have maybe a 10-15% return rate on all of these players. It's a risky way to do things, because it speaks of an over-confidence in your current roster.

The 49ers probably feel that they don't need any one of those injured players to come back and contribute, because they like their current roster so much as it is. That is the wrong way to go about things in the NFL. In the NFL, nobody's roster is safe from injury or any other kind of departure. Today the 49ers look like a great team but in only a year or two injuries and free agency can make them just another average team. And because they spent this entire draft class grabbing an average safety (Reid) and an average TE (Mcdonald) and a bunch of injured guys, they probably won't have elite talent waiting in the wings to replenish the team.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
I would have taken Matt Elam, Jonathan Cyprien, Kenny Vaccaro, and even Phillip Thomas over Reid. It was a bad pick by the 49ers because they could have had one of those guys over him.

So if I like Shamarko Thomas over Kenny Vaccaro and the Saints could have gotten Thomas over Vaccaro that makes it a bad pick just because I say so? Oh ok, cool story.



You need to stop with the 49er stuff, that's all you ever post about here is how the Niners didn't do this good, or they drafted this guy who will suck, and their team really isn't that good because if they suffer a few injuries they'll be bad. It's just getting old.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
The problem is that they traded UP in the first round to basically get the 4th or 5th best safety.

If you watched Reid at all in his time at LSU, he benefited from a great overall defense and stout defensive line. When he was asked to do things in coverage, he was consistently burnt. He doesnt' have the ability to play the passing game like the other safeties in this class.

I would have taken Matt Elam, Jonathan Cyprien, Kenny Vaccaro, and even Phillip Thomas over Reid. It was a bad pick by the 49ers because they could have had one of those guys over him.





The rest of their draft was mostly injured guys who they are banking on stashing and recovering later. Most drafted players bust regardless of injury, but you throw injury on top of things and you have maybe a 10-15% return rate on all of these players. It's a risky way to do things, because it speaks of an over-confidence in your current roster.

The 49ers probably feel that they don't need any one of those injured players to come back and contribute, because they like their current roster so much as it is. That is the wrong way to go about things in the NFL. In the NFL, nobody's roster is safe from injury or any other kind of departure. Today the 49ers look like a great team but in only a year or two injuries and free agency can make them just another average team. And because they spent this entire draft class grabbing an average safety (Reid) and an average TE (Mcdonald) and a bunch of injured guys, they probably won't have elite talent waiting in the wings to replenish the team.
Hyperbole much? We drafted two injured players, not "a bunch". And one of them is nearly 6 weeks ahead of schedule on his rehab(Carradine) and should be ready before TC. But I suspect we'll put him on the PUP, bring him along slowly and activate him during the middle of the season...because we can afford to.

The other guy plays at arguably our deepest and most talented position that even if we injured reserved him for two straight seasons, we wouldn't miss a beat. That might difficult for you to comprehend but yeah...Gore, Hunter, and James. We don't even have enough carries for the guys already on the roster. And I didn't even mention Jewell Hampton, who I think is going to suprise alot of ppl.

You can say McDonald and Reid are bad picks and that's fine, your entitled to your own opinion, regardless of how flawed it may be. But you sound like a full on hater(which you are, its been well documented) with the injuries and free agency bit. That applies to EVERY team in the NFL, not just the Niners.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:42 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by VAfy-ya View Post
My thing is, you had a pretty good FS in Jenkins. He was just surrounded by crap, with virtually no pass-rush what so ever. So now is Jenkins the SS? Just don't get the direction. I think you needed pass-rushers and a slew of CBs more...and this was the draft to stockpile both. I don't really think FS was the issue but I like Vacarro so I can't knock the pick really.
one of the many issues i had with vaccaro is that he does not have a complimentary skillset to jenkins whatsoever. It was almsot like the picks was made to put jenkins back to corner (which would be a terrible idea). A backfield of Vaccaro, Jenkins, Lewis and Greer will result in just aweful tackling for another season and a ton of huge runs. The passing game might have theoretically been helped but with the non-existent pass rush the only incomplete passes are still going to be poorly thrown balls.

That being said my biggest issue with Vaccaro remains that i just fail to see a positive in his game. When i watch UT film he doesnt stand out, he didnt test all that well and he is just lost when he is supposed to tackle in open space.

Test my history ive been trying to found out what makes vaccaro a first rounder (instead of the 5th ish rounder i see on film) since long before the draft and i just dont see it.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wicket View Post
one of the many issues i had with vaccaro is that he does not have a complimentary skillset to jenkins whatsoever. It was almsot like the picks was made to put jenkins back to corner (which would be a terrible idea). A backfield of Vaccaro, Jenkins, Lewis and Greer will result in just aweful tackling for another season and a ton of huge runs. The passing game might have theoretically been helped but with the non-existent pass rush the only incomplete passes are still going to be poorly thrown balls.

That being said my biggest issue with Vaccaro remains that i just fail to see a positive in his game. When i watch UT film he doesnt stand out, he didnt test all that well and he is just lost when he is supposed to tackle in open space.

Test my history ive been trying to found out what makes vaccaro a first rounder (instead of the 5th ish rounder i see on film) since long before the draft and i just dont see it.
To reiterate my point from earlier in this thread, watch him in pass coverage. And compare his tackling to the other safeties in this class. Really think you're being too critical of a guy there aren't many who disagree is if not the top safety in the class, at the very least still a solid 1st rounder and 2nd safety in the class.
The Saints draft is one of the ones I am most impressed with, particularly the 3rd round and getting what they got for Ivory, they played that really well, my GM got owned big time there.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Robcards View Post
To reiterate my point from earlier in this thread, watch him in pass coverage. And compare his tackling to the other safeties in this class. Really think you're being too critical of a guy there aren't many who disagree is if not the top safety in the class, at the very least still a solid 1st rounder and 2nd safety in the class.
The Saints draft is one of the ones I am most impressed with, particularly the 3rd round and getting what they got for Ivory, they played that really well, my GM got owned big time there.
i love the Armstead pick (graded it an A in the grdes thread) and really liked the jenkins pick (wasnt nuts about the tradeup due to the depth in this draft i wouldve rather hung on to the 2 fourth rounders but the value, need and fit were all great) so im not hating on the full draft.

The ivory deal is kind of twofold as i legitimately think he should be your opening day starting running back and if he can stay healthy he will be the jets best offensive weapon. Not many backs combine speed, power and agression like ivory does and he was criminally underutilized by the saints, only to defend the ingram debacle.

That being said if i compare the tackling of vaccaro with the other safeties in this class he grades out nearly to the bottom for me, he seems to play out of control 24/7. The whole safety who can cover man2man is also a thing we already had with jenkins, we needed a safety that can play deep in a cover 1 and make the right decision, a safety that can read plays well consistently and tackles consistently and takes the right angles more often than not. Vaccaro imho is not that guy at all.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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The most underrated pick in the Saints draft might have been John Jenkins from Georgia. They now have their Casey Hampton esque monster nose tackle for their new 3-4.
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Old 04-29-2013, 10:16 AM    (permalink
VAfy-ya
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Originally Posted by wicket View Post
one of the many issues i had with vaccaro is that he does not have a complimentary skillset to jenkins whatsoever. It was almsot like the picks was made to put jenkins back to corner (which would be a terrible idea). A backfield of Vaccaro, Jenkins, Lewis and Greer will result in just aweful tackling for another season and a ton of huge runs. The passing game might have theoretically been helped but with the non-existent pass rush the only incomplete passes are still going to be poorly thrown balls.

That being said my biggest issue with Vaccaro remains that i just fail to see a positive in his game. When i watch UT film he doesnt stand out, he didnt test all that well and he is just lost when he is supposed to tackle in open space.

Test my history ive been trying to found out what makes vaccaro a first rounder (instead of the 5th ish rounder i see on film) since long before the draft and i just dont see it.
The thing with Vacarro is he's not really a all-around safety. He lacks the impact, in and around the box to be one. I just loved his ability to man the slot and be a true centerfielder. He's a better athlete than he tested. You can just see it in his tape. But his lack of physicality in the run game was a concern. He choose when and where he wanted to stick his nose into the frey, which was a bit of a turnoff.

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Old 04-29-2013, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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Newsome's first draft as GM was 2003. He only has 2 more drafts than Thompson. He was not the GM when the Ravens drafted guys like Lewis, Ogdon, Adalius Thomas, Jamal Lewis, Ed Reed. He didn't really start drafting well until 2006, the year after Thompson took Rodgers. In his first three drafts Newsome basically got Terrell Suggs and a bunch of garbage.
He was vice president of player personnel starting in '96 and considered the architect of that draft and those that followed.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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Newsome's first draft as GM was 2003. He only has 2 more drafts than Thompson. He was not the GM when the Ravens drafted guys like Lewis, Ogdon, Adalius Thomas, Jamal Lewis, Ed Reed. He didn't really start drafting well until 2006, the year after Thompson took Rodgers. In his first three drafts Newsome basically got Terrell Suggs and a bunch of garbage.

Lol. Way to try and find a way to paint the picture any way you want to. He was the primary person responsible for those drafts starting in 1996 when they got Lewis & Ogden and you won't find one single person who doesn't give him credit for those picks, and all the ones after that built that defense.


So yea, the guys you just glossed over he was responsible for drafting.


Ray Lewis
Jonathan Ogden
Peter Boulware
Jamie Sharper
Chris McCallister
Jamal Lewis
Adalius Thomas


All happened before Ed Reed. He was responsible for every single one of those picks. Unless you know something nobody else does, everyone knows he wasn't the GM in 96 but not one person even tries 2 give the credit to anyone but him.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by KLima878 View Post
I'm liking what the Jags did. Filled needs and also picked up some playmakers which they have been lacking
Denard Robinson will be a force in this league. Sanders intrigues me as well. Not huge on the Joeckel pick, but I get it. Cyprien was a very nice get.
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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I'm not even going to attempt to discredit Newsome or say one thing that could be viewed negatively (he's drafted enough Hall of Fame players to earn such praises, and won enough Super Bowls). He's been the best drafting GM for over a nearly 20 years.

But since 2005, here is a look at a few of the players Ted Thompson has drafted:

Aaron Rodgers
Clay Matthews
Casey Hayward
Randall Cobb
Greg Jennings
Nick Collins
BJ Raji
Josh Sitton
Daryn Colledge
Jason Spitz
Jordy Nelson
James Jones
Jermichael Finley
AJ Hawk
Matt Flynn
Bryan Bulaga
Marshall Newhouse
Morgan Burnett
Mike Neal
TJ Lang


Those are not all the draft picks that he's made that have contributed to the team. Just the more prominent ones. And this excludes undrafted free agents (he has a nice track record there as well), or draft day trades for players (like a 4th string RB named Ryan Grant for a 6th Round draft pick).

And he didn't have the easiest of decisions to make. Taking Aaron Rodgers in hindsight seems like a no-brainer, but at the time... Taking a QB in round 1 to be a future starter with Brett Favre still playing very good football? It's hard to convince yourself you are going to spend a first round pick on a QB that might sit on the bench for four or five years seeing as how you have the Cal Ripken of NFL QBs. That doesn't happen too often. And then, after three years of letting that first round pick sit on the bench, you send the future Hall of Fame QB (and a legend in Wisconsin) packing for in proven QB... That's pretty ballsy.

And I consider Mike McCarthy one of the best head coaches in football. So I think that was a great hire.
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Tahj Boyd has the best fundamentals of any QB in this class, I think his game translates great to the NFL.

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Old 04-29-2013, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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The 49ers class is a boom or bust draft really. I could see Reid turning into a great S or out of the league in 5 years. Carradine and Lattimore are more due to injury concerns. Obviously other teams didnt like Patton as much as I did.

Solid niners draft, but time will truly determine it (as with every other teams)
Aren't all drafts "boom or bust" to an extent? We've seen so many "safe" picks bust out (Curry, McClain, etc) that i think the term has lost meaning. I do think our GM likes to target athletic and physical guys with high upside. And we have a good coaching staff to maximize that talent and finds roles.

I think the FO likes to see what guys have done at their best, and see if they can maximize those talents. For example, see Reid. Good 2011, bad 2012. Why did he have a bad 2012, and why was he good in 2011? What changed, how can we fix it? I think the 49ers look at the players strengths and see how they can maximize it. They know they can get the best out of players now, with our coaching and surrounding talent.

I also don't think the injuries are a big concern...we have a top notch medical staff and ACL's aren't career killers anymore. But who knows. We have a history of selecting guys coming off injury. Aldon Smith in 2011 and Joe Looney in 2012 come to mind right away.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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Matt Elam will be a liability in coverage against Tight ends because of his size. Not to mention he's not a free safety. I'm very pleased the Niners stayed away from him. It's bad enough we already have a SS who can't cover tight ends in Whitner.
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