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Old 10-09-2013, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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In all honesty, I agree with Zak. If you really want to talk elite, Rodgers and Brees aren't in the class of Brady and Peyton. Hell, it could be argued Peyton is in a class by himself. Does that make him the only elite? Are tiers the end all for the word elite? This is what I mean, SP. I can easily say Peyton and Brady are the only elite because Rodgers and Brees aren't on their level. Thus why the "elite" argument is the stupidest thing in the history of ever.
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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I left Rodgers out intentionally :P

I wanted SP to throw a fit
Nevertheless. I'd have Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Luck. After that it gets interesting.
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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In all honesty, I agree with Zak. If you really want to talk elite, Rodgers and Brees aren't in the class of Brady and Peyton. Hell, it could be argued Peyton is in a class by himself. Does that make him the only elite?
Unless you're talking about full careers, wat?
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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Eh. I guess you can argue it, but it's an uphill battle. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers all have shattered or hold various significant records and such, have DOMINANT seasons and/or post season runs, have led all time great offenses.

Brady hasn't won a title since they've turned it into a Brady Centric team, offense first.... but he's been there twice, and led some of the best offenses of all time ,and still has his 3 rings from when he wasn't quite as good as he is now.

The other 3 have smashed records left and right as well, and have had great success as well, even on offense heavy teams that leave a LOT to be desired defensively at times.

I guess you can argue it, but you can also argue that Rodgers' best season stacks up with any of theirs, and you can argue that Brees has the best numbers of the 4 since 2006(when he joined New Orleans).

Eli's argument to be put into a tier with any of these 4 is flimsy at best, if you're being objective. If only two are elite, the other two are certainly still better than Eli..
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:15 PM    (permalink
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the past two years I've only argued that Eli is the 5th best QB in the league behind those four. I don't want stupid labels being thrown around.

And right now, there is absolutely no QB in the tier of Peyton. Not even brady.

and look, I've already pissed off a packers fan.

BUT LOOK SP ELITE IS BEING CHANGED ONLY TO FIT FAVORITE PLAYERS, LOOK LOOK LOOK.

THIS is what I'm talking about
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:30 PM    (permalink
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In all honesty, I agree with Zak. If you really want to talk elite, Rodgers and Brees aren't in the class of Brady and Peyton. Hell, it could be argued Peyton is in a class by himself. Does that make him the only elite? Are tiers the end all for the word elite? This is what I mean, SP. I can easily say Peyton and Brady are the only elite because Rodgers and Brees aren't on their level. Thus why the "elite" argument is the stupidest thing in the history of ever.
I can't agree on Peyton being in a tier alone. The Brady Manning debate is subjective but one thing I don't believe is, is that Brady is right there with Manning and ahead in my book but like I said that's subjective. I have no problem having Brady and everyone else after.

Also....Luck elite? Yeah right(not directed at you scotty)
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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The supporting cast in Denver right now is insane. I don't think Brady has ever had one of that quality. Certainly debatable. I'd start with looking at the 2007 roster.
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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The supporting cast in Denver right now is insane. I don't think Brady has ever had one of that quality. Certainly debatable. I'd start with looking at the 2007 roster.
which is why I said it's debatable.

But then you can bring in the systems that Rodgers and Brees are in. If we're really doing tiers, Brady and Manning are on one by themselves. Does that not make Rodgers and Brees elite? That's my point
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:49 AM    (permalink
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So would it be like

elite
super duper elite?
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:14 AM    (permalink
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Manning is playing at a tier above the others right now. Lets see how long it sustains, I'd think the current pace isn't sustainable. Might still put up the best statistical season ever. Depends on by how much IMO, before you start completely separating him...

Before this stretch, I had Aaron Rodgers as the best player in the NFL. Peyton is playing like the best player in football again though.

As for Brees, and the "system"... what part of the system makes his life so easy? Brees hasn't led the league in attempts in like 5 years, it's not just a pure volume thing. He's had the least amount of pro bowl weapons of any of these guys (Graham).

The Saints have a lot of guys who have great hands over the years, that aren't creating a ton of separation, and the "system" is for Brees to fit the ball into really tight windows.

Brees takes the most chances with the ball, but he's also the most accurate of the 4, IMO.
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Old 10-10-2013, 08:02 AM    (permalink
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There is some great Jadeveon Clowney scouting going on in this thread... *njx eyeroll*
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:38 AM    (permalink
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What are the two big issues surrounding this prospect? Motivation or attitude issues & bone spurs in his right leg, correct? Those are the two really important negatives we are hearing regarding JC right?
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:00 AM    (permalink
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What are the two big issues surrounding this prospect? Motivation or attitude issues & bone spurs in his right leg, correct? Those are the two really important negatives we are hearing regarding JC right?
The two biggest surrounding this prospect are:

1. The draft is in May
2. This is October

People say Clowney is just waiting to get paid. Doesn't care about his teammates. Doesn't care about his coaches. Doesn't care about the fans etc etc

Yet people were saying he should have sat out the entire year???

I will bet that Clowney is a top 3 pick in the draft regardless of what happens the rest of the year with the exception of a major injury which is exactly why this whole hoopla is happening. He knows that is the only thing that will stop him.

Clowney is being doubled and tripled an obscene amount of times. Teams are running away from him. He has little to no help.

NFL scouts will know this and he is going to blow up the combine. The only reason he may not be the top pick is because QB trumps all.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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The two biggest surrounding this prospect are:

1. The draft is in May
2. This is October

People say Clowney is just waiting to get paid. Doesn't care about his teammates. Doesn't care about his coaches. Doesn't care about the fans etc etc

Yet people were saying he should have sat out the entire year???

I will bet that Clowney is a top 3 pick in the draft regardless of what happens the rest of the year with the exception of a major injury which is exactly why this whole hoopla is happening. He knows that is the only thing that will stop him.

Clowney is being doubled and tripled an obscene amount of times. Teams are running away from him. He has little to no help.

NFL scouts will know this and he is going to blow up the combine. The only reason he may not be the top pick is because QB trumps all.
This is correct on all fronts.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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What great college defensive player isn't run away from or double teamed??

I have a hard time believing Clowney won't be a productive pro, but I would not be surprised if he's never a truly elite player in the NFL.

Athletically he's a bigger Jevon Kearse.
I just don't think he'll wind up being a player you can build your defense around.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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How is a bigger Jevon Kearse not exactly what you want to build around athletically?
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:55 AM    (permalink
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How is a bigger Jevon Kearse not exactly what you want to build around athletically?
How good really was Kearse after his rookie season?? A couple of double digit sack years consecutively after his DROTY campaign, then he became just a solid starter but was never dominant.

There's just something about Clowney that makes me feel he's far from a 'can't miss' NFL prospect.
Excluding injury he'll never be a flat out bust, but his becoming an elite NFL defender isn't automatic IMO.
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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The two biggest surrounding this prospect are:

1. The draft is in May
2. This is October

People say Clowney is just waiting to get paid. Doesn't care about his teammates. Doesn't care about his coaches. Doesn't care about the fans etc etc

Yet people were saying he should have sat out the entire year???

I will bet that Clowney is a top 3 pick in the draft regardless of what happens the rest of the year with the exception of a major injury which is exactly why this whole hoopla is happening. He knows that is the only thing that will stop him.

Clowney is being doubled and tripled an obscene amount of times. Teams are running away from him. He has little to no help.

NFL scouts will know this and he is going to blow up the combine. The only reason he may not be the top pick is because QB trumps all.


How do you see him if he does have a chronic issue with bone spurs in his leg? Should that impact his stock?
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Bone spurs are nothing more than a nuisance. He's had them since high school but they haven't impacted his production at all.
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:02 PM    (permalink
SuperPacker
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In all honesty, I agree with Zak. If you really want to talk elite, Rodgers and Brees aren't in the class of Brady and Peyton. Hell, it could be argued Peyton is in a class by himself. Does that make him the only elite? Are tiers the end all for the word elite? This is what I mean, SP. I can easily say Peyton and Brady are the only elite because Rodgers and Brees aren't on their level. Thus why the "elite" argument is the stupidest thing in the history of ever.
So your opinion of who is elite is subjective...not the meaning of the word. If you think Peyton and Brady are in a class of their own, good for you? That's a fair statement. I'd argue Rodgers and Brees are in that tier as well, but to each their own. I just find it hilarious when Giants fans say Eli is elite, because of how ridiculously homerish it is.

And it's funny that people think I would get upset about them saying anything slightly negative towards anything Packer related.
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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Rodgers is Eli's *****, if we're gonna be real about it.

#NotElite
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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What's with all the QB talk?

Is Jadevon going to play QB now? I mean, he would know what the DLine was thinking so he'd have a clear advantage amirite?
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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You can't spell elite with Eli. Case closed.

But seriously, I'm almost certain the majority of posts in this thread have nothing to do with scouting Clowney. First there was the debate on the merits of taking a quarterback first overall, then NYG general discussion, and now the elite as **** debate.
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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This thread seems to mostly be trolls trolling trolls.
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Old 10-10-2013, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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How good really was Kearse after his rookie season?? A couple of double digit sack years consecutively after his DROTY campaign, then he became just a solid starter but was never dominant.

There's just something about Clowney that makes me feel he's far from a 'can't miss' NFL prospect.
Excluding injury he'll never be a flat out bust, but his becoming an elite NFL defender isn't automatic IMO.
How many times was Kearse operating at full healthy? Kearse's only knock was size and durability. If he's a bigger version of Kearse, he's going to be a terrifying player.
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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