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Old 07-02-2013, 11:50 PM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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It's really interesting that people still believe that RBs can be found in later rounds and exceed but other positions can't.

If you were to rank the top 10-15 RBs in the NFL, I'd say it'd be fairly even on how many were 1st rounders between RB and CB.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:52 AM    (permalink
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I dont understand how you can just ignore what the Alex Gibbs/Mike Shanahan's system is doing and has done in the past.


Mike Anderson - 6th round
Olandis Gary - 4th round
Reuben Droughns (FB) - 3rd round
Terrell Davis - 6th round

Alfred Morris - 6th round

Steve Slaton - 3rd round
Arian Foster - Undrafted



All of those guys were 1100+ yard backs, all drafted outside of the 2nd round and all of them were at one point in time or currently workhourse backs


The System that Shanahan and kubiak use in the ZBS dont need a high round pick, they need someone that will make one cut and hit the hole...not try and dance around.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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I don't get how we can knock other RBs who thrived in Shanny's system then turn around and say Portis was great in it and they should have kept him bc he thrived in it. How does that make sense?

Especially since Portis' numbers also dropped after he left the system. He was just as much of a system RB for them as the others were. He just happened to be a better one.

Champ on the other hand was a boss no matter how you slice it. I just don't see how this is even an argument to be honest. Portis was a good running back. Champ was a HOF caliber CB.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:05 AM    (permalink
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Yeah Champ is a sure fire HOF player that happens to still be playing at a high level.


You factor in shelf life and this trade is a no brainer.

maybe 5-7 years of elite HB play barring injury v. 10+ years of elite CB player and the option to convert to safety for some to extend that to say 12-13 years


HBs in the system are replaceable but in the end it doesnt matter what kind of system you are running if your CBs cant cover they cant cover..
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:18 AM    (permalink
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Yeah Champ is a sure fire HOF player that happens to still be playing at a high level.


You factor in shelf life and this trade is a no brainer.

maybe 5-7 years of elite HB play barring injury v. 10+ years of elite CB player and the option to convert to safety for some to extend that to say 12-13 years


HBs in the system are replaceable but in the end it doesnt matter what kind of system you are running if your CBs cant cover they cant cover..
Just to top it off, Denver got a 2nd round pick in the deal as well. (Which was spent on Tatum Bell, who ironically might be the worst of the Shanahan system RBs, and even he was able to put up 2K yards, roughly 5 yds pr carry and 10 tds in his last two seasons in Denver in 05 and 06.)
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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Yes the scheme is very friendly. nobody can deny that. But let's not act like Portis was some chump who was a product of the scheme. He still put up 1500 yards with the Redskins, and finished his career with almost 10000 yards in 9 seasons, including 3 seasons where he played less than 8 games.

The difference is that Portis averaged 5.5ypc during his two seasons with the Broncos and was a home run threat. None of the other backs really possessed that kind of playmaking ability. Teams respected the run differently when Portis was there.

In hindsight, longevity has leaned towards Champ Bailey. I would still keep Portis to this day. The only reason I would change that is if I could go back and redraft the 2nd round pick.

Although Champ has had a great career and is a HOFer, I repeat that I don't think he's led the Broncos to many wins. Shanahan needed a defense, that's why he did the trade. But he failed to surround Champ with a defense capable of stopping high-octane offenses in the playoffs. For that, he probably would have been better off keeping Portis
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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please dont kid yourself and try to paint Portis as a Barry Sanders or Adrian Peterson type of guy that has NO ONE around him, no O-line and still produced...


Portis had Talent around him throughout his whole career, and if you want to look at his whole career his entire time in Washington he never sniffed the 5.0+YPC mark.... he had durability issues and without the ZBS he was never the same big play guy.


Champ is one of the best players at his position in NFL history and throw in the fact that he continues to play great and with his style of play could even add a couple years at the safety spot.



Your rationale is riduculous in terms of not wanting a HOF CB because he isnt directly winning games.... if you really consider the fact that he might get tested 20-30 times a whole season, it doesnt really give ANY great CB alot of opportunities to "win" games... but being able to take a teams best weapon out of the game is very impactful because it forces the team to change their plans up.

Not every position has the ability to what you consider "win" games.... but a shutdown playmaking CB is everybit as important as a HB and with the ability that shanny and co have had since 1995 in finding almost anyone to be productive kinda proves that HB for the most part isnt someone you need to draft in the 1st round.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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I know Champ has had a great career as a Bronco and was needed badly, and is still there, but I still question the move to trade Portis
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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The problem stemmed from them making wrong choice after wrong choice. This trade not only did the Bronco's a huge favor, but it set the Skins back years. They had to trade Champ after paying Arrington IIRC. then then they took a a gifted playmaker and tried to turn him into a work horse back. If they would have just waited, and drafted appropriately, they could have had Champ, Sean Taylor, Adrian Peterson, and Aaron Rodgers all on the same team. Instead they had a lot of heartache and misfortune. Butterfly effect in full swing.

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Yes the scheme is very friendly. nobody can deny that. But let's not act like Portis was some chump who was a product of the scheme. He still put up 1500 yards with the Redskins, and finished his career with almost 10000 yards in 9 seasons, including 3 seasons where he played less than 8 games.

The difference is that Portis averaged 5.5ypc during his two seasons with the Broncos and was a home run threat. None of the other backs really possessed that kind of playmaking ability. Teams respected the run differently when Portis was there.

In hindsight, longevity has leaned towards Champ Bailey. I would still keep Portis to this day. The only reason I would change that is if I could go back and redraft the 2nd round pick.

Although Champ has had a great career and is a HOFer, I repeat that I don't think he's led the Broncos to many wins. Shanahan needed a defense, that's why he did the trade. But he failed to surround Champ with a defense capable of stopping high-octane offenses in the playoffs. For that, he probably would have been better off keeping Portis
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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Took you long enough.
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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The problem stemmed from them making wrong choice after wrong choice. This trade not only did the Bronco's a huge favor, but it set the Skins back years. They had to trade Champ after paying Arrington IIRC. then then they took a a gifted playmaker and tried to turn him into a work horse back. If they would have just waited, and drafted appropriately, they could have had Champ, Sean Taylor, Adrian Peterson, and Aaron Rodgers all on the same team. Instead they had a lot of heartache and misfortune. Butterfly effect in full swing.
You could argue this for many teams in the league. This is irrelevant
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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please dont kid yourself and try to paint Portis as a Barry Sanders or Adrian Peterson type of guy that has NO ONE around him, no O-line and still produced...


Portis had Talent around him throughout his whole career, and if you want to look at his whole career his entire time in Washington he never sniffed the 5.0+YPC mark.... he had durability issues and without the ZBS he was never the same big play guy.


Champ is one of the best players at his position in NFL history and throw in the fact that he continues to play great and with his style of play could even add a couple years at the safety spot.



Your rationale is riduculous in terms of not wanting a HOF CB because he isnt directly winning games.... if you really consider the fact that he might get tested 20-30 times a whole season, it doesnt really give ANY great CB alot of opportunities to "win" games... but being able to take a teams best weapon out of the game is very impactful because it forces the team to change their plans up.

Not every position has the ability to what you consider "win" games.... but a shutdown playmaking CB is everybit as important as a HB and with the ability that shanny and co have had since 1995 in finding almost anyone to be productive kinda proves that HB for the most part isnt someone you need to draft in the 1st round.
I never once said or implied that Portis didn't have anyone around him. And even Sanders and Peterson have had players around them, so I don't really see what this has to do with anything.

Portis was also called to be more of a pounding back in Washington if you watched his games. He was very impressive in a role that didn't fit his style at all.

Your argument about being tested is irrelevant as well. I am not talking statistically. At times Champ didn't have big stats because he wasn't tested and couldn't make plays. Fact. But does eliminating one WR for a good portion of a game win games? To me, no.

As for your last paragraph, there's just as many good CBs in the league that weren't first rounders as their are RBs
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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and this, folks, is why you simply shouldn't talk when you don't know what you're talking about. shanahan didn't "need a defense" (whatever you think that means), he'd been unable to draft a cornerback who wasn't a sieve. he was an all around terrible drafter and personnel evaluator for the vast majority of the 00's. portis doesn't give that team (or any team since the trade) a single win. bailey demonstrably did, in the season that he finished second to jason taylor for defensive mvp (2006). there is absolutely no part of any of this paragraph that you're even in the vague realm of being correct about.
So you think the fact that his defense was horrible and got stomped by the Colts in the playoffs was no factor? Please. Go back and watch Shanahans interviews after the trade.

You've provided no evidence other than your own opinion that Bailey won games. By your standards, finishing 2nd to Jason Taylor for defensive MVP means he won games? Yet Portis didn't?

This is why you shouldn't get in conversations you have nothing to add.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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Someone mentioned Kellen Winslow Jr.


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Old 07-03-2013, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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I will give Portis the credit for being a big play back, but as I pointed out Mike Anderson had a 5 YPC during his big year... my point is the line the Broncos had during the early 2000's was one of the best in the game.

You pointed out he became a workhourse back in Washington, but the funny thing is there have been other HBs that were used just as much as Portis...Jamal Lewis, Adrian Peterson, Terrell Davis and Ladainian Tomlinson.


Portis wasnt some once in a generation type player or something, he was a good productive back. You are selling Champ short because what you have in your mind is him recently at 35 getting beat a couple times deep.


You dont see him on a game to game basis, he is litterally the most complete DB in the game still even at his age. His willingness to cover TEs or come up and stop the run are what sets him apart from other CBs that have had a good season or two and somehow became the best thing since sliced bread.

Bailey at 25 (The age when the trade occured) was just hitting his prime and he was already the games best DB. He went on to have what some consider one of the best seasons for any defensive player, but someone lost out to Jason Taylor because sacks are the "sexy" stat.


But the point is Portis was never the same player as he was in Denver, and that could be because he became a power back or whatever... but he declined after the trade and Bailey kept getting better not to mention actually played in most of the games since then while Portis became a wornout HB.
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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lol. ok, how many, specifically, game saving interceptions did champ have inside the opponents red zone, stalling potentially game winning drives that season? no idea? then maybe it's about time to admit you don't have the faintest clue what you're talking about and go back to the titans team board for a while.

or you can watch some interviews and pretend that's remotely the same as having actually watched the games. i'll never understand the box score warriors on this site.
Many were within the 20, many of them were when the offenses were challenging the Broncos deep and Bailey made great plays on the balls around the Broncos goal line.

Game winning drive stallers? I'd say one possibly 0 depending on how you looked at it
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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I will give Portis the credit for being a big play back, but as I pointed out Mike Anderson had a 5 YPC during his big year... my point is the line the Broncos had during the early 2000's was one of the best in the game.

You pointed out he became a workhourse back in Washington, but the funny thing is there have been other HBs that were used just as much as Portis...Jamal Lewis, Adrian Peterson, Terrell Davis and Ladainian Tomlinson.


Portis wasnt some once in a generation type player or something, he was a good productive back. You are selling Champ short because what you have in your mind is him recently at 35 getting beat a couple times deep.


You dont see him on a game to game basis, he is litterally the most complete DB in the game still even at his age. His willingness to cover TEs or come up and stop the run are what sets him apart from other CBs that have had a good season or two and somehow became the best thing since sliced bread.

Bailey at 25 (The age when the trade occured) was just hitting his prime and he was already the games best DB. He went on to have what some consider one of the best seasons for any defensive player, but someone lost out to Jason Taylor because sacks are the "sexy" stat.


But the point is Portis was never the same player as he was in Denver, and that could be because he became a power back or whatever... but he declined after the trade and Bailey kept getting better not to mention actually played in most of the games since then while Portis became a wornout HB.
Whats your point with listing the other RBs?

I'm not challenging anything on how good/great Champ is, he's always been one of my favorite CBs since he entered the league. I am simply saying, I wouldn't have done the trade and I will leave it at that.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SunTzu_22 View Post
Just to top it off, Denver got a 2nd round pick in the deal as well. (Which was spent on Tatum Bell, who ironically might be the worst of the Shanahan system RBs, and even he was able to put up 2K yards, roughly 5 yds pr carry and 10 tds in his last two seasons in Denver in 05 and 06.)
The trade looks so bad in retrospect not because it was a cornerback traded for a running back, but the overall imbalance of the entire transaction. In the long run Denver has gotten a lot more playing time out of Champ Bailey than Washington got out of Clinton Portis and got a 2nd rounder to boot. Imagine how much worse Washington would look if the Broncos had been onto Michael Turner before that draft.

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please dont kid yourself and try to paint Portis as a Barry Sanders or Adrian Peterson type of guy that has NO ONE around him, no O-line and still produced...
The thing is that over the course of his career Champ Bailey has proven that he is in the same class, among cornerbacks, that Adrian Peterson and Barry Sanders are among running backs. And a lot of that has to do with staying healthy. Portis' lowest total for a full 16-game season is 1262 rushing yards. Every season that he failed to get 1000 yards, he played in less than half of Washington's games. I don't know what you're talking about when you say Portis was "surrounded by talent" for his whole career. Did you watch the Redskins in the mid '00s? Portis was Washington's entire offense. His first year there they had Patrick Ramsey and a 34 year-old Mark Brunell. The next year was Brunell's mini-resurrection + Santana Moss, and Portis had a season very similar to what Marshawn Lynch did last year. They're very similar runners when you compare their primes, but Portis was probably faster. He missed half of the next season to injury, and then it's a couple more 1200+ yard seasons with Jason Campbell struggling to make a decision in the pocket.

Portis was not surrounded by talent in Washington. They rode him right into the ground. I remember reading somewhere that Portis was the first running back in NFL history to begin his career with 4 straight seasons of over 1300 rushing yards, and three of them were over 1500. He was insanely productive when he was healthy, he ran really hard, and he was a good blocker and could catch the ball. Dan Snyder is just an idiot and gave Denver way too much for him considering the state of his team. He thought Portis could do it all, so he gave away his best cornerback and a high draft pick to get him. It was a dumb move in the long term, but it doesn't mean Portis was in any way an inferior player to Champ Bailey in 2004. If Portis had stayed healthy in 2006, 2009 and 2010 people would think a lot differently about this trade and of Portis as a player, but Washington put their entire offense on him. Champ has never been counted on to do everything at the expense of his body, so it makes perfect sense that his career lasted longer. But when healthy, I do think Portis was more valuable to his team. People are acting like no one ever stumped for Portis to win OPOTY. Portis had game-winning plays, too.

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Old 07-03-2013, 07:59 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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'many'

i'd add: i'm not suggesting portis sucked, or anything similar.

further, caulib, bailey puts his body on the line every single game. for a good 4 year period, he was the only guy on our defense who could make a tackle, and he never shied away from a single one. i'd argue strongly against the 'he wasn't asked to do everything at the expense of his body' statement.
I don't think it's really debatable that the running back position, especially when played as physically as Portis did, subjects a man to a lot more punishment than playing cornerback. Defenses keyed on on Portis, they knew he was going to be fed the ball all game, and they came flying after him. He got hit a lot. Isn't there something on nfl.com right now where he's saying he had 10 concussions over the course of his career? Now, I'm not saying Champ isn't a physical corner, just like you're not saying Portis sucked. My point was that back when the trade happened, they were basically on par with each other as players, but Portis was just worn down much more quickly because of the inherent nature of his position. Champ can still be a good tackler without his body being abused nearly as much as a running back who clearly was his team's best offensive player and regularly pushed 400 touches in a season.

The trade looks worse in retrospect because Champ is still playing at a high level and Portis has been out of the league for a couple years, and hadn't been especially effective for a few years before that. It looks like a good reason not to trade a top cornerback for a top running back - the cornerback lasts longer. But I also sort of feel like people aren't thinking about how contracts always have to be renewed, and that as nice as it's been for the Broncos to have Champ all these years, they've paid for him, too. The trade was for the rights, and at the time it was a pretty good swap. If you want to call Dan Snyder unscrupulous you're not going to have many people argue with you, but Clinton Portis was an elite player at the time of this trade. Even as recently as 7 years ago I think feature running backs were much more highly valued.

So what I'm getting at, perhaps in a convoluted way, is that if I'm 2004 Dan Snyder it's like me swapping my $30,000 BMW and a 2nd round pick for your $35,000 Monster Truck and trashing it for 5 years before it stops working. (And then trading away most of my draft this year for another high-performance dirt-burner that's going to break before its warranty because I'm Dan Snyder and I can't help myself. It's so fast.)

I didn't say Champ wasn't expected to do anything. I said everything. It's hyperbole, but Portis carried a physical load for his offense that Champ didn't have to shoulder for his defense.

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Old 07-03-2013, 08:12 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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but i'm not sure anyone would argue that portis was infinitely more effective (and would've lasted much longer) in denver's scheme than in the idiotic power running crap i seem to remember washington running.

i *do* think that the suggestion the broncos 'lost' the trade is utterly laughable, at any point since it's happened.
Yeah, I agree with all of this. The Broncos definitely didn't "lose." Mostly responding to people who are pulling the "all running backs are basically fungible" card, which is total B.S., even if they're running in the ZBS. It requires a different skillset (perhaps a generally less-coveted one considering what most teams want and what decides a player's draft stock), but it still requires a skillset. I mean, Darren McFadden sucks in it.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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I'll take Revis over Peterson straight up. It's a tough call, but I still go Revis. Revis is the best CB since Deion.

But more importantly, I can find another great RB somewhere, but the difference btw Revis and the #2 CB in the league is night and day. I can find a Shady McCoy, a Ray Rice etc at the RB position that's going to get me great production.

But Revis...there's only one Revis in the league right now.
Everything you said about Revis is also true about Peterson. He's the best back since Barry and the difference between him and a Rice, Foster or McCoy is also pretty significant.

He IS Minnesota's offense and won MVP last year for a reason. Having a back of Peterson's caliber who can score anytime from anywhere and still tote the rock 25-30 times per game is invaluable.

I'd normally agree that a good CB is more valuable than a good RB, because RB is a much easier position to fill... but Peterson ain't the norm.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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I'll take Revis over Peterson straight up. It's a tough call, but I still go Revis. Revis is the best CB since Deion.

But more importantly, I can find another great RB somewhere, but the difference btw Revis and the #2 CB in the league is night and day. I can find a Shady McCoy, a Ray Rice etc at the RB position that's going to get me great production.

But Revis...there's only one Revis in the league right now.
Would Revis help your team win games more than Adrian Peterson would though? Revis may be the best corner we've seen since Deion Sanders, but at the end of the day he's still a corner. A runningback can make up for bad quarterback play, but a corner can't don't that really. I think if Revis and Peterson switched teams, well I don't think the Vikings make the playoffs if he's healthy. As for the Jets, well I think their chances if they had Peterson this past year would be a lot better.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:55 PM    (permalink
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Would Revis help your team win games more than Adrian Peterson would though? Revis may be the best corner we've seen since Deion Sanders, but at the end of the day he's still a corner. A runningback can make up for bad quarterback play, but a corner can't.
That's the thing, you can have an all-world CB play a perfect game and shut his man down for the game, he'll take away their best WR but guess what... the offense still has other ways it will attack your defense, especially in today's league with the implement of spread offenses and 4/5 WR/TE sets. Your stud CB is doing his job, but it basically just turns into 10 on 10 and that CB has essentially become irrelevant. It's more important to have 3 or 4 good Cover men than 1 Elite CB.

On the other hand, your stud RB is going to touch the ball 25-30 times and while football is an 11 man sport... he's pretty much a threat to score 6 points anytime he gets in space.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:57 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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Would Revis help your team win games more than Adrian Peterson would though? Revis may be the best corner we've seen since Deion Sanders, but at the end of the day he's still a corner. A runningback can make up for bad quarterback play, but a corner can't don't that really. I think if Revis and Peterson switched teams, well I don't think the Vikings make the playoffs if he's healthy. As for the Jets, well I think their chances if they had Peterson this past year would be a lot better.
For me, it boils down to exactly this. And the debate is over.
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:10 AM    (permalink
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You could argue this for many teams in the league. This is irrelevant
True, but this case seems clear cut. They don't need CB help (Champ + Springs is fine) so they draft the right Rodgers (instead of Carlos), and they didn't have a back so instead of choosing another S and trusting Betts for the interim but prior to drafting Arod they'd staple down the RB spot (Betts was okay but not worth passing up the BPA in AD when their main positions were coverrred and they'd keep Pierce and Clarke if run properly).

I think it's completely relevant and it doomed that franchise for a long time. If they keep Marty and bar Ceratto from that team, there is no need for Gibbs' second stint and they're a perrenial power house out of the playoffs in the first round every year. It's quite fun to look at the affects of certain decisions for certain teams. It's not necessarily accurate but to see what could have been is amazing with 20/20 vision.
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