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Old 07-04-2013, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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For me, it boils down to exactly this. And the debate is over.
But do the Jets come within a game of a SB without Revis? That D was the main reason for their success and Revis was the catalyst for those D's and easily their best player. Revis plays an nonglorified position but I think it's the 2nd hardest position to play in all of sports (behind QB), and when people see you in your young prime as the best CB in the NFL despite some ageless lock HOFers, you're pretty special. When AD gets his team to back to back NFC Championship games, then I think its a more appropriate conversation.
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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But do the Jets come within a game of a SB without Revis?
The original statement was that if you swapped AP for Revis, the Vikings wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs, and I think it's true. It's an opinion that can't be substantiated. And the Jets probably don't come within a game of the Super Bowl without their best defensive player. But the statement was about how it would affect a team to have one or the other - I think AP got the Vikings further than having Revis would have.

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That D was the main reason for their success and Revis was the catalyst for those D's and easily their best player. Revis plays an nonglorified position but I think it's the 2nd hardest position to play in all of sports (behind QB), and when people see you in your young prime as the best CB in the NFL despite some ageless lock HOFers, you're pretty special. When AD gets his team to back to back NFC Championship games, then I think its a more appropriate conversation.
Cornerback is absolutely a glorified position. Revis is one of the most talked-about players in the league. Come off it. You can't just say Revis was an important part of getting his team to the NFC Championship but since Adrian Peterson hasn't, he's not as valuable.

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Old 07-04-2013, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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The original statement was that if you swapped AP for Revis, the Vikings wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs, and I think it's true. It's an opinion that can't be substantiated. And the Jets probably don't come within a game of the Super Bowl without their best defensive player. But the statement was about how it would affect a team to have one or the other - I think AP got the Vikings further than having Revis would have.



Cornerback is absolutely a glorified position. Revis is one of the most talked-about players in the league. Come off it. You can't just say Revis was an important part of getting his team to the NFC Championship but since Adrian Peterson hasn't, he's not as valuable.

That's not what I meant. What I intended with my post was to show that Revis was just as valuable as AD if not more so, and it wasn't as cut and dry as you made it. Just the statement made about not thinking Minn goes to the playoffs with Revis I actually agree with that, but that doesn't tell the story of which player is actually better. Simply a situational story that was very similar to the Jets playoff runs. I don't think they make it to the playoffs if they traded Revis for AD. So maybe I misunderstood what you meant. Both are great players, the best at their positions but it boils down to the value of that position and if the argument is which player is more valuable, I'd say Revis since finding an elite CB is tougher than finding an elite RB. Just my view.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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I think a 1300-1400 yard season from Tobey Gerhart and Darrelle Revis giving the Vikes short fields off turnovers would have still put Minnesota in the playoffs.

Having the best RB in the game is a luxury, there are other ways to generate yards in the run game that don't require a future HOFer at the position.

I'd rather have a decent starting RB or RB-by-committee and an elite difference maker at corner, instead of an all-world RB and nobodys playing corner.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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I'd say Revis since finding an elite CB is tougher than finding an elite RB. Just my view.
I agree finding an elite CB seems tougher than elite RB.

However, name the so-called "elite" CB's the past 10-15 years.
How many helped win, or even get to a Super Bowl?

Now, I believe it's about the same thing with "elite" RB's in that same time span. No rings.

Those are won by QB's and pass rush.

But Adrian Peterson>Darelle Revis, no question.
The great RB affects a lot more than a great cover CB. He can only cover one guy.
Peterson can get the ball 30 times a game, and even not getting the ball he can occupy the defense.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, who here has not heard of RB
Billy Sims?

6'0", 212



1980 1st overall pick by the deadbeat Lions.
Stud out of Oklahoma. He was the main reason Marcus Dupree chose OU when he was being recruited hard by everyone, Texas and OU.

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After injuries kept him out of the lineup for most of his freshman and half of his sophomore seasons (rushing for only 545 yards in two seasons plus one game of 1976), he rushed for 1,762 yards on 231 carries as a junior, an excellent average of 7.6 yards per carry. Per game, he averaged 160.1 yards and 10.9 points during the regular season. Including the postseason, Sims had 1,896 yards, a total yardage school record that stood until 2004 when freshman Adrian Peterson ran for 1,925. In 1978 Sims was awarded the Heisman Trophy, becoming only the sixth junior to do so. He was runner up the following season in 1979. BS ran for 45 touchdowns his two seasons being the main ball carrier, 78 & 79.

In 1979 against then-unbeaten Nebraska, who had the No. 1 rushing defense in the country at the time, Sims ran for 247 yards and helped the Sooners to a 17–14 win. He led the nation in rushing with 1,896 yards and had 22 touchdowns. He also became the first running back in Big 8 Conference (now merged to form the Big 12 Conference) history to rush for 200-yards in three consecutive games, and had four 200-yard games in a single season.


His first 2 years:

1980: 16 games, 313 carries, 1,303 yards, 4.2 avg, 13 TD's, 51 catches, 621 yards, 12.2 avg, 3 TD's.

1981: 14 games, 296 carries, 1,437 yards, 4.9 avg, 13 TD's, 451 yards receiving, 16.1 per catch.


RB Billy Sims, who is remembered famously four his high-stepping into the endzone, was the first overall pick in the 1980 NFL Draft after winning the Heisman Trophy as a junior (1978) at Oklahoma. He exploded onto the NFL scene to rush for 1,303 yards and 13 touchdowns as a rookie as he went on to earn NFL Rookie of the Year honors. Sims established a new Lions rookie running back rushing record that was later broken by Barry Sanders in 1989.

Behind Sims’ production in 1980, the Lions improved from 2-14 to 9-7 and finished second in the NFC Central. Sims led the Lions to two playoff appearances (1982 and 1983) and helped the Lions claim the 1983 NFC Central division title. Sims was a very creative, but strong runner who would move the pile. Sims played in three Pro Bowls (1981, 1982 and 1983) during his five NFL seasons.



He ranks second on Lions’ all-time rushing list with 5,106 yards with 1,131 attempts and 42 touchdowns. Also a receiving threat out of the backfield, he ended his career with 186 catches for 2,072 yards and 47 touchdowns.

A major knee injury in the 1984 season ended career abruptly (inside that piece of **** Metrodome turf in Minnesota, the same stadium where Nick Barnett, Will Blackmon, Mark Tauscher, Jerel Worthy also all have torn ACL's).
Sims still ranks second all-time in rushing on the team’s career rushing list with 5,106 yards and second in career rushing touchdowns with 42. Additionally, Sims is third all-time in team history with 47 total touchdowns (42 rushing and 5 receiving). Sims was the team’s offensive MVP in 1980, 1982 and 1983.



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Sims played his college career for the Oklahoma Sooners, under Barry Switzer, but missed nearly all of his first two years due to injuries. In 1978, as a junior, he rushed for 1,762 yards on 231 carries, averaging 7.6 yards per carry. Sims was awarded the Heisman Trophy that year, becoming only the sixth junior to win the prestigious award, and was runner up the next year.

Sims led the Sooners to two consecutive Orange Bowl titles in three straight appearances, scoring two touchdowns in a 31-24 win over the Nebraska Cornhuskers, and running for 164 yards while defeating the Florida State Seminoles 24-7. Sims ended his career at Oklahoma with 3,813 yards. What’s remarkable is that he put up most of those yards during his final two seasons.

The Lions made Sims the first overall pick in the 1980 NFL Draft. Sims made Pro Bowl appearances in 1980, 1981, and 1982, and led Detroit to the playoffs in 1982 and 1983 — both first round losses. In the 1983 wild card game at Candlestick Park, against the San Francisco 49ers, Sims rang up 114 yards on 20 carries; but Joe Montana led the Niners to a comeback victory when Eddie Murray missed a field goal near the end.

On November 13, 1983, during a 27-17 loss to the Saints in New Orleans, Chris Berman dubbed Sims “Kung Fu Billy Sims” when Sims, during a run, went airborne and extended his right leg to kick a would-be tackler out of his way. (SEE CLIP BELOW on YOUTUBE)
In today’s game, fines would’ve be levied and a suspension given. But that was Billy. Where Barry deked and beat tacklers with his quickness and elusiveness, Sims, when necessary, ran over them.

Sims’ career would end midway through the 1984 season, with 1,131 carries for 5,106 yards (4.5 yards per carry), and 186 receptions for 2,072 yards (11.1 yards per catch). One can only wonder what his numbers might’ve looked like had he played another five years — arguably they’d be Sanders-like.

Retirement wasn’t kind to Sims, as poor investments led to bankruptcy in 1990. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sport...0%&height=100%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Sims
After his NFL retirement, he lost millions through numerous bad business deals and risky investments. There was a dinette manufacturer, a mini-supermarket, a nightclub, a chain of eyeglass stores, a pipe-fitting company, an apartment complex, a brass company, a car parts manufacturer, a company that made adhesive sealer for car paint and a small chain of catfish restaurants. He also invested in a radio station, a dry cleaner, and a water purifying business. He filed for bankruptcy in 1990.

Following a divorce, he moved back to Norman, Oklahoma, where he worked for a time in the University of Oklahoma athletic department. He now serves as a vice-president with AmericaCan, a non-profit organization. Sims also licenses the use of his name to Billy Sims Barbecue and makes appearances for sports marketing firms.
TRUE GREATNESS snuffed short because of another muthafucking ACL injury.
I can't remember if it just planted wrong and popped, or if it was a cheap shot like what got Adrian Peterson, Carson Palmer, Tom Brady, Jordan Shipley, Marcus Lattimore, Willis McGahee, Eric Berry, Ovie Mughelli, etc.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:25 AM    (permalink
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I think a 1300-1400 yard season from Tobey Gerhart and Darrelle Revis giving the Vikes short fields off turnovers would have still put Minnesota in the playoffs.

Having the best RB in the game is a luxury, there are other ways to generate yards in the run game that don't require a future HOFer at the position.

I'd rather have a decent starting RB or RB-by-committee and an elite difference maker at corner, instead of an all-world RB and nobodys playing corner.
That's a big if, considering Gerhart hasn't even passed 1,000 yards in a season (sure he hasn't had that many carries in comparison).

Did you also forget how terrible Minnesota's passing game was? Ponder averaged 6.08 yards per pass attempt. AD averaged 6.0 yards per carry. The focus was on AD the whole time.
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Old 07-05-2013, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Moved to CB vs RB thread.

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Old 07-05-2013, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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It may not have been an injury in the NFL, but Greg Jones could have been Earl Campbell-eaque had he not hurt his knee vs. Wake Forest in 2002.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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Create a new thread about CB vs RB in general.

I'll vote: RB.

Where's the love for Billy Sims?
Anti-Lions fans? Come on now, they never done anything to hurt nobody here.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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Create a new thread about CB vs RB in general.

I'll vote: RB.

Where's the love for Billy Sims?
Anti-Lions fans? Come on now, they never done anything to hurt nobody here.
I posted a pic of Billy Sims in the thread about players you loved from other teams, and some folks thought it was Barry Sanders.

Sims might be the best RB I ever watched, along with Sanders, Dickerson, and Jackson.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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I posted a pic of Billy Sims in the thread about players you loved from other teams, and some folks thought it was Barry Sanders.

Sims might be the best RB I ever watched, along with Sanders, Dickerson, and Jackson.
I appreciate another old-school history...... what about Marcus Dupree?
I thought he was a slightly more explosive and stronger version of Eric Dickerson, before his injuries.

The Best that Never was. Sad.

Anyway, good call on Billy Sims. He was special all the way.
Damn ***** Metrodome turf.
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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Lionel "Little Train" James.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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L-Train

Had never really thought of him in this category but I can understand it. His size made it essential for him to maintain his quickness, which injuries didn't allow.

In the season following his then record-setting 1985 season he...

Had knee surgery to repair torn cartilage
Sprained the same knee
Severely sprained his ankle
Severely sprained his foot

He was never the same.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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I appreciate another old-school history...... what about Marcus Dupree?
I thought he was a slightly more explosive and stronger version of Eric Dickerson, before his injuries.

The Best that Never was. Sad.

Anyway, good call on Billy Sims. He was special all the way.
Damn ***** Metrodome turf.
That 30 for 30 was terrific and depressing at the same time. Dupree was so damn good, it's scary. How many people could have made it to the NFL like he did after taking time off and not even competing @ high competition after 1 1/2 year @ Oklahoma. So talented...
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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Lionel "Little Train" James.

10 characters
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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That 30 for 30 was terrific and depressing at the same time. Dupree was so damn good, it's scary. How many people could have made it to the NFL like he did after taking time off and not even competing @ high competition after 1 1/2 year @ Oklahoma. So talented...
Not only that but:
He suffered a severe concussion at OU against Texas, and Switzer still had him playing..... severe problem there. Concussions basically ended Troy Aikman and Steve Young's career, knocked out Justin Morneau for 2 years. Dupree's was worse.

And then.... he went to the USFL and with the New Orleans Breakers, after running out of bounds, some p*ssy DB rolled into his leg, destroying his knee and taking away a near-perfect creation of God... he was a perfect specimen for RB, except the cheap p*ssy shot into the knee. Devastating.

Such a waste of greatness.
Worse than Willis McGahee and Marcus Lattimore getting their ACL's blown up.... same really, but Dupree was a special all-time back.
****you DBs.
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:29 AM    (permalink
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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I disagree about Theismann, the guy still played 12 seasons and retired at the age of 36.
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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Sterling Sharpe. Nick Collins. Earl Campbell's career was shortened when he blew out his knee.
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Not only that but:
He suffered a severe concussion at OU against Texas, and Switzer still had him playing..... severe problem there. Concussions basically ended Troy Aikman and Steve Young's career, knocked out Justin Morneau for 2 years. Dupree's was worse.

And then.... he went to the USFL and with the New Orleans Breakers, after running out of bounds, some p*ssy DB rolled into his leg, destroying his knee and taking away a near-perfect creation of God... he was a perfect specimen for RB, except the cheap p*ssy shot into the knee. Devastating.

Such a waste of greatness.
Worse than Willis McGahee and Marcus Lattimore getting their ACL's blown up.... same really, but Dupree was a special all-time back.
****you DBs.
I watched that 30 for 30 show. It's too bad he didn't go to Texas instead of playing for that POS Switzer and OU. Would have probably had a good four-year college career.

Then, he comes out in 86, and it's Bo and Dupree at the top of the draft. Think about that. Could have been the best NFL Draft 1-2 punch ever.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:09 PM    (permalink
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:18 PM    (permalink
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Not sure if Easley really counts, though, because he destroyed his kidneys by overdosing on advil to control a swelling ankle. So it was an injury, in a sense, but more like a health thing.
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:00 AM    (permalink
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That's a good point. Curt Warner then. Another Seahawk.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 07-14-2013, 07:13 AM    (permalink
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"Greatness" might be a large overstep, but without a career-ending injury, I feel this man would perhaps be a household name...



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Old 07-14-2013, 08:05 AM    (permalink
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And since he's not... a name would be helpful, so I don't have to go through years of pro-football-reference stats looking for who wore number 49 for the 49ers.

EDIT: did it anyways. It's Jeff Fuller, who started for two full seasons alongside Ronnie Lott before suffering a career-ending spinal injury 6 games into a third.

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