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Old 07-02-2013, 11:52 AM    (permalink
MassNole
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I think the same can be said about Clinton Portis, had he not been traded from the Broncos.

Watching Portis as a Bronco was amazing. It really was. I can't help but wonder what kind of stats he'd have put up if he hadn't been traded.

The guy had back to back 1500 yard seasons with 14-15 rushing tds, 1800-1900 yards from scrimmage.

In his first two seasons he put up 3099 yards, 29 rushing tds, 678 receiving yards and 2 receiving tds. That's very impressive stats.

I know Champ has had a great career as a Bronco and was needed badly, and is still there, but I still question the move to trade Portis
A shutdown CB is much more valuable than a stud RB, especially for Mike Shanahan.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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A shutdown CB is much more valuable than a stud RB, especially for Mike Shanahan.
I understand the value, but Shanahan never put the pieces around Bailey on defense to make it really matter that much. I think the Broncos would have won more games if they had kept Portis.

You can place the value of a RB less than the CB, but in the end, the one that wins you more games matters more to me. And in my opinion, that would have been Portis.
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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With the exception of Deion Sanders bouncing back & forth between San Fran & Dallas, name an elite CB who led a team to a Super Bowl?

Revis?
Champ?

Portis was sensational, although as usual, the RB durability is a lot less than the CB.

Portis was phenomenal. A great draft pick by the Broncs. They should have kept him.

The Giants have shown that the key to good pass defense is the pass rush, not the CB.

RB>CB.
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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They didn't lose a beat in the run game when they let go of Portis. They had similar production while also doubling up and getting a shut down borderline HOF CB.

A CB who's still on the team while Portis' career was over what, 4 years ago? They absolutely stole Champ Bailey.

One is a borderline HOF CB the other was a good RB who played 4 less seasons. It's not a debate for me honestly, I trade Portis for Champ 11 out of 10 times.
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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They didn't lose a beat in the run game when they let go of Portis. They had similar production while also doubling up and getting a shut down borderline HOF CB.

A CB who's still on the team while Portis' career was over what, 4 years ago? They absolutely stole Champ Bailey.

One is a borderline HOF CB the other was a good RB who played 4 less seasons. It's not a debate for me honestly, I trade Portis for Champ 11 out of 10 times.
This.

The fact JMikes just said RB>CB is sad. Shanny can take late-rounders/UDFAs and have massive success. His system flat-out doesn't require top tier talent at the position. Running backs as a whole are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH less valuable compared to an elite CB. Granted there are exceptions to every rule.
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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I'd much rather have Adrian Peterson than Darrelle Revis. Is that sad?
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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Statistically they may not have missed much of a beat, although none of them put up Portis' numbers.

But nobody had Portis' big-play ability to hit a td on any given play.

I bring it back to winning games, and Champ didn't win games for Shanahan.

ALSO: I'm doing this from Shanahans perspective. In hindsight, Champ has played so long, but I wasn't a fan of the trade then and still am not today.
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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I'd much rather have Adrian Peterson than Darrelle Revis. Is that sad?
I don't think so, RBs more directly influence the outcome of games that CBs do.
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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I'll take Revis over Peterson straight up. It's a tough call, but I still go Revis. Revis is the best CB since Deion.

But more importantly, I can find another great RB somewhere, but the difference btw Revis and the #2 CB in the league is night and day. I can find a Shady McCoy, a Ray Rice etc at the RB position that's going to get me great production.

But Revis...there's only one Revis in the league right now.
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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And I say this as respectfully as I can:

Adrian Peterson sucks in pass protection and catching the ball. He's just so damn unbelievable at running that we ignore these flaws in his game, but these flaws do hinder the overall offense to a degree.
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Old 07-02-2013, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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With the exception of Deion Sanders bouncing back & forth between San Fran & Dallas, name an elite CB who led a team to a Super Bowl?

Revis?
Champ?

Portis was sensational, although as usual, the RB durability is a lot less than the CB.

Portis was phenomenal. A great draft pick by the Broncs. They should have kept him.

The Giants have shown that the key to good pass defense is the pass rush, not the CB.

RB>CB.
In 2004, Reuben Droughns ran for 1,240 yards and 6 TDs, with Tatum Bell and Quentin Griffin putting up 396 and 311 yards respectively with a combined 5 TDs. Overall Denver lost 300 yards of rushing offense but from 2003 to 2004 put up an additional 1,000 yards of passing and finished with 10-6 records each year. So well there was a small down tick in rushing yards, overall the offense improved.

There is no way anyone can say Denver lost out on that deal, if anything Denver got far, far more value.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Champ is considerably more valuable. There really isn't a debate in that trade when you add in Shannys ability to find runners for his system. Yes they weren't as good as Portis but as a group their production was still excellent. Champ is a HoF CB and has been one of the best for a long long time. He should have won that DPotY over Jason Taylor. He had 10 INTs with 5 of those in the redzone and gave up 0 TDs that year. Denver got a HoF corner and a 2nd rounder for Portis, who was replaceable in this system. Denver won the trade.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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I'll take Revis over Peterson straight up. It's a tough call, but I still go Revis. Revis is the best CB since Deion.

But more importantly, I can find another great RB somewhere, but the difference btw Revis and the #2 CB in the league is night and day. I can find a Shady McCoy, a Ray Rice etc at the RB position that's going to get me great production.

But Revis...there's only one Revis in the league right now.
So far Ted Thompson can't. Send your resume to Green Bay.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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So far Ted Thompson can't. Send your resume to Green Bay.
Every team has that one position that they just can't get right. For us it's linebacker. It amazes me though that Thompson can't find a player in the easiest position to draft talent.
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Statistically they may not have missed much of a beat, although none of them put up Portis' numbers.

But nobody had Portis' big-play ability to hit a td on any given play.

I bring it back to winning games, and Champ didn't win games for Shanahan.

ALSO: I'm doing this from Shanahans perspective. In hindsight, Champ has played so long, but I wasn't a fan of the trade then and still am not today.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...reg&id=2719797

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...not-even-close

In one of the best seasons ever for a defensive back(2006) champ had 10 INT's I remember reading that 9 of them occured in the redzone meaning that he directly stopped 9 scoring drives.. As stated before under Shanny the Broncos could plug in Fullbacks and have them explode in the system. Look at Alfred Morris currently with Shanny, i mean plain and simple an elite CB v. an elite HB usually is a clear cut choice and then throw in the fact that Shanny had history of being able to get production out of almost anyone it was a no brain trade straight up but we also got a 2nd round pick to even make it that much sweeter.
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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How did Champ not win games for the Broncos and somehow Portis did?

Neither player solely won games by themselves.
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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I don't think anyone remembers how truly dominant Portis was in his early career. In his 2nd season, he ran for nearly 1600 yards in 13 games.

In his last 6 games as a Bronco, he ran for 909 yards and 10 touchdowns,

In hindsight, Champ has played a longer career. There's no debate to that.

To me, Portis carried the offense and made it explosive. He won games for them.

Champ Bailey slowed down offenses, but if he's got his man blanketed they throw to someone else.

Shanahan largely did the trade to slow down the offenses he faced in the playoffs, namely the Colts.

But even with Champ, they still got blown out by the Colts in the playoffs.

I fail to find that a CB wins more games than a RB. I'd argue the opposite.

There may only be one Revis in the NFL at this moment, but that still doesn't mean he's more valuable than a RB.
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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I don't think anyone remembers how truly dominant Portis was in his early career. In his 2nd season, he ran for nearly 1600 yards in 13 games.

In his last 6 games as a Bronco, he ran for 909 yards and 10 touchdowns,

In hindsight, Champ has played a longer career. There's no debate to that.

To me, Portis carried the offense and made it explosive. He won games for them.

Champ Bailey slowed down offenses, but if he's got his man blanketed they throw to someone else.

Shanahan largely did the trade to slow down the offenses he faced in the playoffs, namely the Colts.

But even with Champ, they still got blown out by the Colts in the playoffs.

I fail to find that a CB wins more games than a RB. I'd argue the opposite.

There may only be one Revis in the NFL at this moment, but that still doesn't mean he's more valuable than a RB.

You are correct Portis in his 1st two years was a homerun threat, he was exciting he was electric... But you are not looking at Pre and Post portis, the Broncos pre Portis had Mike Anderson that won ROY and put up 1500 yards, 15 tds and a 5.0 yard per carry.Post Portis they had Drounghs (who was a FB) put up 1200 yards.

The value of a true shutdown corner is often overlooked because just like you stated if they shutdown a WR the offense can just throw to someone else, but that is the value of an elite CB you dont need to give them saftey help, they take the bext WR(Randy Moss, Andre Johnson etc....) out of the game and you have to go other places..
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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I understand the pre-Portis and post Portis discussion. But they weren't the playmakers that Portis was.

I may not be truly looking at the value of a #1 CB, but many aren't looking at the value of Clinton Portis. The value wasn't only in the yards and other statistics. It was in the value he could come out of the backfield catch an easy pass and run 66 yards for a td. It was the fact on any play he could go 60 yards for a td.

He changed how defenses looked at the Broncos offense, and that's what made him more valuable than Anderson, Gary, Droughns, Bell etc.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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Denver saw their total offense increase by 700 yards after the trade.
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:01 PM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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Originally Posted by MassNole View Post
Denver saw their total offense increase by 700 yards after the trade.
and your point is?

The starting QB missed 5 games. The defense gave up less yards in 03, had the same amount of turnovers, same amount of Td passes allowed.

Stat-wise, the team was very similar from 03 to 04
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:28 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
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Originally Posted by Trogdor View Post
This.

The fact JMikes just said RB>CB is sad. Shanny can take late-rounders/UDFAs and have massive success. His system flat-out doesn't require top tier talent at the position. Running backs as a whole are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH less valuable compared to an elite CB. Granted there are exceptions to every rule.
Positional value outside of QB is essentially a myth. Coaches scheme around their best players, and give them the largest roles regardless of their positions. a RB who gets 400 touches a season, and who competently contributes in multiple areas like a Rice, Jones-Drew, or a McCoy is every bit as valuable on gamedays as a Revis. The major problem is their shelf lives are much shorter, which makes investing in them a more risky proposition.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:04 PM    (permalink
7DnBrnc53
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1. RB Larry Stegent, the eighth overall pick in the 1970 draft by the Cardinals out of Texas A&M, would have been a good one if he didn't hurt his knee his rookie year:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Stegent

2. In 1975, the Broncos drafted a defensive end out of North Carolina Central by the name of Charles Smith. He was a beast in camp. In 1998, Pro Football Weekly mentioned him in their draft "what ifs" segment of their draft preview issue. Injuries prevented him from ever playing with the Broncos.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by mightytitan9 View Post
I don't think so, RBs more directly influence the outcome of games that CBs do.
Without a doubt.
And I still don't think RBs should be taken in Rd 1 usually......
But a great RB can make a much bigger impact than a great CB.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:47 PM    (permalink
zachsaints52
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Honestly, I wouldnt say "greatness", but LeCharles Bentley going to the Browns and getting staph infection ruined what I think wouldve been a very very solid career. Dude was a beast for the Saints, pro bowler at two positions.
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