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Old 05-31-2013, 10:04 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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I think statistics of quarterbacks has a lot to do with scheme and personnel around them. It's not a fair comparison to view them in black and white based on that.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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I will never say someone is the best but you can easily say that Rodgers is arguably the best QB in the league right now. But you can easily make the case for any of the top four with Brees maybe having the weakest bid.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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I think statistics of quarterbacks has a lot to do with scheme and personnel around them. It's not a fair comparison to view them in black and white based on that.
Fair and play calling too But he is a QB that raises the game of the people around him. The truth is that he does MORE in less passing attempts. That alone is crazy. Drew Brees needs a million attempts to rack up his yards, and TDs. This guy does it in much less. He is effective and efficient. He can make all the throws and has the speed to get yards as well.

To me, it's easy, AR is the best QB until a QB can consistent do better. If Brady has won another SB or 2, I think by SB sure. I think Brady will always be the popular pick in some peoples minds because of the SBs. And sure that's a very, very good thing. I think that makes him number 2 and is a lock there. If brady can out produce AR and maybe even get another SB I think he reclaims his throne.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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I think it's unfair to say Brady is considered the best only bc of his SB record. You want to talk about making those around you better? Look no further than Tom Brady.

He's only had 2 WRs his whole career worth a damn in Moss and Welker and had the greatest offense of all time when he had both of them (yes I'm aware that he had some decent WRs during his SB runs, but none of them were even PBers or should be considered PBers for that matter). He's routinely made WRs better around him, he's routinely had a high degree of success with different weapons, different offenses, different playcallers etc.

The components around Brady have changed mightily over the course of his career but what hasn't changed is the offensive output. He's incredibly efficient and hands down the best at making those around him better.

They changed the offense completely midseason on him in 2010 and look what he did.

The guy right now has 2 TEs and that's about it. And he'll still put up great numbers next year.

No current qb in the league has done more with less than Tom Brady.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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I think it's unfair to say Brady is considered the best only bc of his SB record. You want to talk about making those around you better? Look no further than Tom Brady.

He's only had 2 WRs his whole career worth a damn in Moss and Welker and had the greatest offense of all time when he had both of them (yes I'm aware that he had some decent WRs during his SB runs, but none of them were even PBers or should be considered PBers for that matter). He's routinely made WRs better around him, he's routinely had a high degree of success with different weapons, different offenses, different playcallers etc.

The components around Brady have changed mightily over the course of his career but what hasn't changed is the offensive output. He's incredibly efficient and hands down the best at making those around him better.

They changed the offense completely midseason on him in 2010 and look what he did.

The guy right now has 2 TEs and that's about it. And he'll still put up great numbers next year.

No current qb in the league has done more with less than Tom Brady.

Serious question here... If you took Brady out of New England how do you think he fares? If you put him in Chicago or San Diego is he still considered one of if not the best QB of all time?

Now don't get me wrong by no means am I calling a system QB. I am saying he is a great QB aided by his system.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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Serious question here... If you took Brady out of New England how do you think he fares? If you put him in Chicago or San Diego is he still considered one of if not the best QB of all time?

Now don't get me wrong by no means am I calling a system QB. I am saying he is a great QB aided by his system.
You can say that about everyone. Almost every QB is a system QB. That's way comparing QBs is like comparing apples to oranges. Sure, they play the same position so it's tempting to compare but they all are in different systems, with different personnel, and different play calling.

You can say that about almost any QB. What if Peyton played for another team with a weak OL. What if Cutler played for a team with a better ol? Would he fair better? What if Big Ben or another QB played in our Giants system, and Eli played in a less complex system?

You can do that for everyone.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:27 AM    (permalink
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I mean I think he answered that question with the whole "played in multiple systems" argument. That question is probably far more pertinent to impose upon Rodgers career than Brady's.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:28 AM    (permalink
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You can but I think some people it effects more than others. I was trying to avoid talent around Brady in the discussion and just stick to the system but I realize a vacuum is impossible to ask for.

In fairness though I think Rodgers is in a similar situation and if I had to say it even though it pains me greatly I would have to put Peyton #1 of the group. Maybe not last year or going forward but overall as he is just a different animal.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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Brady is and Peyton are 2 a. and 2b. not in any order. But it's AR for me. The thing that makes him stand out is his limited number of passing attempts every season and still puts up mind numbing numbers. He doesn't need 29891283918932 pass attempts per season to trick fans into thinking he is better than he should be in their minds. AR is the real deal and gets his without needing a boat load of pass attempts. The things he does makes him the best QB in the NFL. If there is a knock it's get his playoff record better.
You do realize Manning and Brady pretty much are on par with pass attempts with Rodgers, right? Look at last year, Manning had 31 more attempts than Rodgers, which equates to a whopping 2 more attempts a game. Wow...
Brady has chucked it more recently, but thats their offensive gameplan.
The pass attempts argument is ridiculous.

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Serious question here... If you took Brady out of New England how do you think he fares? If you put him in Chicago or San Diego is he still considered one of if not the best QB of all time?

Now don't get me wrong by no means am I calling a system QB. I am saying he is a great QB aided by his system.
Was Montana a system QB? Young? I know a lot of people say if you put Elway on the 49ers in the '80's they would've won a lot more Super Bowls.
The thing is, teams build their gameplan/system around the QB. So of course it looks like a system. I'd argue though that Manning is right up there because of what he ended up doing in Denver.

And Rodgers is not a HOF QB right now I'd say due to longevity. Give him a couple more years and yeah, he will be.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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Serious question here... If you took Brady out of New England how do you think he fares? If you put him in Chicago or San Diego is he still considered one of if not the best QB of all time?

Now don't get me wrong by no means am I calling a system QB. I am saying he is a great QB aided by his system.
Yeah I think he's just as good. Absolutely. Bc the whole "Brady is a system qb" thing is nonsense.

Bc the system has changed frequently yet he's doing just fine. The system under Weis, O'Brien, and McDaniel are all different yet Brady thrived in all of them.

Brady is not a system qb.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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You do realize Manning and Brady pretty much are on par with pass attempts with Rodgers, right? Look at last year, Manning had 31 more attempts than Rodgers, which equates to a whopping 2 more attempts a game. Wow...
Brady has chucked it more recently, but thats their offensive gameplan.
The pass attempts argument is ridiculous.



Was Montana a system QB? Young? I know a lot of people say if you put Elway on the 49ers in the '80's they would've won a lot more Super Bowls.
The thing is, teams build their gameplan/system around the QB. So of course it looks like a system. I'd argue though that Manning is right up there because of what he ended up doing in Denver.

And Rodgers is not a HOF QB right now I'd say due to longevity. Give him a couple more years and yeah, he will be.
As a gut reaction, I'd actually be inclined to say yes. I think we could put Ken Anderson in with them.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Montana is not a system qb either. He did just fine in KC.

The system should not be viewed in a vaccuum. Bc football is a week by week gameplan. The system's strategy can change depending on the matchup.

I've seen Montana go vertical plenty during his career. He was not bound by a system. He just played a particular system better than any qb in NFL history.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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You do realize Manning and Brady pretty much are on par with pass attempts with Rodgers, right? Look at last year, Manning had 31 more attempts than Rodgers, which equates to a whopping 2 more attempts a game. Wow...
Brady has chucked it more recently, but thats their offensive gameplan.
The pass attempts argument is ridiculous.


637 to 552 to for Brady and AR. And no it isn't crazy. You have more chances to pass the ball you are going to get your numbers. Just look at Drew Brees and the effect it has on his bottom line. Look at Brett F's career. You have more chances to pass you are going to have more TDs, more ints, more completions, more interceptions and so on. That pretty much highlights Brett F's career. He owns every single record and that stems from the fact he has more passing attempts than anyone in NFL history. So what's going to happen? He owns every record based off of that. That's why I never thought much of him as a player.

Look at how well AR has done with limited passing attempts.


552, 502 and then 475 passing attempts. Those numbers in this "passing" era aren't high at all. In the mean time, he is doing an amazing job winning awards, super bowls, and producing with those attempts. That's amazing!




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Was Montana a system QB? Young? I know a lot of people say if you put Elway on the 49ers in the '80's they would've won a lot more Super Bowls.
The thing is, teams build their gameplan/system around the QB. So of course it looks like a system. I'd argue though that Manning is right up there because of what he ended up doing in Denver.

And Rodgers is not a HOF QB right now I'd say due to longevity. Give him a couple more years and yeah, he will be.



I agree longevity is the only issue remaining. Same issue with T Davis the Denver RB. Great numbers but got hurt. I expect AR to play a long time unless he gets hurt which career threatening, which can happen with the way he gets hit around.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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I don't want to say that Anderson, Montana, and Young were system QBs because there's a stigma attached to that phrase. They all surpassed the minimum athletic requirements for their position and they all processed information quickly (which is, IMO, the most mission-critical skill for a QB), and they all had huge success. Walsh probably deserves a lot of credit for his ability to scout the position.

But I do think that they benefited from their system more than any QB since Otto Graham. Maybe Young benefited to a somewhat lesser extent. Anderson and Montana were driving a Caddy while everybody else was still in a Model-T.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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Serious question here... If you took Brady out of New England how do you think he fares? If you put him in Chicago or San Diego is he still considered one of if not the best QB of all time?

Now don't get me wrong by no means am I calling a system QB. I am saying he is a great QB aided by his system.
But that is true with all QBs take Rodgers out of Green Bay and put him in San Diego or Buffalo and his production takes a huge drop too.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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How are the stats I showed misleading and yes I watched both games. He would never have won if his receivers bailed him out with incredible catches.
Because those stats aren't phenomenal when Eli's play was, he made amazing plays and fantastic throws that gave his receivers, and only his receivers, a chance to make a fantastic play on the ball. Eli played about as awesome as a QB could be in a SB.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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But that is true with all QBs take Rodgers out of Green Bay and put him in San Diego or Buffalo and his production takes a huge drop too.
I did say I think Rodgers is in a similar boat. Although I do think Rodgers could potentially do better in some situations due to his athleticism but that isn't really what the discussion is about.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Rodgers has also played in the same system while Brady's has changed several times under several coordinators. So I'm not really sure how Rodgers is in a similar situation than what Brady is in, when actually Rodgers career is closer to your original criticism of Brady than Brady's is.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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As long as we're spending the offseason bickering about QB rankings, I feel like Stafford isn't ranked high enough. The guy doesn't always pass the eyeball test, but he has thrown for 10,000 yards over the past two seasons.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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As long as we're spending the offseason bickering about QB rankings, I feel like Stafford isn't ranked high enough. The guy doesn't always pass the eyeball test, but he has thrown for 10,000 yards over the past two seasons.
Well the eyeball test is probably a lot more accurate than just looking at his throwing yards. He's setting records for passing attempts and he's throwing to Calvin Johnson. I'd be concerned if he wasn't throwing for a misleading amount of yards.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Stafford needs to do a better job of making his progressions. That's his issue right now.

And mechanics. I understand he has a cannon so he doesn't need great mechanics, but he can be more accurate with better footwork.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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As long as we're spending the offseason bickering about QB rankings, I feel like Stafford isn't ranked high enough. The guy doesn't always pass the eyeball test, but he has thrown for 10,000 yards over the past two seasons.
He nearly has 1400 pass attempts over the last two seasons too.

I am not a fan of Stafford's. I feel he's always been overrated because of his big arm. This past season his mechanics got sloppy and it contributed to his inconsistency.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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I think people are viewing the phrase 'system QB' in the wrong context.
In the NFL all QBs play within an OC's offensive system, so all QBs are 'system QBs'.
However playing in a particular offensive scheme doesn't mean a QB is a PRODUCT of that system. Good QBs excel because they're good. Not solely because of the system they're playing in.

Calling an NFL QB a 'system QB' doesn't mean the same as calling a pro prospect coming out of college a 'system QB'.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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Rodgers has also played in the same system while Brady's has changed several times under several coordinators. So I'm not really sure how Rodgers is in a similar situation than what Brady is in, when actually Rodgers career is closer to your original criticism of Brady than Brady's is.
Fair point... I guess I was more talking about being a great QB and being aided by a system. Although I will say I don't know the Patriots, don't watch them but from a complete outsider perspective it seems like even despite the different coordinators there wasn't a huge difference. Again completely ignorant here.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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He nearly has 1400 pass attempts over the last two seasons too.

I am not a fan of Stafford's. I feel he's always been overrated because of his big arm. This past season his mechanics got sloppy and it contributed to his inconsistency.
I had to look up that number because I thought there's no way that stat was close to accurate. It was.

How the hell did Stafford have over 700 attempts last season and only throw for 20 TDs?? That's terrible.

Still like him though.
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