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Old 05-16-2013, 03:41 PM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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Another thing is the HOF has become lenient in the sense that it elects alot of people that shouldnt be in there.

In my mind to be a HOFer you need to have been the best or right up there with the best in your position while you laced them up.


Minus the rings, Eli nor Big Ben have ever been the best at anytime they have been in the NFL, maybe not even top 5.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:45 PM    (permalink
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Eli Manning has been the best crunch time, late game and big moment QB in the league since he became a starter. Only QBs who've compared to Eli in that respect have been Big Ben, and Tom Brady until recent years. That's why en route to their SB rings both Eli and Big Ben have out played the best QBs of their generation in the biggest moments to bring their franchises multiple rings.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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I am sure there are a bunch of QBs in the HOF that fit that parameter. The beauty is the goal is to win SBs. That's the goal, and so that means it opens up the HOF room for guys who just win. They win when it matters the most. They may not get MVPs or individual accolades but when it matters most they come through.

I'd rather have that then the MVP type.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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Only 2 time SB winner who hasn't is Plunkett. Do you think Eli and Big Ben are better than Plunkett? That's the only multiple SB winner who isn't in the HOF.
I said they'll get in, but my standards for the HOF are higher than the people voting. I'd have it reserved for elite players only. Ben and Eli aren't elite QB's.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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I said they'll get in, but my standards for the HOF are higher than the people voting. I'd have it reserved for elite players only. Ben and Eli aren't elite QB's.
The fact that you're trying to defend your moronic statement makes it no less moronic. Ben and Eli have absolutely been elite QBs.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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The fact that you're trying to defend your moronic statement makes it no less moronic. Ben and Eli have absolutely been elite QBs.
my opinion of what the HOF should be about is moronic? that makes sense.

ben and eli aren't elite QB's if you actually look up the definition of 'elite'.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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I said they'll get in, but my standards for the HOF are higher than the people voting. I'd have it reserved for elite players only. Ben and Eli aren't elite QB's.
If you can do what both Qbs do when it matters the most that's elite. So you don't get the MVP honors or through for 5000 TDs in a season. I am fine with not having that. Just get the team to the promise land and win. It's not like we needed a HOF kicker to kick game winning Fgs to win the SB. Both QBs when the game was on the line did what elite QBs do. They brought their teams down the field and won it. That's elite. That's what you want from a QB, especially if he is the first overall pick.

However, I can understand your point. There a lot of people who hold stats and individual awards at a high level as well. I just want the QB to win. Win when you're teams needs you to win on the biggest stage.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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I said they'll get in, but my standards for the HOF are higher than the people voting. I'd have it reserved for elite players only. Ben and Eli aren't elite QB's.
Exactly.... obviously winning the SB is great, and what everone wants.


But at the end of the day Kevin Faulk has 3 super bowls does that mean he is better than say Adrian Peterson, Barry Sanders?


Then answer 10 out of 10 times is NO... the rings are important but you should actually be required to be an elite player also to wear the gold jacket and have a bust in Canton... Neither Eli nor Big Ben have been top 5 elite players at their position... Thats not to say they are not good or that they have helped their teams win super bowls, but the HOF is/should be a place to immortalize the best to ever play the game
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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And to acknowledge the posters saying all they do is win, that is the most important thing... blah blah blah... dont act like it was a john elway type will, that carried terrible teams all the way to the SB(which elway did 3 times in the 80's)

Both the Giants and Steelers had very good/elite defenses
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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Trying to argue that a criteria for comparing other positions negates the value of using that criteria to compare QBs in a QB centric sport like football is also dumb.

They're not elite because they have rings, they have rings because they played elite to get them.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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And to acknowledge the posters saying all they do is win, that is the most important thing... blah blah blah... dont act like it was a john elway type will, that carried terrible teams all the way to the SB(which elway did 3 times in the 80's)

Both the Giants and Steelers had very good/elite defenses
Do we stop considering Tom Brady a winner since he rode even better defenses to his rings?
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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How ever you cut the cake... you cant sit here and tell me Eli Manning or Big Ben are better than Aaron Rodgers or Peyton Manning


But some how I feel like you will mention they have more super bowls, or something of that nature...

But i guarantee every GM that has ever been in charge of running a team would take Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers in a draft over Big Ben or Eli 10 out of 10 times if they could.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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Do we stop considering Tom Brady a winner since he rode even better defenses to his rings?
or we can start judging QB's on how they actually play football? that would be nice.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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Do we stop considering Tom Brady a winner since he rode even better defenses to his rings?
So now you are trying to down play Tom Brady.... on that note was Elway not that good because he needed TD to win 2 SBs?
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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or we can start judging QB's on how they actually play football? that would be nice.
SuperPacker and I are eye to eye on this issue...

Eli and Big Ben might have more rings, but they have also been on great teams...

Looking further into that neither have actually been consensus top 5 at their position let alone the best at anytime during their career...

there were times Eli was often heavily criticized because of his decision making and INTs..That sure screams elite...

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Old 05-16-2013, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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How ever you cut the cake... you cant sit here and tell me Eli Manning or Big Ben are better than Aaron Rodgers or Peyton Manning


But some how I feel like you will mention they have more super bowls, or something of that nature...

But i guarantee every GM that has ever been in charge of running a team would take Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers in a draft over Big Ben or Eli 10 out of 10 times if they could.
No not all. You're right, but I will say this, I would take Eli in the playoffs. I have no issue with him at all in the playoffs. Do I really want MVPs and stuff like that? It's nice to have, but I don't really care if Eli gets it or not.

I am not sure how Steelers fans feel. At the end of the day, specific to Eli, even fans of our fan base, or some of them, will appreciate him more after he hangs it up.

By then, barring injury, he will be top 10 in yards, and TDs. And if he wins more SBs, that would obviously great, but Eli will be right up there as a highly productive QB at the end of his career with HOF numbers.

In the end that's a certainty. So as a Giants fan, I feel very comfortable with that.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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the rings argument is just the most stupid thing ever. its completely circumstantial. you're judging qb's on things that are totally out of their control. it makes zero sense at all. unfortunately its the only argument giants fans have for eli being an elite QB.

eli could win 5 super bowls but in a parallel universe he could win none because on the last play of each of the 5 games lawrence tynes misses the game winning field goal.

so eli goes from elite, HOF, GOAT candidate to small time player who cant do it in the big moment, because of 5 missed kicks from the giants kicker?

someone explain to me how that makes any sense.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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Again everyone plays the game to win a SB... and you being a fan of the Giants or anyone being a fan of a specific team for that matter appreciates the SB wins and that is what you hope for as a fan, no one wants to be 0-16.

No one that is a fan of a TEAM, will say "hey as long as Player X is the MVP and the best to play his position this year ..then thats a good year" I guarantee that every colts fan and even Peyton Manning himself would give all the MVPs back if they meant SB wins...but that doesnt take away from the fact that he was still an ELITE player.

Just because the Giants, or whatever team that was good enough as a WHOLE to win the SB that year give merit to say that their QB was Elite... the team was elite(Look at Dilfer on the Ravens) you actually have to be a good QB and be part of a good team to win it... Brady and Manning have lost SBs but that doesnt take away from them beiing ELITE... it means the Pats/Colts were not the better team as a whole that game.


So im sure you are happy with Eli..since being drafted the Giants have won 2 super bowls, that doesnt mean he has been elite...THAT IS ALL IM TRYING TO SAY...

i would be happy if a bum on the side of the street played QB for the broncos and the team won a SB, but i wouldnt start to argue him being elite

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Old 05-16-2013, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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Rings and his stats will put him in. I don't know what else you need? MVP? Those are nice to have but not needed. So you're talking about the championship game. So should he have to kick his own FGs too? Against you guys in 2007, Eli drove the team down only for the fool to miss it a bunch of times. SF game, we took it to over time, and once we got to the SB good things happen.

What else is expected? At the end of his career he will be ranked among the best stats wise and have 2 SB in bag if not more in a time frame of 5-7 years, if he stays healthy.

I really don't know what else people want. In this sport, the ring argument, right or wrong, gets you in the conversation right away. It's everything in this sport when it comes to HOF. It got Troy Aikman in. That's why you play. Now, is that the only way you get in? No, of course not, you can be a stat guy, who compiles stats and get in that way. You can be player who gets both. Win 1 SB, and compile insane stats. That gets you in as well.

There are many ways to get in. That's one of them. I don't see how someone can make the HOF and not be elite. The HOF is fraternity for the elite. It would assinine if someone makes it and not be considered elite.

In the end it's just semantics.

Let me ask you this, what is the definition of elite then?
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:34 PM    (permalink
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Let me ask you this, what is the definition of elite then?
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A group of people considered to be the best in a particular category
So you work out which players are in the 'best' group.

Tier 1
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees

Tier 2
Eli Manning

He isn't in the same group as those guys and that isn't really very debatable. He just isn't in the same class as them. They are in the elite class and Eli isn't in it with them. I just assumed that meant he isn't elite.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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So you work out which players are in the 'best' group.

Tier 1
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees

Tier 2
Eli Manning

He isn't in the same group as those guys and that isn't really very debatable. He just isn't in the same class as them. They are in the elite class and Eli isn't in it with them. I just assumed that meant he isn't elite.


But what parameters dictate that? SB wins? Come back wins? Ability to be clutch when you're team needs it? Wins? TDs? Yards? All of the above? What is the common criteria needed in your opinion?

I personally think outside of individual awards he has the components of being elite. Listen, at the end of the day, he is a polarizing subject. You are going to have people who share your opinion. And you will have those that share mine.

If it came down to what do you want elite status or HOF status, I am going for the HOF, which was the thesis of my thread. The current HOFers still playing. Elite or not elite, I think he is elite for the reasons I have stated. At the end of the day, I want him to be a HOFer. If he is a QB who is NOT elite, but a HOFer, then fine. That would be amusing to be in it's own right, but HOF is the most important part, hence the thread, even though I meant it as a general question for current QBs.

Anyhow, off to work out. Thank you for the nice debate. You two are mature posters who are an asset to the MB. So thanks again. Plus rep for you both!
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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or we can start judging QB's on how they actually play football? that would be nice.
It would, but people seem to have such a tough time accepting that Eli and Big Ben played elite football to bring their teams rings and that they played as good during those playoff runs as any of the other "elite" QBs did during theirs.

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So now you are trying to down play Tom Brady.... on that note was Elway not that good because he needed TD to win 2 SBs?
You tell me, it's your argument.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:46 PM    (permalink
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But what parameters dictate that? SB wins? Come back wins? Ability to be clutch when you're team needs it? Wins? TDs? Yards? All of the above? What is the common criteria needed in your opinion?
completely forget wins, rings, TD's or yards. stats are irrelevant.

you look at how good of a QB they are. throwing the football, that kind of stuff...
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees are all locks in my opinion.

Big Ben and Eli have a shot, but need some really superb 4-5 years to end their careers.

Let's not forget, Rodgers and Brees have two of the probably top 5, very worst top 10 individual passing seasons in NFL history. Both have a ring. Combined with several other outstanding years, I can't see how they'd be left out.
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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It would, but people seem to have such a tough time accepting that Eli and Big Ben played elite football to bring their teams rings and that they played as good during those playoff runs as any of the other "elite" QBs did during theirs.
you're mistaking 'good' with 'elite'. an elite performance in the playoffs is something like aaron rodgers vs atlanta in 2010. he may have played as good as other guys in their super bowl runs, but that doesn't make him as good as them overall.

if the giants had lost both of those games against the giants but not because of eli, what would your argument be for calling eli and elite qb? there is none.

playing well in the playoffs doesn't automatically make you an elite qb.
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