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Old 02-08-2014, 04:41 PM    (permalink
E_Bird
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Originally Posted by Camp Arm View Post
They were both pressure's up the middle from the defensive tackles, it's clear to see. He avoided the rush and used the rest of the pocket to make a play. Manziel's pocket didn't crumble in that clip he bailed too quickly and ran to his blind with no idea what was happening there. All Manziel had to do was move to the right like Bridgewater did not turn is back to the defense. If you think that is good pocket presence i don't know what to tell you.

And who told you that you have to make plays outside the pocket to raise a teams level? Never heard that before. A QB can raise his teams level playing exclusively from the pocket if he is good enough.

And you have absolutely no way to prove whether bridgewater would have or not have been competitive against those teams so it's a mute point and it simply doesn't matter projecting them to the NFL. You are evaluating what skills project to the NFL not who it came against. If you are talking about a heismen trophy it would be relevant. It didn't matter who he was playing against those skills translate, you would have a point if he was standing in a clean pocket for 10 seconds then throwing the ball.

I'll say it again Manziel scrambling to buy time is not pocket presence when he runs out of clean pockets. That is scrambling and it's different.

You have brought up Rodgers twice for some reason when Bridgewater resembles him alot more than Manziel does. Rodgers does not bail on clean pocket's, he may hold the ball longer but he rarely scrambles around while doing it.
I said you had to make the play outside the play - not outside the pocket.

On that play, he escaped to his left, because the pressure was coming to his right; if he tried to step up to his right, he'd have been in the lap of 4 defenders. Ideally, he'd fit through the crease on the left, but he had a lot of ground to cover. I'm not arguing that it was a good play on his part. It was one of his two or three bad plays of the game.

We're obviously disagreeing about how a QB should operate within the pocket. I'll agree to disagree on this subject.

I'm a big Bill Walsh fan. Whenever I look at a player, I have his standards of evaluation in mind. That's not to say I follow them like absolute truth, but I have them in mind. His take on the QB position is - in my opinion - perfect. The traits he leads with are instinct and intuition:

http://www.sportsxchange.com/DS97/walsh/walsh2qb.htm

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To become a great quarterback, there must be instincts and intuition. This is the area that can be the difference between a very solid quarterback and a great quarterback. This isn't an area you can do much with as a coach. You can certainly bring a quarterback up to a competitive standard, but to reach greatness the quarterback must possess that inherently, ala Billy Kilmer, Sonny Jurgensen, Ken Stabler and Warren Moon.
Since the Alabama game this season, I've been saying that Manziel's instincts are on another level - as good as anyone to play college QB (since I've been watching, anyway), and I'm not the only one saying it:

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"You talk about instincts and playmaking ability -- I've never evaluated anybody at the quarterback position better in those factors," Jeremiah said this week on Fox Sports' Peter Schrager Podcast. "... He's the most creative quarterback playmaker that I've scouted in 10 years."
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200...s-nfl-prospect

Based on Walsh's view on leadership from the QB position, Manziel seems like the ideal:

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Now, he must be courageous and intensely competitive. He will be the one on the field who is running the team. His teammates must believe in him or it may not matter how much physical ability he has. If he is courageous and intensely competitive, then other players will know and respect that. This will be a foundation for becoming a leader.
Nick Saban cover this pretty well:

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"This guy is one of the greatest competitors in all the years I've coached, 40 years of coaching, that I've had the opportunity to play against," Saban said. "This guy does a fantastic job."
http://www.secrant.com/news/63871/47...pliment-On-Air

And from the previous article Jeremiah also notes:

Quote:
"Here's the question I pose any time I talk to a personnel guy and they're lukewarm on him or they're kind of a doubter. I say, 'OK, let me just ask you this question: ... If I told you right now your life is on the line, you have the ball on your own 20-yard line, there's two minutes and you have to go score a touchdown and you could have any quarterback in college football, who would you take for that?'" Jeremiah said. "I also say, 'It's fourth-and-seven. Same deal. High stakes. You can take any quarterback (in college football) on fourth-and-seven, who would you take?' "I haven't got anybody to tell me they wouldn't take this kid."
But Walsh spells out the most important aspect of a great QB:

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The single trait that separates great quarterbacks from good quarterbacks is the ability to make the great, spontaneous decision, especially at a crucial time. The clock is running down and your team is five points behind. The play that was called has broken down and 22 players are moving in almost unpredictable directions all over the field.

This is where the great quarterback uses his experience, vision, mobility and what we will call spontaneous genius. He makes something good happen. This, of course, is what we saw in Joe Montana when he pulled out those dramatic victories for Notre Dame.
There is no QB in the history of college football who better embodies that description than Manziel. We can debate whether Manziel or Bridgewater do whichever little things better all day, but Manziel comes up the clear winner in the categories that MAKE a great QB. I think both will be good and have relatively high floors and ceilings. So because I think both have the passing ability to be good QB's (Manziel is an exceptional down field passer, has a great completion %, and a stellar YPA). Again, I prefer Manziel because I view him as significantly better in the areas that Walsh calls most important.
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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Ironically, Bill Walsh's WCO was one of the most precise, timing based offenses in the NFL.
It didn't have QB improvisation built into the gameplan.

Bill Walsh places a high importance on QBs being able to make a play when the playcall breaks down, but I don't hear him saying it's the most important skill or trait for a great QB.

You should read what Steve Young and Mike Holmgren say are the most important skills needed to be a successful QB in the WCO.

Being able to scramble around and make an off-schedule play isn't one of them.
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Old 02-08-2014, 06:14 PM    (permalink
E_Bird
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Ironically, Bill Walsh's WCO was one of the most precise, timing based offenses in the NFL.
It didn't have QB improvisation built into the gameplan.

Bill Walsh places a high importance on QBs being able to make a play when the playcall breaks down, but I don't hear him saying it's the most important skill or trait for a great QB.

You should read what Steve Young and Mike Holmgren say are the most important skills needed to be a successful QB in the WCO.

Being able to scramble around and make an off-schedule play isn't one of them.
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The single trait that separates great quarterbacks from good quarterbacks is the ability to make the great, spontaneous decision, especially at a crucial time. The clock is running down and your team is five points behind. The play that was called has broken down and 22 players are moving in almost unpredictable directions all over the field.
That's exactly what he's saying.
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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TheScout!! ‏@Inside_D_Hashes 3h
@DraftKlassen @Nate_Vasagam @SeanTrench No I am straight serious about Guiton over Bridgewater

TheScout!! ‏@Inside_D_Hashes 6h
After evaluating QB Teddy Bridgewater I have to rate him as "Off My Draft Board". Considerably overrated heading into the 2014 NFL Draft IMO

https://twitter.com/Inside_D_Hashes

Interesting stuff...
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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TheScout!! ‏@Inside_D_Hashes 3h
@DraftKlassen @Nate_Vasagam @SeanTrench No I am straight serious about Guiton over Bridgewater

TheScout!! ‏@Inside_D_Hashes 6h
After evaluating QB Teddy Bridgewater I have to rate him as "Off My Draft Board". Considerably overrated heading into the 2014 NFL Draft IMO

https://twitter.com/Inside_D_Hashes

Interesting stuff...
I'm pretty sure he has zero clout in the scouting world, so I don't think his evaluation means anything.
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by worldtheofend View Post
TheScout!! ‏@Inside_D_Hashes 3h
@DraftKlassen @Nate_Vasagam @SeanTrench No I am straight serious about Guiton over Bridgewater

TheScout!! ‏@Inside_D_Hashes 6h
After evaluating QB Teddy Bridgewater I have to rate him as "Off My Draft Board". Considerably overrated heading into the 2014 NFL Draft IMO

https://twitter.com/Inside_D_Hashes

Interesting stuff...
Clearly someone just aiming for shock value
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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I'm pretty sure he has zero clout in the scouting world, so I don't think his evaluation means anything.
It certainly seems like it, it just sounded really ridiculous
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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Clearly someone just aiming for shock value
He did a good job
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:02 PM    (permalink
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That's exactly what he's saying.
Walsh said the ability to improvise when the play breaks down is what separates the good from the great QBs, he never said improvisational talent is the most important skillset for an NFL QB, or necessary to be successful running the WCO.

It's like saying breakaway speed is what separates good RBs from great ones.
Running a 4.28 alone doesn't make you a great RB.

It's a bonus, that's all.

If a QB can't get through his progressions quickly, know from reading a defensive alignment before the snap which one of his WRs is going to be most open on a pattern, throw to a WR before he gets out of his break, throw with accuracy to the sidelines and down the seam, he's never going to be a great QB anyway.

Not every play in the NFL is a scramble drill.
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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Walsh said the ability to improvise when the play breaks down is what separates the good from the great QBs, he never said improvisational talent is the most important skillset for an NFL QB, or necessary to be successful running the WCO.

It's like saying breakaway speed is what separates good RBs from great ones.
Running a 4.28 alone doesn't make you a great RB.

It's a bonus, that's all.

If a QB can't get through his progressions quickly, know from reading a defensive alignment before the snap which one of his WRs is going to be most open on a pattern, throw to a WR before he gets out of his break, throw with accuracy to the sidelines and down the seam, he's never going to be a great QB anyway.

Not every play in the NFL is a scramble drill.
This is exactly what I was going to say. To be honest though I don't even agree with Walsh on this. Peyton Manning is going to be a first ballot HOF and his game has never been about having success on broken plays but instead his focus was always on limiting the number of broken plays his offense had. He did this by making proper presnap and postnap reads. Broken plays are never going to be an offense's most efficient plays so any QB should seek to minimize the number of them.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:05 AM    (permalink
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If he weighs 220 then weight no longer is an issue for him. I think anything over 210 would be make me feel confident that he could continue to put on weight in the NFL and have the type of body able to withstand the punishment of a full NFL season. Anything under 210 and especially something like 200-205 would make me seriously question if he had already maxed out his frame.
NFL scouts are very good at projecting whether or not a prospect can gain weight or is just naturally thin. The fact that Bridgewater is getting seriously brought to task over his thin upper body suggests to me that the scouts have already concluded that what you see is what you are going to get in Bridgewater's case.

People mistake a lot of prospects ability to gain weight in the places they need to. Many, many prospects have no problems gaining weight, but there are prospects who simply cannot gain weight and if they do, they cannot retain it with any consistency. I suspect that is what the scouts see in Bridgewater. You have to remember that he has had years in college to build up his body, that is something the colleges are very good at, but he has simply failed to do it, so he probably can't. He is likely maxed out.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:19 AM    (permalink
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Not sure why keep you bringing up Bridgewater's injuries in college.

He has never missed a game and he was only injured for two games in his career which he played through and performed well and that shows his toughness.

That should be a positive in the eyes of the NFL as you are going to have to play through nicks on the next level.
I agree he is tough, but he was injured for more than 2 games and limped through a much larger # of games.
When scouts and GM's are worried about your build and you have a college season where you were injured, even if you played through it, it raises red flags.
Draftniks don't have to answer to anybody, but GM's and scouts get fired for making expensive mistakes and whether we like it or not, they will sometimes pass on a prospect who we see no problem with, over their build if they think it will possibly limit their success.
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Old 02-09-2014, 07:29 AM    (permalink
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Walsh said the ability to improvise when the play breaks down is what separates the good from the great QBs, he never said improvisational talent is the most important skillset for an NFL QB, or necessary to be successful running the WCO.

It's like saying breakaway speed is what separates good RBs from great ones.
Running a 4.28 alone doesn't make you a great RB.

It's a bonus, that's all.

If a QB can't get through his progressions quickly, know from reading a defensive alignment before the snap which one of his WRs is going to be most open on a pattern, throw to a WR before he gets out of his break, throw with accuracy to the sidelines and down the seam, he's never going to be a great QB anyway.

Not every play in the NFL is a scramble drill.
Breakaway speed is not what separates good and great RB's. There have been plenty of great RB's who didn't possess great breakaway speed. As I said, though, I think both Bridgewater and Manziel are and will be very good, efficient QB's (from the pocket). If you're argument is that Manziel's entire game is running around, you should pay more attention. He killed Alabama (better D than Bridgewater has ever played) from the pocket in 2013. He throws the ball down the field better than any QB in college football, has better ball placement down the field, and tests more areas of the field. When Manziel loses a step later in his career, or due to injury, he's still going to be a great QB, because he plays the QB position well, and he has superior instincts.
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:03 AM    (permalink
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He killed Alabama (better D than Bridgewater has ever played) from the pocket in 2013.
Florida 2012 D was better.

Again doesn't mean anything anyway.
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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Florida 2012 D was better.

Again doesn't mean anything anyway.
Dude, how many times do I have to spell it out? Both QB's are great pocket passers at the college level, and I think they'll both be good at the pro level (as pocket passers). Each has areas IN THE POCKET that he does better than the other. With that understood, I look at the factors that separate great QB's from good QB's, and Manziel trumps Bridgewater in every one.

Also, funbuncher brought up Manning. Manning's struggles in the playoffs are well documented, and he is deserving of the criticism. When things break down, he has few answers. He does the other things at the QB position as well as anyone who ever played, but come playoff time, when the D's are almost all legit, he's not the same guy, because he's incapable of consistently making the play outside the play.

I agree with Walsh's take on the importance of spontaneous genius, and Manning - in my opinion - strengthens that argument, rather than weakening it. If you think football ends after Week 17, I can see where you'd get confused, but Walsh understood what it takes to win championships.
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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Breakaway speed is not what separates good and great RB's. There have been plenty of great RB's who didn't possess great breakaway speed. As I said, though, I think both Bridgewater and Manziel are and will be very good, efficient QB's (from the pocket). If you're argument is that Manziel's entire game is running around, you should pay more attention. He killed Alabama (better D than Bridgewater has ever played) from the pocket in 2013. He throws the ball down the field better than any QB in college football, has better ball placement down the field, and tests more areas of the field. When Manziel loses a step later in his career, or due to injury, he's still going to be a great QB, because he plays the QB position well, and he has superior instincts.
The Gators D in 2012 was roughly equal to that of Alabama. It's fair to compare Bridgewater's performance against the Gators to Manziel's against the Tide.

Who said Manziel's game was just running around?lol
There's an entire thread in here about just Johnny Football, I've been one of his biggest supporters.

However because of the spread scheme Manziel played in and the lack of full field reads he was required to make, I feel Manziel is a more raw prospect than Bridgewater.

It's the same separation I saw between Luck and RG3 when they came out, primarily the difference in running a more pro friendly offense at Stanford versus the Air Raid spread at Baylor.

I don't have a problem with Manziel's draft stock rising, but again the question is why at least publicly is Bridgewater's draft rank falling??

Both guys IMO are top 5 prospects, along with Watkins and Clowney.
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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Dude, how many times do I have to spell it out? Both QB's are great pocket passers at the college level, and I think they'll both be good at the pro level (as pocket passers). Each has areas IN THE POCKET that he does better than the other. With that understood, I look at the factors that separate great QB's from good QB's, and Manziel trumps Bridgewater in every one.
Ha calm down man.

You are the one taking shots at Bridgewater with point's that i believe are wrong. What was the point of you bringing up Up Alabama's D if not to try and discredit Bridgewater?

I just disagreed with it Florida's D last year was great and most people who watched college football had it as the best in country. The only way they won games last year was because of the defense as their offense was putrid.

And i have no idea what you consider factors that separate good from great QB's so i don't know what that means.

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Old 02-09-2014, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Let me just say this about Manziel.

Bridgewater to me is a better NFL prospect and i would draft him ahead of him but i have never said Manziel cannot be succesful in the NFL. I would take him second ahead of Bortles.

I just don't think his game at this point is going to mesh with being a drop back pocket passer and if you draft him to play in that kind of system early i don't think it's going to work.

You have to allow him to be a play maker early and take the rough with the smooth while you develop him. I think you have to let him be that player for the first year or two or you have to sit him his first year which is not an option in today's NFL.

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Old 02-09-2014, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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The Gators D in 2012 was roughly equal to that of Alabama. It's fair to compare Bridgewater's performance against the Gators to Manziel's against the Tide.

Who said Manziel's game was just running around?lol
There's an entire thread in here about just Johnny Football, I've been one of his biggest supporters.

However because of the spread scheme Manziel played in and the lack of full field reads he was required to make, I feel Manziel is a more raw prospect than Bridgewater.

It's the same separation I saw between Luck and RG3 when they came out, primarily the difference in running a more pro friendly offense at Stanford versus the Air Raid spread at Baylor.

I don't have a problem with Manziel's draft stock rising, but again the question is why at least publicly is Bridgewater's draft rank falling??

Both guys IMO are top 5 prospects, along with Watkins and Clowney.
I agree that both players are top 5, and Bridgewater would be my #1 QB in most drafts. I rate him higher than I did RG3 - Stafford, Matt Ryan (Bridgewater to me is a lot like Matt Ryan, but he has more upside than Ryan), obviously anyone from last year's draft, Bradford. The only QB's from recent drafts that I'd rank ahead of Bridgewater are Newton (barely), Luck, and Manziel. Before the season, I had Bridgewater as the clear-cut #1 QB, and I haven't downgraded him at all. Also, I want to point out that as a person, I prefer Bridgewater to Manziel. He's a more likable guy. I didn't go in to the season rooting for Manziel or thinking that he was much of a QB prospect. His growth from 2012 to 2013 elevated him above Bridgewater (to me, obviously). If the Texans draft Bridgewater over Maniel, I won't think it's a terrible decision. If they draft Clowney over either, I won't think it's a terrible decision. If they draft any of those three, I think they're in good shape.

As I've said, I think Bridgewater and Manziel both have the tools from the pocket, and I should have been clearer (reading back) that Bridgewater is no slouch when the play breaks down. I like him A LOT. My stance on Manziel over Bridgewater is predicated on them being relatively equal in most areas (some give and take) but Manziel being superior (to me) in the areas that separate great QB's from good QB's - which I attempted to explain using Walsh's criteria for the QB position (which I agree with almost 100%). Again, it's not to say Bridgewater is lacking in those areas - just that Manziel is off the charts.
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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Let me just say this about Manziel.

Bridgewater to me is a better NFL prospect and i would draft him ahead of him but i have never said Manziel cannot be succesful in the NFL

I just don't think his game at this point is going to mesh with being a drop back pocket passer and if you draft him to play in that kind of system early i don't think it's going to work.

You have to allow him to be a play maker early and take the rough with the smooth while you develop him. I think you have to let him be that player for the first year or two or you have to sit him his first year which is not an option in today's NFL.
My preferred team for Manziel would be Jacksonville. He won't put up the same numbers there, but Bradley is a good coach with a strong philosophy. Ideally, Manziel would play a game similar to Wilson. I'm not saying they're exactly the same, but in a controlled offense, where Manziel is asked to extend drives and make big throws down the field, I think he'll have the most team success. It's also how I prefer my football. Watching Manziel at A&M was always a mixed bag for me, because I really dislike what that team does and how it functions - way too much emphasis on the pass, soft D - but I loved watching Manziel play.
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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My preferred team for Manziel would be Jacksonville. He won't put up the same numbers there, but Bradley is a good coach with a strong philosophy. Ideally, Manziel would play a game similar to Wilson. I'm not saying they're exactly the same, but in a controlled offense, where Manziel is asked to extend drives and make big throws down the field, I think he'll have the most team success. It's also how I prefer my football. Watching Manziel at A&M was always a mixed bag for me, because I really dislike what that team does and how it functions - way too much emphasis on the pass, soft D - but I loved watching Manziel play.
You would wish Manziel on J-Ville???

lol, at least Hackenberg will be coming out in 2-3 years. Gives you ample time to snap out of the Manziel love fest and get a legitimate qb
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Old 02-09-2014, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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You would wish Manziel on J-Ville???

lol, at least Hackenberg will be coming out in 2-3 years. Gives you ample time to snap out of the Manziel love fest and get a legitimate qb
Poor attempt at trolling.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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Why is there so much slurping of Manziel in a thread devoted to Bridgewater?
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:02 PM    (permalink
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Why is there so much slurping of Manziel in a thread devoted to Bridgewater?
Because somebody had the audacity to claim that Bridgewater was better than Manziel and had better pocket awareness.....
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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Because somebody had the audacity to claim that Bridgewater was better than Manziel and had better pocket awareness.....


That's right. Old school. Also my contribution to this thread. Goodbye.
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