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Old 07-16-2013, 10:35 PM    (permalink
Brent
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the Doug Flutie comp is my favorite.
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Old 07-16-2013, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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Cross between Jeff Garcia and Michael Vick.
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Old 07-16-2013, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Robcards View Post
C) teams typically don't draft their biggest need they draft the best player
D) how is this a reason not to draft a qb in the first? You draft players in the first for 4-5 years, not 1
E) this is the same as D
F) he can be cut or traded as early as 2015 and save cap space, as I mentioned before, not a deterrent
G) how can you say you have any credibility whatsoever when one of your reasons is 'its stupid'?

And yes I can rule out Romo winning 3 Super Bowls by 2015, as there will only have been 2 Super Bowls anyone could have won by then.

You're losing this. Deal win it.
Watching you react sure makes me feel like I'm winning. This has been so enjoyable. Thank you.

Teams draft for need all the time. If this is a new concept for you then I hope it sinks in.

Who said that there is no reason to draft a qb in round one? From reading your posts I'm starting to get that you don't comprehend as much as I'd like you to. Since college qbs are being more successful as rookies than ever before Dallas doesn't need to spend their 1st on a qb until they really need one. I guess that flew right over your head, but I hope you catch it the second time around.

Romo's contract will prevent the cowboys from taking a 1st round qb next year. Even you admit that the odds would be around 5% for that happening. Obviously you don't think it's likely. Contradict much?
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:14 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
Romo's contract will prevent the cowboys from taking a 1st round qb next year. Even you admit that the odds would be around 5% for that happening. Obviously you don't think it's likely. Contradict much?
Please explain how that contradicts ANYTHING that I've said thus far. You must have a different definition of "I wouldn't rule it out" than I do. Here are some examples to make it more clear:
I wouldn't rule out the Jets making the playoffs this year.
I wouldn't rule out DMC playing 16 games this year.
I wouldn't rule out the Texans winning the Super Bowl.

Does that mean I think these things are likely? No it does not. Quite the opposite. It means I think there's a chance, a VERY small chance of the things happening.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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I feel he reminds me at least a bit of a poor man's Steve McNair. Maybe it's been said in this thread, Maybe it wasn't. He's got great speed and playmaking potential. This season might be a better judge of pocket presence and footwork and poise, as some of his offensive line talent weakens, and he faces what could be more grueling defenses, with Alabama, going to LSU, and to what could be nasty DLs in Auburn and Mississippi.

The Garcia comp was also a nice one. That came to my mind first, but I don't really know how Garcia was in his prime, I wasn't paying attention to particular players playing at the time.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:30 AM    (permalink
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Teams draft for need all the time. If this is a new concept for you then I hope it sinks in.
I don't even know what to say to this. Look at the first round of last year and tell me how many picks were need picks. Off the top of my head 4 of the first 5 picks weren't need picks, only the Lions taking Ansah classifies as such.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, Manziel-Detmer has got to be one of the worst player comparisons I've ever heard of.
watch how similar their heisman college careers and pro careers are.

Athletically he reminds me of allen iverson as a QB....but he wont be anything more than backup in the NFL, the odds are really stacked against him
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Old 07-17-2013, 04:05 AM    (permalink
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Manziel isn't some mad bomber winging the football. His decision making as a passer thus far is solid.

He looks helter skelter out there on the football field but you get the sense even if no one else does, Johnny Football knows exactly what he's doing.

The numbers he put up last season were insane while completing darn close to completing 70% of his passes.

He may not be the pure passer other 6 foot/sub 6 foot QBs like Brees and Wilson are, but his scrambling ability more than makes up for it IMO.

I recently heard the Fran Tarkenton comparison made for Manziel, looking at old NFL film their games seem eerily similar.

If Romo doesn't get the Cowboys into the playoffs this upcoming season, I think Jerruh is quietly looking for his successor even if he has to sit behind him for a few years, a la Aaron Rodgers.
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Old 07-17-2013, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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watch how similar their heisman college careers and pro careers are.

Athletically he reminds me of allen iverson as a QB....but he wont be anything more than backup in the NFL, the odds are really stacked against him
I think if Russell Wilson has found success in the NFL than Manziel can as well. Regarding the Vick comparison - Manziel is quick and slippery, I really have not seen the escapability factor like that since Vick. I give Vick an edge in arm strength and straight line speed. Vick is a 4.3 guy, Manziel is probably in the 4.5 range. They both are similar in size. Manziel is more developed as a passer already though and makes good decisions with the football. Someone mentioned a Flutie comparison as well - I really like that comparison too. I think Manziel is somewhere between Vick and Flutie.

The fact that more offenses in the NFL are running up-tempo spread offenses really help as well. Both Vick and Flutie played in pro-style type offenses in college so that made it more difficult to project them to the next level.

He just needs to grow up a little bit, I still think he has first round potential. Since he is only 20 I think he will continue to develop physically and continue to increase his arm strength.
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Old 07-17-2013, 09:44 AM    (permalink
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manziel's low center of gravity helps his escapability a lot.
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Old 07-17-2013, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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I think if Russell Wilson has found success in the NFL than Manziel can as well. Regarding the Vick comparison - Manziel is quick and slippery, I really have not seen the escapability factor like that since Vick. I give Vick an edge in arm strength and straight line speed. Vick is a 4.3 guy, Manziel is probably in the 4.5 range. They both are similar in size. Manziel is more developed as a passer already though and makes good decisions with the football. Someone mentioned a Flutie comparison as well - I really like that comparison too. I think Manziel is somewhere between Vick and Flutie.

an edge in arm strength? really? i think usain bolt has an edge on me in speed. no ****. Vick had among the strongest arms of any college prospect ever. He was Marinos arm with barrys legs, a total freak. Manziel isnt quite as quick as Vick although he is certainly very quick just not quite that explosive pop that vick had, but manziel isnt on the same planet speed wise, as you said. But manziel has no where near the arm vick did, not even close to being in the same state, never mind neighborhood.

Vicks build was more muscular and stocky than Manziel, but he does have some time to build up a bit.


The fact that more offenses in the NFL are running up-tempo spread offenses really help as well. Both Vick and Flutie played in pro-style type offenses in college so that made it more difficult to project them to the next level.

? what the hell are you talking about? nfl teams ran more under center stuff when vick arrived, and while he had been under center plenty at VT, he was very poorly versed in diagnosing coverage and anticipating breaks to go along with inconsistent footwork. His offense did not hold him back as a prospect going to the pro level ala urban meyers O, it was the fact that no college QB save the very very elite are asked to make anything close to pro reads and vick was certainly not among them.

and the up tempo spread doesnt do anything for manziel going forward. So he can run up to the ball and snap it fast. thats super swell.

does he have any idea what the hell the D is doing?

because the O he is in now requires no reading of the coverage of any kind really, so im not really sure how his O prepares him for the next level besides the fact that they snap it at a fast pace.
i know hes fun to watch, and he can probably scratch out an nfl career as a journeyman ala jeff garcia if hes lucky, but the dude has no skills that translate to the nfl at this time besides his elusiveness. dont tell me his passing numbers or any of that ********, watching with my eyes tells me and nfl D will eat him alive.
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 07-17-2013, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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Just saw this interview from the SEC media day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EchayK9a8-M
Take it for what you want. Me personally, I dont trust his character.
As far as on the field goes, I think the Jeff Garcia comparison is pretty spot on. From what Ive seen, I also think there is some resembelance to Tony Romo, with Manziel having less armstrength.
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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Just saw this interview from the SEC media day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EchayK9a8-M
Take it for what you want. Me personally, I dont trust his character.
As far as on the field goes, I think the Jeff Garcia comparison is pretty spot on. From what Ive seen, I also think there is some resembelance to Tony Romo, with Manziel having less armstrength.
i love how he says i take full responsability for being late to the meeting at 3 mins, yet dodges the drinking question before it because he knows as well as everyone else that he was out and that their are pictures of him out in NO.

But somehow that constitutes taking FULL responsability to him. 'hey im gunna duck some stuff, say it was a total innocent accident and then say 'i take full responsability for that innocent accident of my phone dying on me and killing my alarm.'' come on.
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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I think if Russell Wilson has found success in the NFL than Manziel can as well. Regarding the Vick comparison - Manziel is quick and slippery, I really have not seen the escapability factor like that since Vick. I give Vick an edge in arm strength and straight line speed. Vick is a 4.3 guy, Manziel is probably in the 4.5 range. They both are similar in size. Manziel is more developed as a passer already though and makes good decisions with the football. Someone mentioned a Flutie comparison as well - I really like that comparison too. I think Manziel is somewhere between Vick and Flutie.

The fact that more offenses in the NFL are running up-tempo spread offenses really help as well. Both Vick and Flutie played in pro-style type offenses in college so that made it more difficult to project them to the next level.

He just needs to grow up a little bit, I still think he has first round potential. Since he is only 20 I think he will continue to develop physically and continue to increase his arm strength.
Russel Wilsons arms and legs are built wayyyyy thicker than manziel and he was a 5 year starer, which is massively different than being a 2 year starter and bolting for the pros.

Wilson is a horrible one to compare him to, wilson absolutely got as polished as a QB as he possibly could in college
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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One - Jeff Garcia wouldn't have been a journeyman if he'd broken into the league earlier. He was an immediate starter as a 29 year-old rookie and made 3 consecutive Pro Bowls when he was 30, 31 and 32, and played until he was 40. He's had a pretty unique career arc, Warren Moon-ish in a way in that people didn't think he looked like an NFL QB, had to go tear it up in Canada for awhile and then still had a pretty long career.

Secondly, yeah - Russell Wilson really isn't that good of a comparison for Manziel, perhaps surprisingly. Yes, they're both short and athletic, but that's about where the comparisons end. Wilson always scrambled in order to pass in college, and it was always really evident from his tape. Manziel has a much different stride when he takes off with the ball - it's a lot longer and you can tell he's really trying to pull away from defenders, while Russell Wilson takes much shorter, quicker steps in a short area, always trying to use his quickness to get out of pressure, reset and throw, and when he runs downfield he gets down before contact, where Manziel is more inclined to try and accelerate through small spaces. Also, Russell Wilson probably has legitimately 20 lbs in Manziel. Offseason reports said he gained a lot of muscle in the offseason and now stands 5'10 215. He's seriously built like a running back.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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Russel Wilsons arms and legs are built wayyyyy thicker than manziel and he was a 5 year starer, which is massively different than being a 2 year starter and bolting for the pros.

Wilson is a horrible one to compare him to, wilson absolutely got as polished as a QB as he possibly could in college
Manziel is the better athlete and talent though. He has more upside than Wilson. Manziel plays in a complicated offensive system requiring him to read the whole field. He took the SEC by storm as a freshman - the conference everyone says is the best in the country and a feeder for NFL defenses.

Wilson does have the edge on experience and maturity though. For what its worth people have said when they are around Manziel he looks alot "thicker" than they anticipated. Also, Wilson was 23 or 24 when he was drafted, Manziel still has some time to grow and develop since he is only 20. Manziel just needs to grow up a little. Personally, I think he should stay for at least the next two seasons in college.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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Please explain how that contradicts ANYTHING that I've said thus far. You must have a different definition of "I wouldn't rule it out" than I do. Here are some examples to make it more clear:
I wouldn't rule out the Jets making the playoffs this year.
I wouldn't rule out DMC playing 16 games this year.
I wouldn't rule out the Texans winning the Super Bowl.

Does that mean I think these things are likely? No it does not. Quite the opposite. It means I think there's a chance, a VERY small chance of the things happening.
So for ALL the reasons why you think the Cowboys WOULD draft a 1st round QB, and seeing how passionate you are about it all.... in the end, you are saying there is "a VERY small chance" of it actually happening. kgotcha.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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I don't even know what to say to this. Look at the first round of last year and tell me how many picks were need picks. Off the top of my head 4 of the first 5 picks weren't need picks, only the Lions taking Ansah classifies as such.
Try taking a sample larger than the first 5 picks. Maybe it'll start to click in your head.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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Manziel is the better athlete and talent though. He has more upside than Wilson. Manziel plays in a complicated offensive system requiring him to read the whole field. He took the SEC by storm as a freshman - the conference everyone says is the best in the country and a feeder for NFL defenses.

Wilson does have the edge on experience and maturity though. For what its worth people have said when they are around Manziel he looks alot "thicker" than they anticipated. Also, Wilson was 23 or 24 when he was drafted, Manziel still has some time to grow and develop since he is only 20. Manziel just needs to grow up a little. Personally, I think he should stay for at least the next two seasons in college.
K then what about Kordell Stewart?
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:05 PM    (permalink
MassNole
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This season Manziel will get picked apart. If he does well, he could very well go Round 1. I'm firmly in the camp that his value would be in Round 1.

Even if he totally bombs out like some people want to think, I agree that he would be an excellent backup QB who is worth developing.
This time last year Matt Barkley was the sure fire #1 pick in the Draft. He was picked apart by scouts and fell to Round 4. He isn't as athletic as Manziel, but has a better understanding of a Pro Style offense (even if it is Lane Kiffin's offense), a much better arm, and no character issues after being a 4 year starter. Manziel has huge questions marks about his character, lacks ideal size, lacks an NFL arm, and plays in a system that does no favors in developing QBs for the NFL. He isn't like E.J. Manuel where maybe some stuff doesn't show up the way you want but you can overlook it because he has everything else. Manziel has nothing but a gaudy stat sheet when it comes to the NFL. If Barkley slipped to the 4th when he is quantifiabley better across the board, there is no way Manziel goes round 1 unless a team goes full ****** like Denver did with Tim Tebow.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Manziel is the better athlete and talent though. He has more upside than Wilson. Manziel plays in a complicated offensive system requiring him to read the whole field. He took the SEC by storm as a freshman - the conference everyone says is the best in the country and a feeder for NFL defenses.
http://www.chron.com/sports/aggies/a...-s-4035193.php

heres a whole article on how wrong you are, so you can drop that complex offense crap already.

Kingsbury also notes that they took concepts from mike leach, whos air raid produced tons of qbs who could rack crazy numbers up and do nothing at the next level because the passing concepts required no reads and did nothing to prepare them.

i love the philosophies of it because keeping it simple is imo the best way to coach a team to success. but to say its prepping manziel for the pros is patently false.
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:20 PM    (permalink
MassNole
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http://www.chron.com/sports/aggies/a...-s-4035193.php

heres a whole article on how wrong you are, so you can drop that complex offense crap already.

Kingsbury also notes that they took concepts from mike leach, whos air raid produced tons of qbs who could rack crazy numbers up and do nothing at the next level because the passing concepts required no reads and did nothing to prepare them.

i love the philosophies of it because keeping it simple is imo the best way to coach a team to success. but to say its prepping manziel for the pros is patently false.
Those offenses don't even really do favors for WR's either as at least in the Leach system they were assigned one role. Really basic sound defense shuts down the Hal Mumme tree of offenses and almost always will barring a fluke performance here or there.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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So for ALL the reasons why you think the Cowboys WOULD draft a 1st round QB, and seeing how passionate you are about it all.... in the end, you are saying there is "a VERY small chance" of it actually happening. kgotcha.
You really need to learn how to read.

For the 20th time. I don't think the Cowboys are drafting a qb! I never said that. Never. I said I wouldn't rule it out. I said the chances are greater than 0% but not much more. I never argued with you about how likely it is, why they are going to draft one, or anything of the sort. I argued with you that:

1. Tony Romo is only locked in until 2015, not 2018.
2. The Cowboys aren't going to not draft a qb because of his contract.

Them not not drafting a qb =/= they are drafting a qb, remenber those 9th grade logic proofs? Stop trying to make it sound like I said something different in an effort to win this argument. Everyone who's chimed in has agreed with me and no one agrees with you. You lost. Stop posting. End this.

PS- I posted 2 reasons why they wouldn't draft a qb, and debated your reasons for them not drafting one which included Romo's contract. Please, quote for me when I posted reasons why I think they will draft one. Yet again, putting words in my mouth.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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(Tells Robcards that Robcards is telling him the Cowboys are going to draft a quarterback.)
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For the 20th time. (repeats himself.)
Mmk, you both can stop now.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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Mmk, you both can stop now.
Believe me, I want to. But I'm not going to have the last thing said be him posting about things I never said. Unbelievable that an admin on this forum is arguing like a 10 year old. I'm surprised he hasn't suspended me to make sure he has the last word yet.
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