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View Poll Results: Who goes further this season from the NFC West?
San Francisco 58 45.31%
Seattle 70 54.69%
Voters: 128. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-26-2013, 01:19 PM    (permalink
gpngc
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I think these teams transcend matchups. They're arguably the two best teams in the league. They can both beat anyone.
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That's ridiculous.

They had good years recently, but the talent level of both teams isn't dramatically greater than what is on the rest of the teams in the NFL.

For example: the 49ers are weak on their Defensive Line if Justin Smith isn't a dominant player. Their secondary is mediocre at best. The Seahawks don't have much on their Offensive Line outside of Russell Okung. If he goes down (and he is injury prone) that offense could actually struggle mightily.

I could easily see either one of these teams taking a downturn and failing to win even 10 games this year.
What exactly is ridiculous about what I said. I said they are ARGUABLY the best two teams which does not equal "dramatically" anything.

And they can both beat anyone. You disagree with that. There's a team they can't beat? What team?
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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That's the point. There isn't one.

Guys in this thread are talking about the Seahawks and 49ers like they're stacked at every position and on the path to becoming the next 70s Steelers dynasty type of team, which they most certainly *aren't*.
The only place the 49ers aren't stacked are at DE, CB and saftey. Offense we have limited players at wide out and now possible TE. all other position have great depth .
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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I do agree that the 49ers could take a step back this year though. That secondary is awful.
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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I do agree that the 49ers could take a step back this year though. That secondary is awful.
The 49ers secondary isn't "awful". You don't rank in the top five for yards and yards per pass attempt with an "awful" secondary, regardless of how good your front seven is.
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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The 49ers secondary isn't "awful". You don't rank in the top five for yards and yards per pass attempt with an "awful" secondary, regardless of how good your front seven is.
It is awful. Nmandi and Carlos Rogers are your 2 starting CBs. Whitner is not very good. And you have a rookie FS. That's not a good secondary.

Your defense will be fine. But they're flawed vs the spread this year. Keep in mind, taking a step back for the 49ers is not out of this world considering they just made it to the SB. In fact it's highly unlikely that they don't take a step back.
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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It is awful. Nmandi and Carlos Rogers are your 2 starting CBs. Whitner is not very good. And you have a rookie FS. That's not a good secondary.

Your defense will be fine. But they're flawed vs the spread this year. Keep in mind, taking a step back for the 49ers is not out of this world considering they just made it to the SB. In fact it's highly unlikely that they don't take a step back.
LOL no it's not awful. It's not the best in the league, but it's not awful. We have the same players from last season that helped achieved that success. Nmandi isn't a starting corner. He isn't even guaranteed to make the roster, what are you talking about? Carlos Rogers plays the slot most of the time with Culliver and Brown on the outside, who are two decent corners in their own right.

Yes Goldson is gone, and Eric Reid is going to replace him. He may turn out to be better than Goldson. You're acting like having a rookie = bad for certain, and that isn't the case. The coaching staff deserves the benefit of the doubt the last two seasons.

And yeah, everyone was saying we would take a step back last season, that the turnovers wouldn't go our way, that everyone would get hurt, etc. Turns out those people were full of ****.
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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LOL no it's not awful. It's not the best in the league, but it's not awful. We have the same players from last season that helped achieved that success. Nmandi isn't a starting corner. He isn't even guaranteed to make the roster, what are you talking about? Carlos Rogers plays the slot most of the time with Culliver and Brown on the outside, who are two decent corners in their own right.

Yes Goldson is gone, and Eric Reid is going to replace him. He may turn out to be better than Goldson. You're acting like having a rookie = bad for certain, and that isn't the case. The coaching staff deserves the benefit of the doubt the last two seasons.

And yeah, everyone was saying we would take a step back last season, that the turnovers wouldn't go our way, that everyone would get hurt, etc. Turns out those people were full of ****.
You do realize that the odds of making it back to the SB are strongly against you right? I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's just incredibly difficult to sustain that kind of success for 3 seasons.

The defense's success vs the pass isn't necessarily a reflection of the secondary. That front 7 plays a huge role. And you guys run so much cover 2 that your linebacker coverage plays a huge role as well.

But when you break down the individual talent of that secondary, I don't see how you can possibly say that it isn't a below average secondary.
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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You do realize that the odds of making it back to the SB are strongly against you right? I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's just incredibly difficult to sustain that kind of success for 3 seasons.

The defense's success vs the pass isn't necessarily a reflection of the secondary. That front 7 plays a huge role. And you guys run so much cover 2 that your linebacker coverage plays a huge role as well.

But when you break down the individual talent of that secondary, I don't see how you can possibly say that it isn't a below average secondary.
I'm not talking about making it to the Super Bowl. I'm talking about being just as good as a team to make it to the Super Bowl. There have been a lot more talented teams that have not made it to the Super Bowl compared to teams that have. Taking a step back to me implies that the team overall won't be as good as last season and will potentially miss the playoffs. Yeah, and I also heard all the odds about this and that last season that didn't turn out to be true.

The 49ers actually play a lot of single high as well. The safeties aren't in the box that much, yes that's correct. Our front seven was a lot better in 2011, yet our pass defense wasn't. In 2012, it was the reverse. Especially in the beginning of the season when a lot of 49ers fans were complaining about why the front seven wasn't getting much pressure.

Well, I've watched every 49ers game the last two seasons with this new staff. They're a playmaking secondary that doesn't get burned deep most of the time and usually plays well. Like I said, regardless of your front seven being dominant or not, that isn't always an indictment of the secondary play. For instance, the Chargers of the mid 2000's had a good front seven, yet their defensive back play was far from spectacular.

You're saying the 49ers secondary is awful like it won't be able to stop anybody via the pass this season regardless of what the front seven does or does not do. Awful to me implies being a bottom third of the league secondary, gives up long completions a good amount of the time, and doesn't make game changing plays. And personally I just find that ridiculous to assume that is what is going to happen before the start of the season based on what has actually happened the last two years. Especially when we're returning the same players and coaching staff.
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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I think both teams take a step back this year. AZ and St. Louis should be better. The cat is out of the bag with read option offenses - defensive coordinators have been working to come up with schemes to offset the read option. Teams have plenty of film on both QBs now as well.
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Niners secondary isn't great by any means, but awful is definitely the wrong term.
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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I think both teams take a step back this year. AZ and St. Louis should be better. The cat is out of the bag with read option offenses - defensive coordinators have been working to come up with schemes to offset the read option. Teams have plenty of film on both QBs now as well.
I don't expect you to read through the entire thread but Seattle ran RO 7.5% of the time last year...
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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I don't know if I've voted, but I personally see it's a slight edge to Seattle. Both teams are top 5 teams and the pre-season rankings don't amount to much.

Justin Smith is the guy that needs to be big for SF. He's been underappreciated for too long. Aldon Smith isn't putting up those kinds of numbers without Justin Smith. Both NE and Pittsburgh's DLs took a major step backwards when they lost Richard Seymour and Aaron Smith. I think a similar situation might occur in SF.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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So this Harvin situation is pretty confusing.

I'm preparing for him to be out for the season but I'm surprised the way USA today and rotoworld are interpreting the Seahawks hopefulness as if that's actually something that matters in this situation. Of course they are hopeful - especially the ultra-optimistic Carroll - but what does that mean?

There are some who believe this is just a way for Percy to get out of practicing and TC because that's his style. I would be thrilled if this was the case but it just seems unlikely that he'd fake an injury and go through all these hoops and scare everyone with the S word and get a second opinion if something wasn't truly bothering him.

And then the most concerning thing is that they say he would definitely miss the ENTIRE season if he undergoes surgery... even though it's a 12-16 week recovery time... that makes no sense. The injury isn't severe enough to think surgery is likely yet if he does get it he's on the shelf for the whole year? Huh? Different people rehab at different rates - how do they know he wouldn't get back on the 12 week timetable? *Insert joke about his durability here*

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"If you have hip surgery, it's a lot longer than the season," Seahawks coach Pete Carroll told USA TODAY Sports on Friday. "Hip surgery, he's not going to play for the season."

RELATED: Harvin sidelined by ailing hip

Harvin, 25, was placed on the active/physically unable to perform list Thursday because of the hip, which has given him trouble since organized team activity practices this spring. He did not speak to reporters after watching Friday's practice and responded to a fan's yell of "We need you to get better!" with only a smile and a nod as he left the field.

The concern is Harvin might have a partially torn labrum, but two people familiar with the injury told USA TODAY Sports the Seahawks are hopeful surgery -- and the lengthy recovery that follows -- won't be necessary, pending another MRI. The people spoke on condition of anonymity because injury details were to remain private.
Are those two people ******* doctors? What the ****? And what does that sentence even mean? Obviously the Seahawks are hopeful surgery won't be necessary - SO AM I!!!! Whoever wrote this could have just written "gpngc is hopeful surgery won't be necessary" and it would have the exact same credibility.

Here I am HOPING a guy is trying to scheme his way out of practice with a fake injury. But I don't think that's the case. I think it's a legitimate concern.

I'm expecting surgery. Ugh.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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Good thing Chris Harper is looking good. Rice and Harper on the outside, Tate catching everything in the slot. Harvin is just a piece, not the entire solution. If he's there, great, if not this is still a 9-7 to 12-4 team. People may scoff at that but in the NFL not much separates the two records.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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My opinion on Harvin is a very pointless and selfish one. He's always been one of my favorite players because of his skillset so I was just super excited to see what he could do. And I believed he'd take this offense to incredible new heights.

But the offense is perfectly capable of being a top unit without him, as we saw down the stretch last year. Rice/Tate/Baldwin/Miller is a fine group, especially with that running game. Anything Harper gives is a plus this year.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:47 PM    (permalink
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Good thing Chris Harper is looking good. Rice and Harper on the outside, Tate catching everything in the slot. Harvin is just a piece, not the entire solution. If he's there, great, if not this is still a 9-7 to 12-4 team. People may scoff at that but in the NFL not much separates the two records.
Huge huge difference between Chris Harper and Percy Harvin.
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Old 07-27-2013, 04:20 AM    (permalink
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Huge huge difference between Chris Harper and Percy Harvin.
I'm sure people are going to call me a homer for this, but I think the difference between Tate and Harvin is smaller than most think. If Harper can get on the field early, it's going to be on the outside, so that gives us the 3-wide look we're going for anyways. Having Harvin would obviously be better, but it if Harper becomes part of the offense early on it would be more like Tate doing some of the things Percy'd have been doing while Harper lines up in Tate's usual spot. To be honest, I'm just not real sure where Doug Baldwin's going to fit in all of this. He's not going to take snaps away from Sidney Rice. He was a better slot receiver than Tate early on, but Tate's made significant improvements every year and might be keyed in now. I kind of feel like they're just going to keep Baldwin rotating in all game at different positions in place of whoever needs a breather, but he might not have a clear role beyond that in the weekly offensive game plan. It's less likely now with Harvin injured, but I'd been wondering if he was going to get put on the trading block. He's a solid no. 3/slot receiver on any team in the league, and on a lot of teams a pretty clear no. 2. I wonder what New England would give up for him right now?
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Old 07-27-2013, 06:20 AM    (permalink
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I'm not talking about making it to the Super Bowl. I'm talking about being just as good as a team to make it to the Super Bowl. There have been a lot more talented teams that have not made it to the Super Bowl compared to teams that have. Taking a step back to me implies that the team overall won't be as good as last season and will potentially miss the playoffs. Yeah, and I also heard all the odds about this and that last season that didn't turn out to be true.

The 49ers actually play a lot of single high as well. The safeties aren't in the box that much, yes that's correct. Our front seven was a lot better in 2011, yet our pass defense wasn't. In 2012, it was the reverse. Especially in the beginning of the season when a lot of 49ers fans were complaining about why the front seven wasn't getting much pressure.

Well, I've watched every 49ers game the last two seasons with this new staff. They're a playmaking secondary that doesn't get burned deep most of the time and usually plays well. Like I said, regardless of your front seven being dominant or not, that isn't always an indictment of the secondary play. For instance, the Chargers of the mid 2000's had a good front seven, yet their defensive back play was far from spectacular.

You're saying the 49ers secondary is awful like it won't be able to stop anybody via the pass this season regardless of what the front seven does or does not do. Awful to me implies being a bottom third of the league secondary, gives up long completions a good amount of the time, and doesn't make game changing plays. And personally I just find that ridiculous to assume that is what is going to happen before the start of the season based on what has actually happened the last two years. Especially when we're returning the same players and coaching staff.
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Huge huge difference between Chris Harper and Percy Harvin.
Not comparing the two brother. I know Harvin when healthy is one of the most explosive players in the game, but weapons for Wilson don't seem to be lacking if harper continues to impress and pushes Tate to the slot (his best position IMO).

Obviously Harvin would be a nice upgrade, but Rice, Harper, and Tate is still a good receiving corps. I guess all I'm saying is that to me, Harvin isn't the reason Sea is considered a top team. He's a cog but not the most important one and while they may not be able to fully/truly replace him, I think they will still do well despite losing him. Tough D, good run game, good QB, descent skill position players and solid depth. Obviously it would be nice to have Harvin, but I think he's a luxury in my eyes, so they should still be pretty good.
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Old 07-27-2013, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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But to discredit the end of 2012 - two terrific road playoff performances and one of the most dominant runs in the history of the league - that was straight up WRONG and deserved to be picked apart.
this is the only point im gonna answer. I think a few 50 point blowouts is overhyped. They caught fire for a few weeks and caught a few opponents on bad weeks. I was impressed, dont get me wrong, but Im not gonna annoint them the next great team b/c they caught fire for a few games.

As far as the playoffs, weve been over this, I was not impressed. They played like **** in the first half of both games. They are clearly a superior team than the Redskins and let their asses get kicked up and down the field the first half, and if not for RG3s injury, that comeback probably doesnt happen.

And against the Falcons, after your contentious argument about how Im full of **** that the Falcons took their foot of the gas, I went back and watched a lot of that game, and couldnt help but notice how much less aggressive the Falcons were in the second half. They werent blitzing, they were keeping their safeties deep, they were calling predictable runs up the middle with Michael Turner. Im not saying Russell Wilson didnt do a great job of making plays or that the defense didnt step it up big time in the second half, but its something we see a lot in sports where a team thinks they have the game in the bag and tries to kick it into coast mode and just kill the clock and then has a hard time stepping back on the gas when the game gets close, and I think thats what hapenned.

You can keep blathering about how this isnt actual analysis. But I watched the games in their entirety and have now gone back and rewatched large portions of them. And this is my take on them.
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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I'm sorry but Harvin is a massive upgrade to the receiving core is healthy. Tate made strides but he is maybe a decent starter while Harvin looked like an mvp candidate at times last year. If Harvin is lost it is a major blow on par with the 49ers losing Crabtree. I liked Harper coming out but a rookie receiver shouldn't relied on for anything. Even with Harvin this group of receivers isn't that super impressive. They are pretty damn good, but not one of the best cores.
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Old 07-27-2013, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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That's the point. There isn't one.

Guys in this thread are talking about the Seahawks and 49ers like they're stacked at every position and on the path to becoming the next 70s Steelers dynasty type of team, which they most certainly *aren't*.
Im not trying to argue with the troll, but I just want to make the point to everyone, which is that I believe the 49ers are doing exactly that. Seahawks have great talent, but Im not sold they are at that level. With the Niners, I am.

I believe we are seeing the beginning of a dynasty in SF. Great young coach, great coaching staff (and Ive talked about this before I think theres a good chance Fangio and Roman both stay in SF as coordinators rather than go for head coaching gigs). Great GM in Baalke who does a great job of bringing in steady stream of young talent. They have the best offensive line in the league, and it is made up of young players that they have locked up long term - Iupati, Staley and Davis have all received extensions. Amazing young QB who is in the perfect situation with a QB guru coaching him. Plenty of weapons in the passing game. Vernon Davis is an elite TE in his prime, Crabtree is hurt but he will be back and he emerged as a true no. 1 receiver last year and had great chemistry with kaepernick. They couldnt be set up better for the future at running back with Gore, James, Hunter and now Lattimore to be Gore's successor.

On defense, maybe the best LB core in the history of the game? and they are all young and not going to be FAs any time soon. Im pretty sure Willis, Bowman and Brooks are all extended and Aldon still has a couple years left on his rookie deal. Justin Smith is still dominant but he will retire soon, but that is why they are developing guys like tank carradine and lawrence okoye. Not to mention the always underappreciated Ray McDonald. NT is an issue, but finding an effective nose tackle to clog stuff up is usually not that hard.


And what is all this flack about the secondary. Losing Goldson hurts, but this is still a good secondary. Whittner is an above average starting safety. Namdhi is only a couple years removed from being an elite corner and still has all the physical talent and will be going to a system that better fits his strengths (lets face it, Philly was just a bad fit for Namdhi, theres no way he's gonna continue to struggle like that now that hes playing man-to-man again. I could easily see him regaining pro bowl form. Carlos Rogers has always been a solid player and is only one year removed from a pro bowl season. Chris Culliver I have always felt is very underrated and Ive been saying since his rookie year he is going to develop into a quality starting corner and still absolutely believe that. Tarrell Brown is a solid 2 or 3 that plenty of teams would love to have. And guys that most people dont know about like Trumaine Brock and Trenton Robinson are actually pretty good. And thats the thing about what is going on with SF right now - its not that different from what weve seen in Baltimore. They just churn out quality defenders. They have great leadership from guys like Pat Willis and Justin Smith, great teachers, great coaches, great talent evaluators. And thats why when people doubt a guy like Eric Reid, I give the 49ers the benefit of the doubt. I expect him to start and play well. I dont think he will be as good as Goldson, but I dont see him being a liability either. All in all, they have probably the deepest group of cornerbacks in the league, and what I expect to be a solid starting safety duo. so I dont know what all the hate on their secondary is. And when you consider they have the best front 7 in the league, they dont need to have an elite secondary.

I expect the 49ers to win multiple SBs and be in contention pretty much every year under with the combo of Harbaugh/Kaepernick/Pat Willis
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Old 07-27-2013, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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Harvin is a huge upgrade. However he wasn't on the team last season and they did just fine without him. Losing Harvin isn't a downgrade from last season, the 49ers losing Crabtree is, however picking up Boldin helps to make up for that.

I have faith in Rice, Tate and Baldwin so I'm not really worried.
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Old 07-27-2013, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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Congrats you predicted an injury and that player got injured. I said that was fine to predict an injury with Harvin. I personally don't predict injuries because everyone can get injured at any moment. I also wrote that as a concern of mine (2012 was a healthy year which was a huge part of how well they played). This is a blow to what could have been, but the offense was plenty capable without him.
My point was the Seahawks gave up a hefty package and gave a huge contract to an injury prone player who also has some personality/attitude issues. And I thought it was a mistake. And you jumped all over me about how he was healthy and he is a game-changer. And a few weeks later hes already hurt. My point was for him to be making 20 mill more than Victor Cruz over the course of the same length of contract is ridiuclous. ANd thats not how you build winning teams. You dont do it by making bad trades and giving up draft picks and bloated contracts. The Seahawks coulda kept that pick and used it to draft a right tackle in a draft full of good offensive linemen.


I look at the 49ers offseason - making smart moves like trading Alex Smith for future picks, picking up Anquan Boldin and Namdi for super cheap. Im still lukewarm about their plan at FS, but if they do what I expect and start Reid at FS this year and then next year move him to SS and bring in a more coverage-oriented guy to play FS, I love it. As great as Goldson was, the 49ers have to make tough choices about who they hand out extensions to, and the Bucs gave him a lot of $$.

Point is, I see one team setting themselves up for success, and another one getting a little carried away with themselves thinking they are on the cusp of a Super Bowl - a la the 2011 Philadelphia Eagles.
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