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View Poll Results: Who goes further this season from the NFC West?
San Francisco 58 45.31%
Seattle 70 54.69%
Voters: 128. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-27-2013, 07:46 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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Right now I'm wishing we'd drafted Cordarrelle Patterson instead of trading for Percy. :'-(
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Old 07-27-2013, 08:15 PM    (permalink
Eazy Picks
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Right now I'm wishing we'd drafted Cordarrelle Patterson instead of trading for Percy. :'-(
Vikings signed Greg Jennings to basically the exact same contract that Harvin got. Both players have injuries issues, but I feel Jennings has been more consistent throughout his career and hasnt really had any major injuries. And no way will I listen to anyone tell me for a second Harvin is better receiver than Jennings. In terms of route running, hands and football IQ, they are not even on the same plane. Harvin has better YAC ability, but Jennings is pretty strong in that department himself. Even though Harvin is faster, Id prefer to have Jennings running deep routes and stretching defenses because of his superior ball skills.

Oh, and the Vikes got Cordarelle Patterson for free out of the deal.
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Old 07-27-2013, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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I really just can't imagine neither Kaep nor Russell will struggle next year as they are given more responsibilities and teams have more tap on them. Add that to some concerns about the 9ers DL outside of Justin Smith, the questionable secondary and dwindling stock of weapons in the pass game and I really don't think the 9ers will be the best team in the league and make it out of the NFC again.

Seahawks have their own problems to as their also having problems with their receivers, and their defense was built off of that secondary just being exceptional. A serious injury to one of the big 4 or untimely suspension really takes away what makes them so special. Now Earl Thomas does a lot and as long as he's back there they'll still be effective, but the rely so heavily on the secondary to be spectacular that I think it's hard to expect them to have that every game, every year, at least not to the extent they were beasting last year.

I see both teams taking steps back from where they were last season, with the one who's second year QB struggles hardest falling behind the rams.
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Old 07-27-2013, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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I think both CK and Wilson are going to be better in 2013 than they were last year.

Good QBs don't regress, they become more efficient.
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Old 07-27-2013, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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My point was the Seahawks gave up a hefty package and gave a huge contract to an injury prone player who also has some personality/attitude issues. And I thought it was a mistake. And you jumped all over me about how he was healthy and he is a game-changer. And a few weeks later hes already hurt. My point was for him to be making 20 mill more than Victor Cruz over the course of the same length of contract is ridiuclous. ANd thats not how you build winning teams. You dont do it by making bad trades and giving up draft picks and bloated contracts. The Seahawks coulda kept that pick and used it to draft a right tackle in a draft full of good offensive linemen.


I look at the 49ers offseason - making smart moves like trading Alex Smith for future picks, picking up Anquan Boldin and Namdi for super cheap. Im still lukewarm about their plan at FS, but if they do what I expect and start Reid at FS this year and then next year move him to SS and bring in a more coverage-oriented guy to play FS, I love it. As great as Goldson was, the 49ers have to make tough choices about who they hand out extensions to, and the Bucs gave him a lot of $$.

Point is, I see one team setting themselves up for success, and another one getting a little carried away with themselves thinking they are on the cusp of a Super Bowl - a la the 2011 Philadelphia Eagles.
My point was it doesn't matter what guys are making or what draft picks a guy was traded for when they're on the field. I've tried to keep this debate ON THE FIELD the entire time. Trying to predict WHAT WILL HAPPEN ON THE FIELD.

Debating the trade and his contract is irrelevant to this season when the two teams strap them up. You could have done that in the 'Harvin traded to SEA' thread.

Harvin was healthy. He got hurt when he was healthy. I wasn't wrong. I didn't even try to argue that he wouldn't get hurt. I just pointed out that he was healthy at the time.

But Harvin is now hurt. +1 to you. You and about a million Vikings followers forecasted this and now it's happened. It sucks. Harvin is now hurt therefore the Seahawks will have to revert back to the offense they trotted out there last year - which was plenty capable. Does that prove that they're not as good as the Niners? Hell no.

This does not compare to losing Crabtree, Kaepernick's favorite target, because Harvin was never even on this offense.

A trio of X Tate Z Rice H Baldwin isn't bad at all.

And since we're back at it - let me give you MY TAKE on Boldin and Nnamdi, supposed 'smart' moves.

Boldin is an average outside WR with good instincts for the slot. He's old and slow. All people remember is his incredible postseason. That's not the player they're getting. He's in a new system with a new QB who loved the guy Boldin will perhaps try to replace.

Nnamdi has played two seasons at a borderline atrocious level. To expect a revival from him would be extremely suspect and would make me question if you have any biases. Niner fans even admit Nnamdi has proven to be a bad player the past two seasons.

And the Philly 2011 comparison sucks. These are two completely different situations. It's a worthless narrative. Vick was their QB and their defense sucked.
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Old 07-27-2013, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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I will gladly take any monetary action from anyone interested in the Rams finishing higher than the Niners.
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Old 07-27-2013, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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Right now I'm wishing we'd drafted Cordarrelle Patterson instead of trading for Percy. :'-(
As a big Patterson fan and someone who thinks this team can win it all THIS YEAR, I agree with you right now (assuming Harvin is out OR doesn't play more than 10 games this year - 90% chance one of those will happen at this point).

But it's not over for Harvin. If he misses this year we'll have to cross our fingers every year but it's possible he'll play and make a good impact at some point in his career.

What would have been the BEST move:

Trade what we traded for Harvin to move up for Tavon Austin.

Now the Rams don't have him, we're paying him 1/8 of what Harvin's owed and we have a durable slot playmaker. Then we might even have enough confidence to get something back for Baldwin.
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Old 07-27-2013, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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My point was it doesn't matter what guys are making or what draft picks a guy was traded for when they're on the field. I've tried to keep this debate ON THE FIELD the entire time. Trying to predict WHAT WILL HAPPEN ON THE FIELD.

Debating the trade and his contract is irrelevant to this season when the two teams strap them up. You could have done that in the 'Harvin traded to SEA' thread.

Harvin was healthy. He got hurt when he was healthy. I wasn't wrong. I didn't even try to argue that he wouldn't get hurt. I just pointed out that he was healthy at the time.

But Harvin is now hurt. +1 to you. You and about a million Vikings followers forecasted this and now it's happened. It sucks. Harvin is now hurt therefore the Seahawks will have to revert back to the offense they trotted out there last year - which was plenty capable. Does that prove that they're not as good as the Niners? Hell no.

This does not compare to losing Crabtree, Kaepernick's favorite target, because Harvin was never even on this offense.

A trio of X Tate Z Rice H Baldwin isn't bad at all.

And since we're back at it - let me give you MY TAKE on Boldin and Nnamdi, supposed 'smart' moves.

Boldin is an average outside WR with good instincts for the slot. He's old and slow. All people remember is his incredible postseason. That's not the player they're getting. He's in a new system with a new QB who loved the guy Boldin will perhaps try to replace.

Nnamdi has played two seasons at a borderline atrocious level. To expect a revival from him would be extremely suspect and would make me question if you have any biases. Niner fans even admit Nnamdi has proven to be a bad player the past two seasons.

And the Philly 2011 comparison sucks. These are two completely different situations. It's a worthless narrative. Vick was their QB and their defense sucked.
1. i get sick of all your "on the field" argument. Because what happens off the field does a lot to dictate what will happen on the field. You can disagree, but I believe off-field distractions, contract issues, team chemistry, bloated expectations, leaderhsip, etc etc all plays a huge role in how a team will play on the field and how well they will handle adversity. Theres no way to ignore it and just focus on solely Xs and Os. Thats how I feel about it.

2. Rice-Tate-Baldwin...No im not feeling it. Rice is about as likely to play a full season as Harvin, Tate is extremely overrated in my mind and mostly just good at getting open on broken plays (which there are admittedly a lot of on the Seattle offense, but is that really a good thing?) Having him as a go-to receiver? No, im not feeling it. Baldwin I like for what he is, but cmon his ceiling is very limited. And where is the depth after that when Sidney Rice gets hurt? there is none.

3. Youre dead wrong about Boldin, he is still one of the games best possession receivers and probably the best blocking receiver in the game. In a run-oriented offense that uses a lot of zone reads, having a WR who can seal the edge is huge. Boldin is a perfect fit for this offense. And hes also the perfect guy to replace Crabtree, because he has a similar skillset as a possesion receiver.I remember when the 49ers traded for Boldin and I said to myself "nice pickup, but isnt it a little redundant to have Boldin and Crabtree? theyre basically the same player, just Boldin is older". Boldin is better than any receiver on the Seahawks, as is Crabtree. And he will be back this year, from what I hear he is progressing quite well. Oh, and the 49ers have this guy called Vernon Davis who is one of the most dangerous and versatile offensive weapons in this league and he never gets hurt. And in terms of WR and TE depth, gotta go with the Niners as well.

4. Namdi - I just believe Philly was a horrible fit for him. I not only believe the scheme was terrible for him, but also that he just never really jived with the city or the team. Hes coming back to the bay area where he went to college and had his best years as a pro and is extremely involved in the community and will also be playing in a scheme that better suits him. I expect a revival. If you want to write off a guy who was a true shutdown corner for about 5 years because he had a couple bad years with a new team, go ahead. But hes still young enough and I watched how great he was with the Raiders and expect big things from him.

5. The Philly comparison is pretty damn good if you ask me. Vick is the closest NFL comparison to Russell Wilson, so its funny you bring that up. But besides that, it wasnt even Vicks fault that the Eagles struggled so much. The similarities I see:
- a team that had an incredible and exciting run in the second half of the season
- played very thrilling playoff game that they lost
- made a bunch of splashy moves in FA and got annointed SB favorites
- reliance on a QB who does a lot of damage improvising and not running a very structured offense. (and before you start telling me how Wilson is a true pocket passer, answer me this: Vick led all QBs in avg time to throw in 2011, but Wilson led this year with 3.35 seconds, nearly .3 seconds more than the second-most guy (Vick) who took 3.07 seconds. If you look at the rankings in this category, the QBs are very tightly bunched, w/ Wilson way out in front of the pack)
-And what is this no-defense talk? The defense was strong in 2010 and was supposed to be way better in 2011. Just their splashy FA signings didnt pan out. We'll see how much they end up getting out of Avril, Bennett, Winfield. Instead of building on what they had (like what the 49ers are currently doing), they tried to just go sign a bunch of guys b/c they thought they were so close to being a Super Bowl team and that would put them over the top. But if you look at teams that won the Super Bowl recently, its generally teams that built through the draft and have great chemistry and continuity.

To me, there are quite a bit of similarities. But ultimately, I believe the demise of the Eagles was overconfidence, bloated expectations, injuries and inability to overcome adversity. And I believe that could be an issue the Seahawks may well run into.


6. There is no bias here. Im not a 49er fan in the slightest. Im an NFL fan. If theres any bias in this argument, its coming from you.

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Old 07-27-2013, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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I guess we have to agree to disagree about contract situations. I don't think they affect anything on the field. I don't think the fact that the Seahawks paid Harvin a monster deal will somehow translate into poor play from the other players.

As for leadership and team chemistry - I agree with you. Where is your evidence that Seattle is weak in these areas? The OL has continuity, Wilson's been impeccable as a leader from what we know and the secondary hangs out with each other. And the team chemistry was pretty damn impressive last year when they were messing up everyone. The entire team returns minus LeRoy Hill and Trufant - two weak links. Why would they not have team chemistry? Because they added a pass rusher?

Bloated expectations will doom this team? Come on. You expect them to all fold because the pressure is too much? That's what stupid sports talk shows say to spice up the story rather than just saying a team played poorly. If they fail to live up to expectations it won't be because expectations existed. Every team and player in the NFL is under a whole lot of pressure. Good teams have higher expectations. Such is life. You are actually putting stock into what the media says as something that affects the game. I'll repeat - with this comment you are admitting that teams are affected by the media and/or fans. That's ridiculous. Teams win and lose because of themselves, other teams, and officials. The media and fans have absolutely NO say in what happens on the field. To think otherwise is foolish and naive.

The Philly defense had a few nice pieces and added free agents. They expected those guys to make them a top unit. The Seahawks defense was dominant, the best in the league statistically (and don't try to argue they weren't top 2 last year) and added free agents. There's a gigantic difference. They were the best damn D in the league. Are you really projecting a defensive performance at all comparable to the 2011 Eagles? Really? A defense that was absolutely horrid? That's who these Hawks compare to? Come on.

Comparing Vick to Wilson is ridiculous. Almost all of Vick's flaws are from the mental side of the game - which is Wilson's strength. He's a terrific scrambler but no where near the runner Vick was.

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Old 07-27-2013, 11:04 PM    (permalink
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Vikings signed Greg Jennings to basically the exact same contract that Harvin got. Both players have injuries issues, but I feel Jennings has been more consistent throughout his career and hasnt really had any major injuries. And no way will I listen to anyone tell me for a second Harvin is better receiver than Jennings. In terms of route running, hands and football IQ, they are not even on the same plane. Harvin has better YAC ability, but Jennings is pretty strong in that department himself. Even though Harvin is faster, Id prefer to have Jennings running deep routes and stretching defenses because of his superior ball skills.

Oh, and the Vikes got Cordarelle Patterson for free out of the deal.
Greg Jenning is basically on a two year contract. But Harvin ran quite a few deep routes last year. Percy is much better football player than Jennings. That being said, I'm much happier with Jennings and Patterson than Percy on that contract.
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Old 07-27-2013, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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Nice lead for the SeaChickens in this poll..... anyone here not yet cast a vote?

Injuries may decide this race.
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Old 07-27-2013, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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So why isn't it swinging in the 49ers way now with Harvin getting injured is his injury not serious enough? Crabs will be back by season starts IMO.
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Old 07-27-2013, 11:30 PM    (permalink
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So why isn't it swinging in the 49ers way now with Harvin getting injured is his injury not serious enough? Crabs will be back by season starts IMO.
Oh dear God
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:00 AM    (permalink
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The trade for Harvin looks really steep right now. A 1st and a 3rd plus that contract. Him not playing doesn't make them worse immediately but missing those picks and having that money wrapped up could limit them in the near future.
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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The trade for Harvin looks really steep right now. A 1st and a 3rd plus that contract. Him not playing doesn't make them worse immediately but missing those picks and having that money wrapped up could limit them in the near future.
Sherman and Browner need to be paid, Wilson is on a rookie contract. They did lock up Chancellor.

With the Harvin injury the Seahawks need to unleash Zach Miller. He finally came on in the playoffs. I don't know if he is being used as a blocker or what but they are under utilizing him as a pass catcher.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:33 AM    (permalink
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So why isn't it swinging in the 49ers way now with Harvin getting injured is his injury not serious enough? Crabs will be back by season starts IMO.
2014 season? I agree
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:45 AM    (permalink
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2014 season? I agree
Even then he might not be back with the 49ers. Contract negotiations coming off a major injury with his personality should be interesting.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:57 AM    (permalink
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Sherman and Browner need to be paid, Wilson is on a rookie contract. They did lock up Chancellor.

With the Harvin injury the Seahawks need to unleash Zach Miller. He finally came on in the playoffs. I don't know if he is being used as a blocker or what but they are under utilizing him as a pass catcher.
Miller will be the highest paid player on the Seahawks roster this year, with an 11 mill cap hit, so theyre gonna need him to earn that $$. In 4 years with the Raiders, Miller was catching 50 to 60 passes a year for 600 to 800 yards a year. After signing a 35 mill contract with the Seahawks, he has been a phantom in their offense, playing in nearly every game, but receiving for only 600 yards and 3 TDs. He is a serious x-factor because I know hes capable of much more than that. Im not a big believer in the Seahawks WR core, but do believe he has the ability to be an effective safety valve for Wilson.
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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Crabtree & Harvin Injuries

Not sure what the deal is with Harvin or how long/what it all is, but aside from last year when he checked out, he was always questionable with nagging stuff but he usually played and was effective.

We'll see what happens with this......but Harvin is very important to them, just not quite like Crabtree since CK had already fallen in love with Crab and he had already been his favorite target.

Wilson didn't have Harvin last year. His favorite guys from last year Rice, Tate, etc. are still there. A bit different.

Harvin was an addition, Crabtree was already the relied-upon go-to-guy for the young QB.
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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Crabtree & Harvin Injuries

Not sure what the deal is with Harvin or how long/what it all is, but aside from last year when he checked out, he was always questionable with nagging stuff but he usually played and was effective.

We'll see what happens with this......but Harvin is very important to them, just not quite like Crabtree since CK had already fallen in love with Crab and he had already been his favorite target.

Wilson didn't have Harvin last year. His favorite guys from last year Rice, Tate, etc. are still there. A bit different.

Harvin was an addition, Crabtree was already the relied-upon go-to-guy for the young QB.
Giving up a 1st round pick for a guy that may give them no productivity still costs Seattle. Could have gone toward Cordarelle Patterson or another playmaker on the team.
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Old 07-28-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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I guess we have to agree to disagree about contract situations. I don't think they affect anything on the field. I don't think the fact that the Seahawks paid Harvin a monster deal will somehow translate into poor play from the other players.

As for leadership and team chemistry - I agree with you. Where is your evidence that Seattle is weak in these areas? The OL has continuity, Wilson's been impeccable as a leader from what we know and the secondary hangs out with each other. And the team chemistry was pretty damn impressive last year when they were messing up everyone. The entire team returns minus LeRoy Hill and Trufant - two weak links. Why would they not have team chemistry? Because they added a pass rusher?

Bloated expectations will doom this team? Come on. You expect them to all fold because the pressure is too much? That's what stupid sports talk shows say to spice up the story rather than just saying a team played poorly. If they fail to live up to expectations it won't be because expectations existed. Every team and player in the NFL is under a whole lot of pressure. Good teams have higher expectations. Such is life. You are actually putting stock into what the media says as something that affects the game. I'll repeat - with this comment you are admitting that teams are affected by the media and/or fans. That's ridiculous. Teams win and lose because of themselves, other teams, and officials. The media and fans have absolutely NO say in what happens on the field. To think otherwise is foolish and naive.

The Philly defense had a few nice pieces and added free agents. They expected those guys to make them a top unit. The Seahawks defense was dominant, the best in the league statistically (and don't try to argue they weren't top 2 last year) and added free agents. There's a gigantic difference. They were the best damn D in the league. Are you really projecting a defensive performance at all comparable to the 2011 Eagles? Really? A defense that was absolutely horrid? That's who these Hawks compare to? Come on.

Comparing Vick to Wilson is ridiculous. Almost all of Vick's flaws are from the mental side of the game - which is Wilson's strength. He's a terrific scrambler but no where near the runner Vick was.
I dont buy into the media-hype nonsense...But I think there are some more subtle effects. When I watched the Philly team in 2011, I saw a team that stepped on the field and just expected to blow people out, and got frustrated when it didnt work out like that. As far as leadership, I guess my issue is more than anything with the coaching staff. I am not a big believer in Pete Carrolls character. I think he is an excellent talent evaluator and has done a hell of a job bringing together an incredibly talented group of players in Seattle, but I watched the way he built the USC program up and then ran it into the ground and split right before they hit the wall - not a high character kind of guy IMO. And I know this is kind of beside the point of what happens on the field, but it just sickens me that he goes on TV and does interviews and says that the failmary was the right call. Have a little class. To me, that was a slap in the face to every NFL fan in the world....And losing their DC is a major blow to the leadership of a great defense. And while I agree with you on Russell Wilson being a strong leader, he is only in his 2nd year. You need to have veteran leaders on the team, and Im not sure I see many. I guess there is Antoine Winfield, but he is new to the team. They lost Trufant, who may not have been a great player anymore (but still underrated IMO), but was with the team a long time and did provide some leadership (he has always been a high-character, true pro). Dont expect Cliff Avril to bring anything good to the table leadership-wise, ive heard nothing but bad things about him. Losing Alan Branch as a leader on the DL doesnt get talked about nearly as much, and who knows when Chris Clemons, another veteran leader on the DL, will be back in action....I could be proved wrong, but there are some questions there....Its certainly not like the Niners where you have a great coaching staff that is maintaining continuity, and high-character veteran leaders like Justin Smith, Pat Willis, Donte Whitner, Vernon Davis, Anquan Boldin, Joe Staley Frank Gore, and the list goes on.


But I do think youre wrong when you say that the players dont let the media and fans affect them at all. Maybe veteran players and veteran teams are able to block all of that out, but a younger team like the Seahawks I think is definitely susceptible to letting it affect them at least on some subtle level...Im pretty damn sure Richard Sherman listens to everything said about him - hence that brick-sized chip on his shoulder and his need to explain to people why he is the best corner in the league.

The difference b/w Philly and Seattle is the Eagles were offense-oriented, and the Seahawks are defense-oriented. I dont think the Seahawk offense is anywhere near as talented as the Eagles "dream team" was. And no, the Eagles D isnt anywhere near as good as the Seahawks current unit (which is among the leagues elite). But I think the hype machine surrounding them was similar.

And I agree with your assessment on Wilson v Vick. Wilson's mental game is far and above Vick's, and he has the benefit of a much-better supporting cast than Vick ever had in Atlanta. He is not nearly the runner Vick was, but has a similar running style, if that makes sense. They both rely a lot on improvising outside the pocket.
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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4. Namdi - I just believe Philly was a horrible fit for him. I not only believe the scheme was terrible for him, but also that he just never really jived with the city or the team. Hes coming back to the bay area where he went to college and had his best years as a pro and is extremely involved in the community and will also be playing in a scheme that better suits him. I expect a revival. If you want to write off a guy who was a true shutdown corner for about 5 years because he had a couple bad years with a new team, go ahead. But hes still young enough and I watched how great he was with the Raiders and expect big things from him.

5. The Philly comparison is pretty damn good if you ask me. Vick is the closest NFL comparison to Russell Wilson, so its funny you bring that up. But besides that, it wasnt even Vicks fault that the Eagles struggled so much. The similarities I see:
Aso is just bad, the situation in Philly may not have been the best...but he was horrible in press coverage as well. The guy took a massive step back and that is all there is to it. You got him for a bargain because no one else wanted him. If you get anything out of him I am happy for you...I was so psyched when we got him because I got to see him in Oakland, but hes nowhere near that level anymore.

Russell and Vick are nothing alike. Russell is a pocket passer first, gets rid of the ball quickly and was extremely efficient. Vick is an athlete first, takes sack after sack, and is efficient in giving the ball up.

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So why isn't it swinging in the 49ers way now with Harvin getting injured is his injury not serious enough? Crabs will be back by season starts IMO.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Vick and Wilson are incredibly different. They both run sometimes I guess? Vick uses his legs to run and Wilson uses his legs to get more time to pass.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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I think both CK and Wilson are going to be better in 2013 than they were last year.

Good QBs don't regress, they become more efficient.
Cute, but ultimately just as true as QBs who succeed their first years running simplified offenses struggle the next years when they're handed more responsibilities. They could be much better than last year and still produce less.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:21 PM    (permalink
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I will gladly take any monetary action from anyone interested in the Rams finishing higher than the Niners.
I do feel better about the 9ers than Hawks, but I really don't know which one I expect to disappoint. I would definitely put money on the Rams beating out one of the two teams if they're not decimated by injuries.
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