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View Poll Results: Who goes further this season from the NFC West?
San Francisco 58 45.31%
Seattle 70 54.69%
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:09 AM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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I like how everyone keeps talking about all the "talent" on the 49ers defense. But really, where is all that talent?


It's not in the secondary:

- Carlos Rogers, Nnamdi Asomugha, Donte Whitner are all broken-down old vets who can't be considered even top-25 DBs in the NFL, let alone top-10 DBs.
- Eric Reid is a rookie. Period. Rookies don't play on a high level in the NFL in the secondary. It rarely, rarely happens. Reid is making his fair share of mistakes and will continue to do so for this entire year.
- Tarrell Brown is an average player at best. He doesn't have any kind of pedigree, and it shows in his average athleticism. He can be a contributor on a great team with a great pass rush, but isolate him and you can expose him.
- The rest of the depth chart features a bunch of reheated leftovers from bad teams (Perrish Cox, Craig Dahl) or nobodies (CJ Spillman, Tramaine Brock).

It's not on the defensive line:

- Justin Smith is one of the best defensive linemen in the league, historically, but he's also well into his 30s, struggling with nagging injuries, and clearly on the downside of his career. It's not a question of "if" he goes down or loses effectiveness, but "when". And that "when" might already be here.
- Ray McDonald is a good, solid player, but nothing special. He, just like Aldon Smith, probably clearly benefited from Justin Smith's presence over the years. I wouldn't say McDonald is a sterling example of "talent" but rather just consistent and solid run-plugging DE.
- Outside of McDonald and the question-mark-laden Smith, there is nothing. Glenn Dorsey is a classic draft bust that was picked off the scrap heap and will contribute little. After then they have DeMarcus Dobbs and Tony Jerod-Eddie who are the definition of JAG.

So outside of that, you have the LB corps. Aldon Smith is a good player but clearly has off-the-field issues. And even beyond that, I'm hesitant to call him an elite player because his effectiveness without Justin Smith beasting has been called into question. He's a question mark at this point for multiple reasons. Ahmad Brooks is a solid player but nothing special. They clearly have the two best ILBs in the league in Bowman and Williis.

But with a bottom-10 secondary (which the 49ers clearly are at this point) and a bottom-10 DLine (*when*, not *if* Justin Smith shows the signs of aging or injury - and it might be that way already) you can't have a good defense.

The offense is another issue altogether with questions about Colin Kaepernick and a complete lack of talent in the WR corps... but the talk of all the "talent" on the defense has always perplexed me going back to the start of last year.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:12 AM    (permalink
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lol its not one particular thing, its just comment after comment about how great the Seahawks are, and just your general tone about how you were right about everything and blah blah blah. Gloat away when you win the SB. Until then, just calm down. Its 3 weeks, I currently have the Seahawks at the top of my power rankings, but things can change, and nobody cares who was at the top of the week 3 power rankings.

and lol at your 5th round TE from Rice had a better week 3 than the 49ers 2nd round TE from Rice is an "interesting stat". What on earth is interesting about that?
My general tone? What are you talking about? How I was right about everything? Show me. Never happened. You are just making **** up.

Get out. I comment on the Seahawks. When you argued they were overhyped, I argued against those arguments.

Now the season is going on and I will continue to comment on the Seahawks. They happen to be playing well right now. I'm sorry that annoys you so much, but don't act like I'm in here rubbing your face in it - you just think that for some reason.

"It's just comment after comment about how great they are." What would you like me to do - make **** up?

They're playing great right now. If you can't handle that truth then get out of the thread. I commented on Okung's injury, struggles of the passing game, etc. You're the one in here saying "I can't wait until they eat some humble pie." I'm just commenting on what I see.

And I've been commenting on the McDonald/Willson thing since it happened. It's very odd that a kid like that gets taken in the 5th round plus there were rumors Seattle wanted McDonald (Niners traded up to get him over Seattle). And both are from the powerhouse Rice. It's noteworthy to me. Feel free to ignore comments you don't care about. It's pretty easy.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
I like how everyone keeps talking about all the "talent" on the 49ers defense. But really, where is all that talent?

... but the talk of all the "talent" on the defense has always perplexed me going back to the start of last year.
OK. Go through every NFL team D and break them down for me now. I want to know how many teams have more overall "talent" on D compared to us, in your eyes. I really am interested in knowing, not trying to be a smart ass.

The D has not looked as good this year, but they have been on the field for a total of 37 minutes each game the past 2 games vs the Seahawks and Colts. I'm not gonna kill them as much as some others are doing so now until the O becomes more competent.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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OK. Go through every NFL team D and break them down for me now. I want to know how many teams have more overall "talent" on D compared to us, in your eyes. I really am interested in knowing, not trying to be a smart ass.
That's the point. The 49ers are just like any other team. They have holes in their roster. People were talking about this team as if they were one of the top-3 most talented rosters top-to-bottom in this league. That's just not the case. Overall, they are maybe like in the #8-12 range, and their defense as a whole is a bottom-16 unit.

Look at the Seahawks defense. You can look at their roster and point to individual talented young players.

In their secondary, Richard Sherman is a young talented top-5 corner. Brandon Browner is a physical beast. Earl Thomas is a good, really fast safety who fits their scheme perfectly. Kam Chancellor is one of the most physical young safeties in the league. That secondary is STACKED from top to bottom unlike the 49ers secondary which is filled with broken down vets and average young players.

In their DLine, you look at Red Bryant and Brandon Mebane who are both great defensive linemen in the prime of their careers. At pass rusher, they don't just have one OLB with question marks like the 49ers - they have a whole stable of guys who are elite edge rushers (Cris Clemons, Bruce Irvin, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennet).

Their ILBs are not as good as the 49ers but Bobby Wagner is maybe 90% of Patrick Willis or Navarro Bowman so it doesn't matter.



Quote:
The D has not looked as good this year, but they have been on the field for a total of 37 minutes each game the past 2 games vs the Seahawks and Colts. I'm not gonna kill them as much as some others are doing so now until the O becomes more competent.
You have to look at the roster. Where's the talent? Ask yourself that. Good defenses have TALENT. This 49ers defense has two great ILBs, an aging, on the decline elite DE, an OLB with all kinds of question marks on and off the field, and very little outside of that.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Russell Wilson isn't good enough to bring that team to the title game and win it yet, so they are overhyped I guess.
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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AcheTen just makes the NFL forum more hilarious. It's what he do and he can not be contained.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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Russell Wilson isn't good enough to bring that team to the title game and win it yet, so they are overhyped I guess.
He played the best football of his life in the playoffs last year....
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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AcheTen just makes the NFL forum more hilarious. It's what he do and he can not be contained.
I laid out info about the 49ers lack of talent in neatly formatted, info-packed form.

If you dispute my point, maybe you can actually, you know, tell me where I'm wrong on specific players?
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Why would I want to do that? That's far less amusing.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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Why would I want to do that? That's far less amusing.
Yeah, that's what I thought.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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Wait so Justin Smith is washed up, but Aldon Smith is only beasting it (3.5 sacks this year alone in 2 weeks) bc of how Justin Smith is playing.

Lulwut.

Keep being a terrible troll.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Wait so Justin Smith is washed up, but Aldon Smith is only beasting it (3.5 sacks this year alone in 2 weeks) bc of how Justin Smith is playing.

Lulwut.

Keep being a terrible troll.
That was the case last season when Smith went down...but yes, he did a horrible job of making that point regarding this season.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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Wait so Justin Smith is washed up, but Aldon Smith is only beasting it (3.5 sacks this year alone in 2 weeks) bc of how Justin Smith is playing.

Lulwut.

Keep being a terrible troll.
Yeah, just ignore 90% of my point entirely (which is mainly about the secondary first and foremost and its lack of talent) and focus in on one player that I'm not even all that concerned about, and that disregard that my point about Aldon Smith is mostly about off-the-field concerns and I mention the Justin Smith connection only as a sidenote.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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That was the case last season when Smith went down...but yes, he did a horrible job of making that point regarding this season.
That's perception. Smith's play dropped off after he tore his labrum. He played with a torn labrum and hid it from everyone. THAT'S why his play dropped off. Not because of Justin Smith.

This year he's healthy, Justin's play is starting to dip, and Aldon is still a monster. Not coincidence. He was always great, and it had nothing to do with Justin.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, just ignore 90% of my point entirely (which is mainly about the secondary first and foremost and its lack of talent) and focus in on one player that I'm not even all that concerned about, and that disregard that my point about Aldon Smith is mostly about off-the-field concerns and I mention the Justin Smith connection only as a sidenote.
So you're saying the secondary isn't good? Wow, thanks Barbara Walters for that hard-hitting and fresh report. We were all unaware.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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And SF isn't losing games bc of their defense. They're losing bc of their offense.

That defense is playing well. But trollers gotta troll.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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"hesitate to call (Aldon Smith) elite."

but...

Cris Clemons, Bruce Irvin, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett are all "elite."
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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"hesitate to call (Aldon Smith) elite."

but...

Cris Clemons, Bruce Irvin, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett are all "elite."
What he meant was that when they combine to make one player, they are elite.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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What he meant was that when they combine to make one player, they are elite.
They also combine to make one amazing Voltron.
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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My general tone? What are you talking about? How I was right about everything? Show me. Never happened. You are just making **** up.

Get out. I comment on the Seahawks. When you argued they were overhyped, I argued against those arguments.

Now the season is going on and I will continue to comment on the Seahawks. They happen to be playing well right now. I'm sorry that annoys you so much, but don't act like I'm in here rubbing your face in it - you just think that for some reason.

"It's just comment after comment about how great they are." What would you like me to do - make **** up?

They're playing great right now. If you can't handle that truth then get out of the thread. I commented on Okung's injury, struggles of the passing game, etc. You're the one in here saying "I can't wait until they eat some humble pie." I'm just commenting on what I see.

And I've been commenting on the McDonald/Willson thing since it happened. It's very odd that a kid like that gets taken in the 5th round plus there were rumors Seattle wanted McDonald (Niners traded up to get him over Seattle). And both are from the powerhouse Rice. It's noteworthy to me. Feel free to ignore comments you don't care about. It's pretty easy.
ill be first to admit the Seahawks are playing great right now, I have them at the top of my power rankings at the moment, a spot theyve earned.

But if you seriously dont think you've been gloating about it, I dont really know what to say. You really do remind me of Richard Sherman lol...Its cool though, this kind of stuff aint worth arguing about, lets just see how the season goes. Big road test in Houston this week. Ill be very impressed if the Seahawks come away with a win.
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:46 PM    (permalink
Eazy Picks
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Yeah, just ignore 90% of my point entirely (which is mainly about the secondary first and foremost and its lack of talent) and focus in on one player that I'm not even all that concerned about, and that disregard that my point about Aldon Smith is mostly about off-the-field concerns and I mention the Justin Smith connection only as a sidenote.
I dont see whats so terrible about the 49er secondary. Eric Reid is a great looking rookie, Donte Whittner is a very solid veteran SS, Carlos Rogers and Tarrell Brown are both solid starters at corner. Nmadhi is struggling some, but hes decent for a third cornerback. Losing Culliver definitely hurt, but the depth is not bad, guys like CJ Spillman, Trumaine Brock can play. Of course it is not nearly as good as the Seahawks, but we already knew that. The Seahawks have the best secondary in the league, it is the strength of their team.

The 49ers strength is their front 7. And while there is some cause for concern about their front 7 at this moment in time (aldon smith DUI, Ian Williams out for the year, Pat Willis maybe hurt, Ray McDonald maybe hurt, Justin Smith aging)...but its just way too early to say that the 49ers front 7 is no longer great. Through 3 games, they have not been the same as were used to, but they could easily pull out of the funk and go back to dominating.
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Eric Reid is a very promising rookie FS who has been an absolute stud so far.

But the rest of that secondary is mediocre at best. The 49ers mask it with a lot of Cover 2. When you have Willis and Bow patrolling the middle of the field you can get away with Cover 2 bc of their incredible range.

Linebackers make or break a Cover 2 defensive shell. The 49ers have the linebackers for it and mask a weak secondary with it.
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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Eric Reid is a very promising rookie FS who has been an absolute stud so far.

But the rest of that secondary is mediocre at best. The 49ers mask it with a lot of Cover 2. When you have Willis and Bow patrolling the middle of the field you can get away with Cover 2 bc of their incredible range.

Linebackers make or break a Cover 2 defensive shell. The 49ers have the linebackers for it and mask a weak secondary with it.
Yea I dont think the 49er secondary is anything special, I just dont think its the big weakness some (mostly just acheten) make it out to be. Compared to the rest of the league, Id say their secondary is pretty average. Their front 7 has been the best in the league, and a strong pass-rush and LBs who can cover with great range can make an average secondary look like a great one. Right now, the Front 7 is playing some pretty average football itself, and the secondary as a result hasnt looked as good. The 49ers never used to let teams run the ball like they have the last couple games, and I think there is some cause for real concern at this point.

Yea Eric Reid is sick I really like what Ive seen from him. That concussion looked bad but hopefully it wont affect him in the future. I think him and Vaccarro are both looking like future pro-bowlers.
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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Eric Reid has not been a "stud". He has made a lot of mistakes and missed quite a few tackles so far, and that's to be expected - he is a rookie.

It's next to impossible for rookie DBs to make a big impact and play at a high level in their rookie seasons. It just doesn't happen very often.

I personally was not high on Reid coming out of college, but he might still turn into a solid starter in the NFL. But it won't be THIS season.
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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I dont see whats so terrible about the 49er secondary. Eric Reid is a great looking rookie, Donte Whittner is a very solid veteran SS, Carlos Rogers and Tarrell Brown are both solid starters at corner. Nmadhi is struggling some, but hes decent for a third cornerback. Losing Culliver definitely hurt, but the depth is not bad, guys like CJ Spillman, Trumaine Brock can play. Of course it is not nearly as good as the Seahawks, but we already knew that. The Seahawks have the best secondary in the league, it is the strength of their team.
I know you're a homer, but if you actually watch the NFL, and watch alot of teams, you should be able to see that the 49ers secondary is literally a bottom-10 unit. It's one of the worst in the league, and it's SHOWED so far this season as QBs have no problems completing passes on them. They are counting on washed up vets (Asomugha, Witner, Rogers) at alot of positions, counting on a rookie FS (Reid) who is making mistakes and missing tackles, and the few young solid players they have are just that: merely solid at best (Brown).

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The 49ers strength is their front 7. And while there is some cause for concern about their front 7 at this moment in time (aldon smith DUI, Ian Williams out for the year, Pat Willis maybe hurt, Ray McDonald maybe hurt, Justin Smith aging)...but its just way too early to say that the 49ers front 7 is no longer great. Through 3 games, they have not been the same as were used to, but they could easily pull out of the funk and go back to dominating.

They have two elite ILBs, one formerly elite DE who is definitely on the downside of his career, and one OLB who is very good but not, in my mind, elite, and who has off-the-field issues that jeopardize his career. That's the entirety of their talent in their front seven. That's less than alot of teams in this league.
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