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Old 06-28-2013, 12:03 PM    (permalink
LonghornsLegend
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Did he really fall that far in the draft? I kinda thought that was the going rate for non blocking TE's who were primary pass catchers, and at the time he was drafted, it was the same class as Graham and Gronk so it's not really like there was a precedent for this type of player.


He wasnt a 1st round Vernon Davis type of guy, and I guess you could argue 2nd, but he seemed more like a 3rd rounder to me. I really don't recall all that well where he would have gone without any character risk so maybe someone knows that better then me.


I mean, if there were just weed concerns back then it shouldn't have made him fall very fall because him and Harvin you could say had similiar backgrounds coming out and he still went in the first.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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i think hernandez was an awesome player, he was only getting better too.

Thinkin about when he hurt his ankle last year and him playing injured, who knew at that point he could have possibly killed 2 people.

He always was seen as being quiet and reserved compared to gronk out partying, drinkin, and banging every girl he sees. Gronks behavior (which he has taken a TON of heat for for no reason, a good looking 23 year old millionaire is allowed to party) but all his actions are extremely mild compared to hernandez gunnin down fools lol
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, that all makes complete sense. I'm certainly not advocating a systematic dismissal of players from rough backgrounds. This is just such an extreme case with the preliminary ties to the other incident that occurred last year. I still think it's perfectly reasonable to hold the organization culpable to an extent. We're getting word now that some teams had Hernandez completely off their boards. It was always a little strange that he fell the way he did solely because of marijuana use(although I remember being personally skeptical of him as a player at the time. Oops.). I guess what I'm saying is that if you take a risk on a player with those sorts of ties, you damn well better be correct about that stuff being in the past. Especially if you then go and sign them to a lucrative extension. There's zero way to tell if anything more could have actually been done, but it didn't seem to be a very well hidden secret that Hernandez had some issues.
I too was really surprised how far he fell in the Draft, I thought he was an easy Top 50 pick, even if there were big questions about his ability to block in the NFL. As for the Patriots, at what point does the risk outweigh the reward when making a Draft selection? As it was they took him on the last day of the draft, really to me with a player with his upside they made the safe selection even with background concerns in Round 4.

I may not like the Patriots, but I respect the way their organization is run. I wish Jerry Jones could run an organization a fraction as well. So even if they had extensive knowledge of his background, I cannot fault them for making the selection they did nor in anyway hold them at all accountable to the community. Upon his arrest he was released within an hour. Unless they sent staff to help him destroy evidence, they have no blame in this at all. Sometimes you think you find the apple before it goes bad, this time there was seemingly no preventing it.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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I expect the Patriots will try to use Vareen as their new Hernandez. Meaning they'll use his versatility to dictate personnel groupings and mitigate his impact that way.

Vareen has RB/WR potential that can be used to force defenses to either matchup a LB or a safety on him. If he can show himself to be a great slot, then you have to wonder if you need a CB on him, which lightens the defense more.

Essentially, his versatility can be used in similar fashion to AH, and can give the Patriots a similar poker chip.
This. Vereen is gonna get a big uptick in production at the least, not just the Woodhead role but they will find creative ways to get him and Ridley on the field a bunch and I'm including Edelman in that conversation as well if he's 100%. I really like Vereen, big time explosive ability and I expect him to break out.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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Hernandez was an awesome piece for the NE offense and won't easily be replaced. However, b/c he was injured and missing time so often, it's not like the NE offense won't know how to cope. It's certainly not going to be the same without him but the game plan will shift and the offense will continue to be productive.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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I do think that we find ways to mitigate the loss, certainly. I'm just not all that enthusiastic about this happening with the transition the passing attack was already set to go through. It wouldn't surprise me if we're less effective there. Sometimes these things work themselves out and we're lucky enough to have one of the best of all time throwing the football, but yeah. Brady has done quite a bit with talent inferior to what we're throwing out this year in years past. We'll find out just how good our running game is this year though. We were able to run the setup the pass at times last year. Far cry from the way things were done around here before. Hopefully Ridley continues getting better and stays healthy.

Echoing the sentiment about Vereen. I've always been very high on the guy and he's shown some major flashes at this point. He has the talent, but we'll have to see if he can put it together. I'm far more interested in seeing how that plays out than whatever ends up happening with Tebow.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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Training camp has not opened yet. Who knows, maybe they dumb down the playbook and run less choice routes on the outside so their X and Z are more productive. It's a big reason why NE fails to develop WRs, they run a complex choice route offense that is very difficult to pick up for WRs right out of college.

It's a veteran friendly route tree, but it's torture for young guys.

So perhaps to accelerate the production on the outside with these young guys, they'll limit their choices to inside receivers and RBs. With outside guys running the standard route tree.

I think theres ways around this. Never count out the Patriots. Their coaching staff is top notch. They're probably doing an FMEA on their offense as we speak.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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It's amazing how much people's opinion shifts in a short amount of time. There were people saying how good Hernandez was (great never came up) and now he's replaceable.

I think many are overestimating how replaceable he is. I like Jake Ballard, Michael Hoomanuwai (sp), and Daniel Fells but they're not Hernandez combined.

Ballard is a good TE, can get some production, but he's not going to create mismatches like Hernandez. The other two are still questionable players in my mind.

The Patriots were counting on their TEs to lead the passing game this season, to carry the WRs for the year until they hit full speed and the rookies contribute. Losing one of the TEs hurts no matter what you say. It's not like this happened during the early offseason where they could just go out and grab Fred Davis or Dustin Keller.

It's probably going to take Ballard, Hoomanuwai (sp), Fells, Vereen and Washington to fill the complete void left by Hernandez.

In addition, Gronkowski's injury, from what I've seen, puts his timetable right at week 1. If there's any setback, any soreness he'll probably be held out.
I agree. The Pats offense has been better than the sum of it's parts for some time now but you can't keep losing guys like Welker and Hernandez and then drop it all on Brady to make something out of the replacements.

On a somewhat related topic i honestly think there is some potential there for Tebow to step into a slot position and shake some things up. Just having him on the field is going to make the defense have to guard against him running some sort of read option as well as catching the ball and god forbid even throwing it on occasion.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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I find it funny people just are assuming the Pats will be fine throwing in new people with Brady, and it will be the same as if they still had Welker and Hernandez.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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I find it funny people just are assuming the Pats will be fine throwing in new people with Brady, and it will be the same as if they still had Welker and Hernandez.
They done it with much worse around them, belichick runs a pretty brady friendly system. Everyone is also assuming gronk is out, but i think he will be ready to go come seasons start.

That being said, i do not think bradys arm is quite what it used to be. They will have their fair share of woes on offense, especially if/when amendola gets hurt. Should they have probably taken patterson or hunter with the 29th pick? yeah. Will they be ok? probably

Losing hernandez and welker is a huge blow, but i am pretty glad the steelers matched the offer sheet for sanders (wasnt really at the time) but i enjoy seeing them in a state of crippledness at the current time
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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The offense will survive but at this point in Bradys career they should be making it easier on him instead of forcing him to carry more of a burden. Losing Welker and Hernandez is a significant loss. Amendola might fill in but Wes had a great chemistry and was mostly healthy. They do have a bunch of other TEs and will get near 80% of the same numbers, but none of them are nearly as movable or as much of a threat. Amendola and Gronk both could miss time and then what would they do?
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Did he really fall that far in the draft? I kinda thought that was the going rate for non blocking TE's who were primary pass catchers, and at the time he was drafted, it was the same class as Graham and Gronk so it's not really like there was a precedent for this type of player.


He wasnt a 1st round Vernon Davis type of guy, and I guess you could argue 2nd, but he seemed more like a 3rd rounder to me. I really don't recall all that well where he would have gone without any character risk so maybe someone knows that better then me.


I mean, if there were just weed concerns back then it shouldn't have made him fall very fall because him and Harvin you could say had similiar backgrounds coming out and he still went in the first.
Not at all in my opinion, we're talking about a 6'2" 245 TE that was going to need an offense to cater to his ability, and thats what the Pats really did.

He was smaller and not overly athletic. We saw similar players go in the 3rd or 4th
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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I disagree about him being not overly athletic, hes not overly fast but hes a great athlete
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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In 2006, Brady had me, GF1080, DG151, and Brody to throw to. And he did just fine.

Brady do what Brady do. And let's give the coaching staff a ton of credit, bc the Patriots offense has changed a lot over the years and they do as good of a job as anyone at scheming towards their players strengths.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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I agree. The Pats offense has been better than the sum of it's parts for some time now but you can't keep losing guys like Welker and Hernandez and then drop it all on Brady to make something out of the replacements.

On a somewhat related topic i honestly think there is some potential there for Tebow to step into a slot position and shake some things up. Just having him on the field is going to make the defense have to guard against him running some sort of read option as well as catching the ball and god forbid even throwing it on occasion.
Amendola is a good player, but he's played in 12 games the past two seasons. Maybe it's just bad luck, but it still seems like it's wishful thinking, thinking he'll be around all season. In a year he did play 16 games, he got 8.1 yards per reception. Over his career he averages only 8.8 yards a reception. Maybe it was the scheme, but he doesn't seem to have the make you miss that Welker did.

People argue that the Pats have done more with less talent in the past, while I think that may be true, it's hard to compare 2013 with things that happens almost a decade ago.

IF Gronk is healthy then he opens up and makes the defense respect the weapons, but if not, the defense can really put some pressure on the offense. It will be a very vanilla, ground and pound offense in likeliness. Will the defense be good enough to allow keep the offense in games so that Brady can go downfield and the kicker get a last minute FG?

This is what will likely decide the Patriots fate, will they win the close games this season as they have seemed to do in the past or will they lose those close games?
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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One of the other suspects in the murder turned himself in

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/28...hernandez-pal/
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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I'm betting those other guys start to flip on Hernandez. They don't have millions to use for defense.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
In 2006, Brady had me, GF1080, DG151, and Brody to throw to. And he did just fine.

Brady do what Brady do. And let's give the coaching staff a ton of credit, bc the Patriots offense has changed a lot over the years and they do as good of a job as anyone at scheming towards their players strengths.
If I remember right they had the #2 defense in the NFL that year. Their D might be improved this year over the last couple but I don't think anyone expects top 5.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:52 PM    (permalink
WCH
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Yeah, I also think that there's some revisionist history regarding Hernandez and his draft stock. I mean, all of the talk was about Gresham and Gronk being the two best TEs that year. Gresham was the 21st pick and Gronk fell to the 42nd because of injury concerns. Those were the only TEs who went in the first two rounds, and I doubt Hernandez would have changed that even if he had been a choir boy.

At the time nobody was overly surprised, from a talent standpoint, that Ed Dickson and Jimmy Graham went ahead of Hernandez. That leaves us with Tony Moeaki as the only head-scratcher.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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If Hoomanauanui is finally fully healthy, he has the skills to do a lot of the same type of things that Hernandez did. He had a lot of promise in St. Louis, but got injured early in his career and never really made it back from that.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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I'm betting those other guys start to flip on Hernandez. They don't have millions to use for defense.
They're probably singing like a Canary right now. They can pretty much say anything and it's hard for Hernandez's defense to argue because then they would be admitting they were there.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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They're probably singing like a Canary right now. They can pretty much say anything and it's hard for Hernandez's defense to argue because then they would be admitting they were there.
Oh, it's all over. They will say everything they need to know especially the one that turned himself in.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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Awesome.

http://www.patriots.com/news/article...8-29f1e551b228

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FOXBOROUGH, Mass. – The New England Patriots ProShop will offer a free jersey exchange of any #81 Hernandez jersey purchased at the Patriots ProShop or online at PatriotsProShop.com for a new Patriots jersey of comparable value. The free jersey exchange will be available exclusively at the Patriots ProShop the weekend of Saturday, July 6 and Sunday, July 7.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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