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Old 07-15-2013, 07:01 PM    (permalink
LonghornsLegend
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Trading him would have messed up their whole salary cap.
There are ways around that and it wouldn't have been that bad, we already saw the Jets were trying to trade Sanchez this off-season and if they had takers they probably would have and we see what his cap hit was gonna be. They didn't even have that many large contracts on the team at that time where it would have been that big of an issue, other then Steven Jackson I'm struggling to think of how many big contracts they had on the team that were actually good.


Bradford would have netted a significant price because he was still young and a bunch of teams would have to have a Sam Bradford, big contract or not.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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It's tough to have that much dead money on your roster for X amount of years. That combined with the picks was why they made the move.

I agree that they probably should have taken RGIII but it's just tough to sell that considering they would have a weak roster with few young players AND have to pay whatever the cost is in escalators and such for trading that gigantic contract.

If he had a post-wage-scale contract I believe they would have taken RGIII.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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It's very strange to me that some people rate Jay Cutler ahead of Cam Newton for seemingly no reason whatsoever. Cam has an equally crappy supporting cast on offense, and statistically is a much more impressive QB. It's not like Cutler has been this just wins games type guy so far in his career either.

Reading Jaworski's analysis he tears Newton apart for being inconsistent, and makes it sound like he needs to change his entire game to make it in the NFL. Then just a little bit down he makes it sound like Cutler just needs to tweak his game marginally to become this elite top 10 QB, when in fact Cutler has had 7 years to tweak his game, and to this day remains a flawed player.

Cam needs to improve his accuracy a bit, but today he's a better player than Cutler, and he has a far easier and clearer route to improve than Cutler.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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I'm not a huge Cutler fan but it's not his fault the NFC is ridiculously stacked (and that Wilson carved up his D and stole a win). He didn't make the playoffs but they won 10 games with him last year.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:52 PM    (permalink
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I'm not a huge Cutler fan but it's not his fault the NFC is ridiculously stacked (and that Wilson carved up his D and stole a win). He didn't make the playoffs but they won 10 games with him last year.
Wasn't that more a product of their defence and special teams?
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:55 PM    (permalink
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I'm not a huge Cutler fan but it's not his fault the NFC is ridiculously stacked (and that Wilson carved up his D and stole a win). He didn't make the playoffs but they won 10 games with him last year.
Yeah, but the offense only scored like 19 points a game in doing so, while being handed the ball 33 times off turnovers that didn't result in TD's. While having a rushing offense that accounted for almost 2000 yards on the ground at a 4.2 ypc clip.

Cutler was hardly the reason why they won 10 games last year.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Again, I don't like downgrading a guy because he wins/performs well with teammates, especially considering his OL.

Jaws is watching film with knowledge of what Cutler/Cam are looking at/for on every single snap. I trust his judgment. If he's got a guy with a 7 ypa ahead of a guy with better stats, it's a reason, and I think game situation/winning has a lot to do with it because he's not asked to put up stats in games his D is dominating. Same with his high ranking with Schaub.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, but the offense only scored like 19 points a game in doing so, while being handed the ball 33 times off turnovers that didn't result in TD's. Cutler was hardly the reason why they won 10 games last year.
Your point is valid about his stats. But "hardly"? Come on. The QB is always a huge reason for success. The defenses success creating TOs and TDs actually limited his statistical output for a variety of reasons.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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Again, I don't like downgrading a guy because he wins/performs well with teammates, especially considering his OL.

Jaws is watching film with knowledge of what Cutler/Cam are looking at/for on every single snap. I trust his judgment. If he's got a guy with a 7 ypa ahead of a guy with better stats, it's a reason, and I think game situation/winning has a lot to do with it because he's not asked to put up stats in games his D is dominating. Same with his high ranking with Schaub.
Cam's offensive line was just as bad as Cutler's last season though. It's not like Cutler has really been a consistent winner either. I mean the guy has played 11 years as a starter in college and the pros and has lead his team to a postseason appearance exactly once.

I think Jaws is just too much of a traditionalist when evaluating his QB. He gives enormous props for Cutler rarely looking off a safety, but a guy like Cam whose immense physical gifts can allow him to stay in the pocket longer and break a 40 yard run hardly get mentioned, and that tends to manifest itself far more often in games than Cutler making a veteran move which he should be doing far more often anyways.

I mean it's telling to me that he would have a guy like Schaub above an RGIII, Wilson, Kaepernick, or Newton. Throughout his entire list the running QB's are pretty much at the bottom of where I would see them reasonably ranked, which to me shows me a lot of how he analyzes his QB's.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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I guess that's fair. He has admitted you need to play QB from the pocket consistently to win.

And Cutler's past isn't really part of it. He's ranking based on 2012 primarily.

I just love to trust Jaws because he actually analyzes football. For all the ******** they put on ESPN, they are actually putting some football content on with this list. It's really good.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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It's very strange to me that some people rate Jay Cutler ahead of Cam Newton for seemingly no reason whatsoever.
I noticed that as well and found it odd, thats why in my ratings (ranked on the previous page) I have Cam at #10, and Cutler at #19
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:54 PM    (permalink
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Your point is valid about his stats. But "hardly"? Come on. The QB is always a huge reason for success. The defenses success creating TOs and TDs actually limited his statistical output for a variety of reasons.
This is what kills me about giving guys credit just for the sake of being along for the ride in a lot of wins. Why should you in one breath criticize Cam for not winning enough games when Cam was on the losing end of 4 games where he was able to score in the 20's, generally amassed 300ish yards, and didn't turn the ball over, whereas Cutler won every game he managed to score over 17 points?

The Bears defense didn't allow more than 24 points in any game Cutler started last season, gave back 4.4 points a game with defensive scores, and gave the ball back 2 times a game to Cutler and the offense. Why should Cutler get the credit for winning games when he didn't do much to get those wins, while Newton gets the blame for losing when he oftentimes played well?
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:08 PM    (permalink
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This is what kills me about giving guys credit just for the sake of being along for the ride in a lot of wins. Why should you in one breath criticize Cam for not winning enough games when Cam was on the losing end of 4 games where he was able to score in the 20's, generally amassed 300ish yards, and didn't turn the ball over, whereas Cutler won every game he managed to score over 17 points?

The Bears defense didn't allow more than 24 points in any game Cutler started last season, gave back 4.4 points a game with defensive scores, and gave the ball back 2 times a game to Cutler and the offense. Why should Cutler get the credit for winning games when he didn't do much to get those wins, while Newton gets the blame for losing when he oftentimes played well?
Cutler should get credit for winning games because the primary objective for a QB is to win games. He wasn't "along with the ride." That's ridiculous. He's the most important player on the team because he's the QB. That's how it is now. Trent Dilfer isn't winning another Super Bowl in today's passing NFL. With the way the Bears D played, you can't fault him for not throwing it around the lot each week. Like I said, their D poached his touchdowns and put him in a position where he didn't have to throw it around a bunch. He shouldn't be criticized in those cases. Again, it's not just about stats. It's about performance and timely performance. And the bottom line is not the stat line - but the W column.

Newton gets the blame for losing because that's the nature of the position. And it should be. Just like Newton deserves the credit for turning the season around and finishing very strong. And you claim often times he played so well yet him playing "well" only translated into wins down the stretch. His stats aren't even that much better than Cutler's. His running TDs make them better but he's the team's GL back so it's not surprising.
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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I think you place way too much value in winning verses losing for QBs. Totally negating their surrounding cast and placing the value on wins just doesn't work.

You always say you don't like "IF" scenario's and like to look at what actually happened. In doing so you've made yourself completely blind.
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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I know I'm in the minority here, but I really like Bradford, and not just because he is my team's QB. For the record, when we drafted him I wasn't high on him at all. I wanted Suh really bad, even though I knew we had to take the QB. I think he has taken too long to grab the reigns and make this his team, and that lack of leadership has shown in the win/loss columns, but he is doing that now and I think we will see good results.

Is RGIII a better QB, and will he have the better career? Chances are good that he will. But I saw this trade as an opportunity to build a really strong talented core, a long-term contender. The Rams are putting together one of the most talented rosters in the NFL; I think they will be a top 5 team in terms of sheer talent within a year or two. The Redskins are a good 3-4 drafts away from having that level of talent. So in my mind, Bradford+picks>RGIII.
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:35 PM    (permalink
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I think you place way too much value in winning verses losing for QBs. Totally negating their surrounding cast and placing the value on wins just doesn't work.

You always say you don't like "IF" scenario's and like to look at what actually happened. In doing so you've made yourself completely blind.
I tend to agree with this. Within the same argument you attempt to make an assertion that the Bears have a diminished need for Cutler to play a major role in games because the defense played so well, yet in the same argument you say that Cutler deserves credit because he's the QB and played an important role. It's a contradictory argument.
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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I think you place way too much value in winning verses losing for QBs. Totally negating their surrounding cast and placing the value on wins just doesn't work.

You always say you don't like "IF" scenario's and like to look at what actually happened. In doing so you've made yourself completely blind.
Or honed in on just reality.

I don't negate supporting cast, I just view the QB as a key part of a whole machine and judge him IN his situation, not an unidentifiable vacuum. I also think the trait of making players around him better is essential and extremely important when judging QBs.
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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Or honed in on just reality.

I don't negate supporting cast, I just view the QB as a key part of a whole machine and judge him IN his situation, not an unidentifiable vacuum. I also think the trait of making players around him better is essential and extremely important when judging QBs.
Well then if that's the case then Cutler has been one of the worst in the NFL at elevating the play of players around him during his tenure with the Bears. Also, in that vacuum Cutler has failed. He's led his teams to the playoffs once in 7 years, and oftentimes those teams' losses are the result of his ineptness of putting points on the board on offense. They lost 5 games where they scored 6, 10, 13, 14, and 17 points last season with Cutler in.
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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The argument is about 2012, a year in which he led his team to 10 wins and absolutely made Marshall a better player.

As for your 5 losses, what do the numbers 7, 10, 12, 14, 14 and 17 (in a win at home against Oakland) mean to you?
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:23 PM    (permalink
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The argument is about 2012, a year in which he led his team to 10 wins and absolutely made Marshall a better player.

As for your 5 losses, what do the numbers 7, 10, 12, 14, 14 and 17 (in a win at home against Oakland) mean to you?
Your first part is definitely questionable. He threw to Brandon Marshall 194 times, and Marshall's production on a per target basis was pretty much in line with the rest of his career.

And by no means was I saying Newton was perfect, he contributed to a few losses for Carolina last year while he also won them a few games. However, he managed to gain 1500 more yards, turn the ball over less, and score more. He did his job better than Cutler did. The difference between him and Cutler is that he didn't get quite as much support from the other units. You can posture all you want, but 43 turnovers, 10 defensive TD's, and never allowing more than 24 points makes a very tangible difference for a QB trying to win a game. The fact that he couldn't lead his team to the playoffs under those circumstances is pretty damning to me.

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Old 07-15-2013, 11:04 PM    (permalink
gpngc
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They won 10 games. Not making the playoffs was bad luck with a 10 win season.

Again, his defense playing well shouldn't be held against him, especially when how many TDs they scored actually inhibited his statistical output. I'll agree to disagree. I think Cutler was better in 2012 than Newton.
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Old 07-16-2013, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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And Eli Manning comes in at 8th. Interesting. I'm guessing Joe Flacco is 7th and Matt Ryan is 6th.
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Old 07-16-2013, 01:15 AM    (permalink
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Who's left: Rodgers, Brees, P.Manning, Brady, Big Ben, Flacco and Matt Ryan.

Any predictions on how he'll rank em?
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Old 07-16-2013, 02:27 AM    (permalink
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And Eli Manning comes in at 8th. Interesting. I'm guessing Joe Flacco is 7th and Matt Ryan is 6th.
Given that Jaws seems to like Flacco a bit more than most, I would actually be surprised if he wasn´t ahead of Ryan on his list.
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Old 07-16-2013, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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Who's left: Rodgers, Brees, P.Manning, Brady, Big Ben, Flacco and Matt Ryan.

Any predictions on how he'll rank em?
Id go:

Flacco
Ryan
Roethlisberger
Manning
Brady
Brees
Rodgers

Its funny because the 1st 4 are interchangeable on almost every list. Those 4 are the top 4, just like manning and brady were 1-2 forever. Ryan wouldnt necessarily fall in my next group, but the eli/ben/flacco group are almost unanimously 5-7. Jaws bumped eli for Ryan, which isnt terrible
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