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Old 07-24-2013, 07:47 PM    (permalink
BallerT1215
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It was a horrible call that was completely wrong in every way.

There is no way around that.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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It was a horrible call that was completely wrong in every way.
This is false. If you're going to argue, argue. Break it down. I've broken it down and explained why it's justifiable to call it a catch, and why, since it was called a catch on the field, it didn't get overturned.

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There is no way around that.
I'm not trying to get around anything. The reason it shouldn't have been a touchdown is the PI, but they were getting pass interference calls wrong from the beginning of the game, for both teams.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.


Tate's right-hand, not on the ball, meaning it wasn't simultaneous.



Tate's right hand still not on the ball.


How can we spin it to be a simultaneous catch again?
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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And as an honest observer myself - yes, Tate should've been flagged. But it's not a bogus play because of the catch itself. It's hard to take the replacement refs word on such a sketchy call, but there were much worse calls in that game, and it bugs me that the narrative is that the Seahawks were gifted a game, not that the game was so poorly-officiated throughout that it hardly seems like it should be included in the official records. The end of that game (at least, without the PI that should've been called) is probably about the hardest call that can be made in a football game, replacement refs or not.
This call was actually under review though. It wasn't just a judgement call they couldn't reverse. And seeing as how real officials like Gerry Austin disagreed with the call, well, I don't think you can say that the official did everything correct and that the call on the catch is essentially, correct. If that was the case everyone on the planet except Seattle would think it was a catch.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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Tate's right-hand, not on the ball, meaning it wasn't simultaneous.



Tate's right hand still not on the ball.


How can we spin it to be a simultaneous catch again?
Neither of those pictures show Tate's left hand, which was on the ball and stayed on the ball throughout the process (because Jennings held it there.)
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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Tate didn't really catch the ball. Or rather, I don't see how simultaneous catch could be applied here. Jennings clearly intercepted the pass before Tate could even get a full grasp on the ball.



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Old 07-24-2013, 08:28 PM    (permalink
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Tate never had possession. He had a hand on it at some point but it is clear that Jennings had the ball throughout and Tate tried to wrestle it away after they landed. It was a bad call.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:30 PM    (permalink
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Tate's right-hand, not on the ball, meaning it wasn't simultaneous.

How can we spin it to be a simultaneous catch again?
Doesn't matter if both hands aren't on the ball. Have you heard of a one-handed catch?



Jennings gets to it first. But he hasn't touched his feet down yet. Therefore it is not yet a catch. You've got to acknowledge that. It's the way the rules work and that's what I'm arguing. Everyone thought Calvin Johnson should've had a touchdown last year but he didn't maintain possession all the way through, so it didn't count. He caught it with his hands, in the sense that the ball's trajectory was stopped by his digits, but didn't complete the play. Similar with Jennings - yeah, he caught it, but Golden Tate got to it, too, before it was a complete interception, hence the final ruling.



Tate has his left hand under the ball. Jennings is holding the ball on the sides, and Golden Tate has got the rear point. His right hand is touching it, but a degree of control (though shared) is established with his left.



Now Tate's feet are on the ground. Jennings is still in the air. Tate is clearly pulling down on the ball with both hands, but the fact that his left hand always stayed on it until they were both clearly down is what made it called a touchdown.



Golden Tate, with both feet on the ground, as Jennings also hits the ground. Tate is, at this point, fighting with Jennings for the ball. It was a fight for the ball which began in the air, and it doesn't matter that Jennings ripped it away after they were both down. Jennings was not touching the ground, although he had caught it in the air, and it was thus not yet an interception. Since he and Tate were both trying to pull it away from each other as they both hit the ground, they both necessarily had some measure of possession when their feet hit, which is the moment in a football game which establishes whether or not a passing play has resulted in a catch. That is what constitutes a simultaneous catch, and according to the rules a simultaneous catch goes to the offense.

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Old 07-24-2013, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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Tate never had possession. He had a hand on it at some point but it is clear that Jennings had the ball throughout and Tate tried to wrestle it away after they landed. It was a bad call.
It started with the initial ruling. It's clear that the official wasn't even sure if it was a touchdown. He looked at the other official who signaled touchback as in "Well, what should I do?" LOL. Since he didn't know he figured he should just call it touchdown since Tate was on the ground with the ball hahaha.

All you have to do is wrestle the ball with one hand where cameras can't see it and come out with it in the middle of a pile and that constitutes as a simultaneous catch apparently regardless if it's inconclusive and regardless if a defender clearly has more leverage and is clearly the one making a sure catch.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:37 PM    (permalink
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It started with the initial ruling. It's clear that the official wasn't even sure if it was a touchdown. He looked at the other official who signaled touchback as in "Well, what should I do?" LOL. Since he didn't know he figured he should just call it touchdown since Tate was on the ground with the ball hahaha.
Frankly, as much as I'm arguing that it was technically a "simultaneous catch," I'm just trying to make the point that the problem isn't a replacement-ref misinterpretation of the rules; it may just show it's a dumb rule, or that the idea of a "simultaneous catch" just doesn't work. Because it looks like it's about 2/3 Jennings catch, 1/3 Tate catch. Don't know how anyone is ever supposed to rectify that sort of thing.

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if a defender clearly has more leverage and is clearly the one making a sure catch.
There's just nothing in the rules that really speaks to this. I'm not sure anything could.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Frankly, as much as I'm arguing that it was technically a "simultaneous catch," I'm just trying to make the point that the problem isn't a replacement-ref misinterpretation of the rules; it may just show it's a dumb rule, or that the idea of a "simultaneous catch" just doesn't work. Because it looks like it's about 2/3 Jennings catch, 1/3 Tate catch. Don't know how anyone is ever supposed to rectify that sort of thing.
I could see that perspective. At the same time, I just think it was a bad call regardless of the official ruling. Apparently, according to the officials, there wasn't enough evidence to overturn the ruling I believe. I tend to disagree with that notion.

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There's just nothing in the rules that really speaks to this. I'm not sure anything could.
Since when do the rules need to account for common sense?
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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Jenning had a firm grip on the ball the entire time while Tate was struggling to get a grip. Jennings had full possession throughout the entirety of the catch while Tate get possession only after they both had landed. Jennings had it and then Tate got a significant share only after they had landed.

It was a bad call between indecisive refs on the field and the replay couldn't change it even if there was conclusive evidence. The play was a major black eye for the replacement refs and the NFL.
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Old 07-24-2013, 09:04 PM    (permalink
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Since when do the rules need to account for common sense?
I think the problem here is that the rules and common sense are at odds.

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Jennings had full possession throughout the entirety of the catch while Tate get possession only after they both had landed. Jennings had it and then Tate got a significant share only after they had landed.
I don't think this is quite true, and that's what makes it complicated. It's hard to see, but Tate's left hand is squarely behind the ball while they're both in the air, and that never changes throughout the replay. He's trying to get to it with his right hand, too, and Jennings does have both hands on it, but Tate had a chunk of it before they had landed. As you can see in the last screengrab I posted, Tate's got both of his feet on the ground, and actually has both arms around the ball with Jennings over his side. It's just a brief moment, but they were definitely fighting over it, and while Jennings definitely looks like he has a more secure grip, that's simply not what the rule cares about.

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It was a bad call between indecisive refs on the field and the replay couldn't change it even if there was conclusive evidence. The game was a major black eye for the replacement refs and the NFL.
fixed it for you. ;-) A game of genuinely terrible calls on MNF, and then at the end of the game they split hairs over a questionable call while completely ignoring the blatant pushoff. Just a mess all around.
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Old 07-24-2013, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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so first he gets paid whatever ridiculous sum he got to fix that game (and it was more than one call the guy made that makes me believe he was taking $$), and now hes writing a book about how the experience of what its like to fix the game and lie about it and pretend he really thought that was a TD is like...so he can make more money? probably gambled away everything he got paid for the fix already and is now trying to come up with a new pathetic way to make some money...dudes a lowlife go sell that religion stuff somewhere else.
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Old 07-24-2013, 09:26 PM    (permalink
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I don't think this is quite true, and that's what makes it complicated. It's hard to see, but Tate's left hand is squarely behind the ball while they're both in the air, and that never changes throughout the replay. He's trying to get to it with his right hand, too, and Jennings does have both hands on it, but Tate had a chunk of it before they had landed. As you can see in the last screengrab I posted, Tate's got both of his feet on the ground, and actually has both arms around the ball with Jennings over his side. It's just a brief moment, but they were definitely fighting over it, and while Jennings definitely looks like he has a more secure grip, that's simply not what the rule cares about.
just sticking a hand in the guys chest while he has full possesion of the ball does not mean you ever had possession. Once they land, its over. And when they landed, Jennings had clear and full possesion, with Tate just having his arm stuck in the guys chest. Then they landed and he tried to grab it. It was one of the most abominable calls there has ever been and I believe without much doubt the ref was paid to fix that game for seattle - i can go back to the incredibly late flag on the phantom roughing the passer that he threw after he watched and saw that wilson had thrown an INT.

but yes you were right the game as a whole was just horribly officiated. But to me its pretty clear that someone was paying the guy off. It was just the perfect storm of circumstances for that game to be fixed in Seattles favor. there was an obscenely high amount of money that was placed on green bay that game in casinos and sportsbooks all over....what a perfect time to get a replacement ref with the perfect cover (incompetence), and nothing to lose (hes gonna lose his job soon regardless) to call the game in favor of one team. And it just so hapenned that the game ended like it did and it was either call it a TD or let Seattle not cover by a half point and get killed by the mob, so he made the bad call.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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In this GIF, you can see the ball land in Tate's left hand at almost the exact same time that Jennings grabs it. That hand NEVER moves from the ball throughout the entire process. Jennings brings the ball to his body, with Tate's hand still on the ball. According to the rules, that is possession. it does not matter what Tate's right hand does, as long as the ball does not move in his left hand throughout the process, it is by NFL rules, possession.

I think it's a terrible rule, anyone with eyes and common sense can see that Jennings had 90% of the claim to the ball, however the rule says "simultaneous possession," not "simultaneous 50/50 claim to the ball."

Also the ref had to watch this whole thing in real time, without the advantage of slow motion replays and 50 camera angles. I remember being in the gameday thread, nobody posting in there knew if it was a catch or an interception when they saw it in real time. In real time, you absolutely could not tell. It wasn't until they showed the replays that everyone went ape ****. The replay official determined there was insufficient evidence to overturn the call, which the NFL agreed with. If it had been called an INT on the field, that call would have stood after replay as well. But yeah, someone paid the referee to fix the game...right....If the game were fixed, it never would have come down to a last second hail mary to decide the game, and the referee that was supposedly paid off just happened to be the one making the deciding call...
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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Fair enough.
Let's move on shall we.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:26 PM    (permalink
JeffSamardzijaIRISH
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From that GIF you posted, it looks pretty clear that Tate does NOT have possession of the ball. Just because he has his hand behind it doesn't mean he has possession of it.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:03 PM    (permalink
Eazy Picks
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Originally Posted by XxXdragonXxX View Post



In this GIF, you can see the ball land in Tate's left hand at almost the exact same time that Jennings grabs it. That hand NEVER moves from the ball throughout the entire process. Jennings brings the ball to his body, with Tate's hand still on the ball. According to the rules, that is possession. it does not matter what Tate's right hand does, as long as the ball does not move in his left hand throughout the process, it is by NFL rules, possession.

I think it's a terrible rule, anyone with eyes and common sense can see that Jennings had 90% of the claim to the ball, however the rule says "simultaneous possession," not "simultaneous 50/50 claim to the ball."

Also the ref had to watch this whole thing in real time, without the advantage of slow motion replays and 50 camera angles. I remember being in the gameday thread, nobody posting in there knew if it was a catch or an interception when they saw it in real time. In real time, you absolutely could not tell. It wasn't until they showed the replays that everyone went ape ****. The replay official determined there was insufficient evidence to overturn the call, which the NFL agreed with. If it had been called an INT on the field, that call would have stood after replay as well. But yeah, someone paid the referee to fix the game...right....If the game were fixed, it never would have come down to a last second hail mary to decide the game, and the referee that was supposedly paid off just happened to be the one making the deciding call...

first off, I thought it was pretty clear in real time. But its not like he didnt have the benefit of replay. He did. And he chose not to overturn it under the ridiculous excuse of needing indisputable evidence, which he clearly had.

and second off, as i already stated, pinning one hand into a guys chest as he basket catches the ball does not mean simultaneous possession. if a guy has full control of the ball, and another guy sticks his hand into his arm, its a catch for the guy with control - as long as he maintains his possession all the way to the ground. And Jennings did that. It wasnt until after they hit the ground and the play was over that tate wrestled his way into having simultaneous possession.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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From that GIF you posted, it looks pretty clear that Tate does NOT have possession of the ball. Just because he has his hand behind it doesn't mean he has possession of it.
Exactly. You can clearly see the ball rotate. The laces first appear at 5:00 then to like 2:00 and then out of view at 6:00.

If Tate had control with one hand, then his wrist rotates freely.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:09 PM    (permalink
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this all reminds me of the tuck rule - an inexplicably horrible call that decided a game...And I never expected the Pats to apologize for it, you should never apologize for a bad call that goes in your favor. But dont be a dirtbag and argue that it was the right call. And to Brady and the Pats credit - they didnt do that. There were plenty of idiot fans who tried to rationalize it and say how it was the right call - and thats what would get me mad. And the same goes here. For Pete Carroll to come out and continously argue that it was the correct call, and for the ref to still stand by his call, and Im not sure if Golden Tate has maintained he caught it or has taken the high road - but to me its just despicable - stop lying to the world. Theres nothing wrong with being on the fortunate end of a horrible call by a ref. So just say hey we caught a break thats call he made and leave it at that. Or the ref can just say im human and i make mistakes and leave it. but all this stuff with people continuing to argue that it was a good call just pisses me off.
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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...as much as the 'Righteous Anger' brigade is on the warpath right now, I honestly have to say, 'What's the point?'

I missed the final play because the bar I was at closed down due to lack of customers, so maybe I missed the initial wave of fury over what transpired. Problem is it ultimately ceased to be relevant by the next game when the real referees came back (anybody claiming it decided the playoffs is a moron. Our playoff standing was dictated by failing to contain AP in Week 17, and Kaepernick would've still eaten us alive at Lambeau).

As far as the ref's book goes- there have been worse 'subjects' to write about. Not really caring either way; those who do care seem to feel that people who make such dastardly wrong decisions in public view can only 'redeem' themselves by hiding in the proverbial wilderness to never be seen again.
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Old 07-25-2013, 01:25 AM    (permalink
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They play was just the perfect culmination of a terrible week of officiating. Granted it is hard as hell to be a ref in the NFL, but those guys were awful. That whole game was brutal. That week/game/play made everyone say "okay lets get the real refs back asap." Although I thought the real refs getting a standing ovation was ridiculous.
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