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Old 10-01-2013, 12:24 AM    (permalink
cgf (Rosebud)
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Originally Posted by brat316 View Post
He was talking about Ricky out of college, not Dolphins or post india ricky.
He talks about Ricky carrying Miami's offense and comparing it to the Richardson trade so I'm assuming he's talking about the trade that took Ricky from NO to Miami rather than the draft trade by NO. Either way comparing Ricky and Richardson is dumb because Ricky was visibly on a completely different level. Which is why I brought up after the return ricky because even after all of those years and the time away from the game, Ricky was better and more impressive than Richardson has ever been.

And unless they just dose t-rich before a game and everything goes perfectly, letting Richardson rewire his brain and suddenly develop amazing patience and vision, he never will have the instincts and slipperiness to go with that power that made Ricky such a force.

Richardson can still be good, even very good like a Corey Dillon or Curtis Martin, but he won't be an elite force the way Ricky Williams was, or the way LdT was.
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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just throwing it out there, according to pro football focus, T Rich leads the league in elusive rating, a stat made to measure how hard a running back is to tackle. On 38 carries, he has forced 14 missed tackles. Richardson has a rating over 100, while Tate and Peterson are 2nd and 3rd, and in the lows 90s. Reggie Bush comes in 4th, david wilson surprsingly at 5.

And getting carried away with him not putting up big numbers after 2 games in Indy is ridiculous. give him some time to get acclimated w/ the offense.
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:43 AM    (permalink
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so the obvious rejoinder is, why is he averaging even less with a better team? are the colts still awful? if so, why are the rest of their backs capable of producing?
It's not about the average. You of all people should be able to look past the stat. Why can't we wait til the end of the season? Why does everyone insist on passing some kind of absolute judgement on him as a player so quickly? He's played two games with a new team. Why wouldn't he improve?
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:43 AM    (permalink
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so the obvious rejoinder is, why is he averaging even less with a better team? are the colts still awful? if so, why are the rest of their backs capable of producing?
I mean our OL is pretty awful. They have gotten a little better gelling together, but we are not much better than Cleveland's. I agree though, the threat of the pass should provide him with more room.

I have seen very little of him but he looks slow and boring. Ahmad Bradshaw looked to be a lot better. I understand that we needed a RB to replace Ballard, but we didn't need to give up a 1st. I hope that he gets better, but I am not impressed.

I would much much rather have Gio Bernard in a Colts uniform than Richardson. He fell past the first round and I would rather try to find someone like that in the draft.
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:44 AM    (permalink
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Yea, I dunno. I'm not a huge proponent of spending a lot of high assets on backs, but Richardson doesn't come off as just another guy when I watch him run. I'd give it some time.
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:52 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Eazy Picks View Post
just throwing it out there, according to pro football focus, T Rich leads the league in elusive rating, a stat made to measure how hard a running back is to tackle. On 38 carries, he has forced 14 missed tackles. Richardson has a rating over 100, while Tate and Peterson are 2nd and 3rd, and in the lows 90s. Reggie Bush comes in 4th, david wilson surprsingly at 5.

And getting carried away with him not putting up big numbers after 2 games in Indy is ridiculous. give him some time to get acclimated w/ the offense.
I wouldn't say anything because Wilson will then promptly start fumbling again, but the kid's been the best thing our offense had going the last two games. Our interior OL sucks, but running off of our tackles with someone pulling out seems to be working and letting Wilson get some gains.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:07 AM    (permalink
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I like Trent Richardson. I like him a lot. But he has looked like just a guy so far. His longest run in the NFL has been 32 yards. As a top 3 pick that's unacceptable.

Trent to me needs to lose some LB's. He's listed at 225 most likely more like 230. Should be playing about 215-218.

But I will say this. With how strong he is and what he takes out of a D doesn't show up on the stat line. Trying to tackle him hurts and after doing it for 55 mins sure helps this team when the game is on the line.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:18 AM    (permalink
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Nothing is set in stone guys. Let's let him play more than 2 games in a Colts uniform before we start analyzing his ypc.

Not sure how Pep Hamilton is now running his offense, but at Stanford he was willing to do some 'body shot' runs earlier in the game to wear the defense down for later similar to what bigbuc is saying. Pound it for 3 quarters and break them down for the 4th.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:26 AM    (permalink
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but Richardson doesn't come off as just another guy when I watch him run. I'd give it some time.
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With how strong he is and what he takes out of a D doesn't show up on the stat line. Trying to tackle him hurts and after doing it for 55 mins sure helps this team when the game is on the line.
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Nothing is set in stone guys. Let's let him play more than 2 games in a Colts uniform before we start analyzing his ypc.

Not sure how Pep Hamilton is now running his offense, but at Stanford he was willing to do some 'body shot' runs earlier in the game to wear the defense down for later similar to what bigbuc is saying. Pound it for 3 quarters and break them down for the 4th.
This. Big backs often have lower averages, but along with being more consistent gainers, they wear out the defense more. The defense literally has to put more effort into tackling them, and that both softens them up for later runs, and drain the same energy reserves that they're using to defend passing downs. You really have to just watch the game and see what's happening. Getting tired, getting sore and consistency and getting critical yards are things that simply don't show up in the stat sheet. Stats are fun to look at, but you simply can't put one player's stats against others and determine their relative worth accordingly.

I was honestly not a huge Trent Richardson fan when he was a prospect, thinking top-5 was too high for him because of the kind of back you could get in the second round (where I thought Doug Martin would be, to be precise), but at the same time I did think either he or Doug Martin would the best running back in that class, and I've got no reason to think otherwise yet. I mean, if he stays a sub 4 runner, I'm not going to argue that he's some great runner, but he's a young guy coming from a team that's struggled to find a running game for years, so I think it's more than reasonable to keep in mind what made him a top prospect and reserve judgement, and also to appreciate that what he brings to an offense won't always be obvious statistically.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:35 AM    (permalink
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The sad thing is that it is starting to look like a good trade for CLE
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:16 AM    (permalink
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Unfortunately for TRich, he has to run into that Seattle defense this week. It could look even worse than 20 for 60.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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Unfortunately for TRich, he has to run into that Seattle defense this week. It could look even worse than 20 for 60.
They're only ranked 15th vs. the run. Of course with the way Hamilton calls plays that ranking will improve because for whatever reason we will only run TRich with a FB, two TEs, and an extra tackle. Run plays with a spread out formation and the threat of play action? What's that?
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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I wouldn't say anything because Wilson will then promptly start fumbling again, but the kid's been the best thing our offense had going the last two games. Our interior OL sucks, but running off of our tackles with someone pulling out seems to be working and letting Wilson get some gains.
yeah fumbling issues aside, I think David Wilson is a pretty good back, he can definitely make some big plays...Coughlin doesnt like playing him b/c he doesnt trust him, but I dont think he has much choice at this point. The Giants need some kind of spark on offense. Darell Scott and Brandon Jacobs dont bring enough to the table, and the pass protection is not nearly good enough to have Eli throwing the ball 50 times a game. Coughlin doesnt want to play Wilson b/c he fumbles too much, but Eli is turning the ball over left and right because hes being asked to carry a disfunctional offense.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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I like Trent Richardson. I like him a lot. But he has looked like just a guy so far. His longest run in the NFL has been 32 yards. As a top 3 pick that's unacceptable.
Maybe statistically. He and Mark Ingram are similar in terms of YPC, but Richardson looks very powerful, with quick feet, and burst(for his size), etc. INgram... doesn't.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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Maybe statistically. He and Mark Ingram are similar in terms of YPC, but Richardson looks very powerful, with quick feet, and burst(for his size), etc. INgram... doesn't.
I'll give you a player that TRich should be compared with but I haven't seen one person do it. He's a guest on NFL Network today.

Jamal Lewis.

Both big time backs in the SEC. Both have big time speed for bigger backs. Both are top 5 picks. And both are just big dudes.

It's not Trich's YPC that bug me. It's that he only has three 100 yard rushing games out of 19. Three!. And they weren't big time games. They were for 105,109 and 122 respectively but that's not taking over a ball game. With someone that's 225 Lb's, Runs between 4.45 and 4.55, can bench 500 pounds and god only knows what he squats. Why doesn't he have more " WOW " plays? Him trucking someone, giving someone a nasty stiff arm. Or just flat out running by some people. It's a little alarming. Again it's still early and he doesn't know the Colts whole playbook.

I really like TRich and want to see him blow up. But with every game that goes by he's looking more like Cedric Benson and less like Jamal Lewis.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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Trent Richardson was on a very bad team. That's why he averaged 3.5 yards per carry.
Complete fallacy.

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just throwing it out there, according to pro football focus, T Rich leads the league in elusive rating, a stat made to measure how hard a running back is to tackle. On 38 carries, he has forced 14 missed tackles. Richardson has a rating over 100, while Tate and Peterson are 2nd and 3rd, and in the lows 90s. Reggie Bush comes in 4th, david wilson surprsingly at 5.
PFF also had TR with a higher elusive rating then Shady McCoy a couple weeks back. Yeah.

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It's not about the average. You of all people should be able to look past the stat. Why can't we wait til the end of the season? Why does everyone insist on passing some kind of absolute judgement on him as a player so quickly? He's played two games with a new team. Why wouldn't he improve?
It's not all about the ypc. He had one of the worst ratios of attempts to 20+yd runs last season. (267 - 2)The only other guys close were Shonn Greene (276 - 2) and Mikel Leshoure.(215 - 0) Each on bad teams and still a higher ypc then him. So far this season he has 0 20+ yd runs.

I still love him. I'm not trying to bash but through 20 games he's had just one where he actually looked like an explosive RB.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:50 PM    (permalink
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PFF's stat is misleading for the following reason:

If you lack vision, and run into 2 defenders and break 1 tackle before going down, are you really elusive? Or do you just have ****** vision bc you didn't see the cutback?

They mention that he breaks a lot of tackles, but he often creates those tackles that he breaks because he's running into defenders often when he doesn't have to.
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Old 10-01-2013, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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I'll give you a player that TRich should be compared with but I haven't seen one person do it. He's a guest on NFL Network today.

Jamal Lewis.

Both big time backs in the SEC. Both have big time speed for bigger backs. Both are top 5 picks. And both are just big dudes.

It's not Trich's YPC that bug me. It's that he only has three 100 yard rushing games out of 19. Three!. And they weren't big time games. They were for 105,109 and 122 respectively but that's not taking over a ball game. With someone that's 225 Lb's, Runs between 4.45 and 4.55, can bench 500 pounds and god only knows what he squats. Why doesn't he have more " WOW " plays? Him trucking someone, giving someone a nasty stiff arm. Or just flat out running by some people. It's a little alarming. Again it's still early and he doesn't know the Colts whole playbook.

I really like TRich and want to see him blow up. But with every game that goes by he's looking more like Cedric Benson and less like Jamal Lewis.

I want to disagree with this, but I really can't. He's got 12 games to go though before I going to form too strong of an opinion one way or another.
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:03 AM    (permalink
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I think Richardson should be a solid starting NFL RB and probably solves the Colts running back issues for at least half a decade.

But he simply isn't this rare or elite prospect. Starting caliber player, but nowhere near one of the best at his position.

Richardson was picked way too high in the 2012 draft and there's no way to spin he was worth being taken that high.
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:22 AM    (permalink
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It's fair to say he was overdrafted because #3 is damn high. Where should have he been drafted? I wouldn't freak all if he was still in the top 10/15.
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Old 10-02-2013, 06:09 AM    (permalink
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In todays NFL unless we are talking an AP like freak, no higher than 15-20.
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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It's fair to say we'll find out, once we see how Indy's season goes.
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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I probably wouldn't take a runningback in the first round or early second anymore. It's just not a good value. In fact, if you desperately need a runningback, you might even be better off trading down and taking more than one guy with the extra picks. You double your chances of hitting it big and potentially walk away with much better depth, which is particularly valuable at that position. The sample size is large enough at this point to confirm that the talent will be there in that area onward too.
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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I probably wouldn't take a runningback in the first round or early second anymore. It's just not a good value. In fact, if you desperately need a runningback, you might even be better off trading down and taking more than one guy with the extra picks. You double your chances of hitting it big and potentially walk away with much better depth, which is particularly valuable at that position. The sample size is large enough at this point to confirm that the talent will be there in that area onward too.
What are your thoughts on giving up a 2nd rounder to trade up for a situational back?
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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I still think running backs should go in the first round. Top 5... not so much.

But it's also the type of running back your drafting. AP is in his own league. We all shouldn't even bring him up in " Drafting Running Backs Talk " because he's a all time great.

But back to the type of back. I think guys like Martin, McCoy, Charles, Bush, Forte and Lynch. Are the backs that should have first round grades. The ones that are 3 down backs. That can have 25 to 45 Rec's a season. But most importantly can take a reg play that might get 7 yards and turn it into a 70 yard play.
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