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Old 09-20-2013, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Default Drafting LT's in Top 10 and Converting to RT's

Go home NFL teams, you're drunk.
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Old 09-20-2013, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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One argument for doing this is that the team may move the players back to LT later. Also, keep in mind rookie contracts aren't as expensive as they used to be.
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Old 09-20-2013, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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I've posed this question 1 million times and never got a good answer.

What should the Chiefs have done? Ignored that Fisher was the No. 1 player on their board and taken who exactly?
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Old 09-20-2013, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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Don't see the problem here.

If they aren't good enough to unseat an incumbent, let them gain experience on the sheltered right side. Maybe they never get good enough to move to the left side.

It's not like dumping a top 10 pick on craptastic DEs like Ansah and Jordan. Those guys don't offer any other ancillary value at all.
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Old 09-20-2013, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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Not to mention Albert's not under contract for next year.

I guess Jacksonville's selection is easier questioned due to different circumstances (Monroe the probable long term LT and one of only a few good players on the team, dearth of pass rushers).

But the bottom line is that these teams felt the top two players in the draft were tackles. They stayed true to their board.

And based on the draft class, it's tough to argue. I had Tavon Austin as the best player in the draft, but I could understand why teams would think otherwise. All the pass rushers were flawed in some way. The QBs too.

When we look back on the draft, there are going to be a few players taken behind those two tackles that revisionist historians will point to and say "SEE - they could've taken him or him or him - anyone but the tackle!" But AT THE TIME, they seemed like the best players there and it's tough to argue that.

Not to mention when we're going back and saying "they should've taken Hopkins there!" we'd have no idea how that player would have done on KC or JAX.
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Old 09-20-2013, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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It was a weak class, if they're really an elite talent I think they can play both sides and even Guard.

It's too early to tell, but with Fisher I mostly notice footwork problems.

Of course, if you've been playing one way for years and move to the exact opposite, it's going to mess with you a little.

I think they'll be fine, it will just take time
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Old 09-21-2013, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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Fisher and Johnson got dusted all night on Thursday, it was borderline tough to watch.
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Old 09-21-2013, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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Don't listen to nepg, he's a ridiculously awful troll.
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Old 09-21-2013, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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Tyron Smith?
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Old 09-21-2013, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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With the rookie salary scale in place I don't think taking right tackles and offensive guards in the top half of round one is really an issue anymore. Just look at the contracts Anthony Davis, Gosder Cherilus and Andy Levitre got last offseason. When you view it through that lens guys like Jonathan Cooper, Chance Warmack and D.J. Fluker are relative bargains.
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Old 09-21-2013, 11:41 PM    (permalink
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My feelings on Kansas City drafting Fisher were mixed at best. For one thing, I'm not necessarily sure that you need to draft an offensive tackle as one of the cornerstones of your team, and to me it seems logical to determine that, based on recent history, you can be a championship team even if you don't have one of the best tackles in the league. Looking over the past ten Super Bowl winners, you've got Bryant McKinnie, David Diehl, Marshall Newhouse, Jermon Bushrod, Max Starks, David Diehl, Tarik Glenn, Marvel Smith, Matt Light, and Matt Light at left tackle. Now, I'm not saying you can win with just anyone at the position, but to me it doesn't seem like there's a very strong correlation between offensive tackle quality and wins relative to the correlation between say, having a quarterback or defensive playmakers.

Another question I had with the pick was that, despite being the worst team in the league last year, Kansas City seemed to create a need to fill instead of addressing another position on the roster which was actually weak last year. The combination of Branden Albert and Eric Winston looked like a perfectly capable duo to me, so it was a surprise that the Chiefs cut Winston after a season in which he ranked out as one of the better right tackles in the league to draft someone who was basically more expensive in the hopes that they'd basically replace Winston's production. Now, if Kansas City drafted Fisher with the intention of letting Albert leave in free agency, my question is this: why get rid of Albert? He's a home-grown player and one of the better left tackles in the league, so to me that seems like someone you may want to just re-sign and leave there.

Meanwhile, the Chiefs were pretty weak along the defensive line, with Tyson Jackson's bloated contract and uncertain future paired with their decision to release Glenn Dorsey and basically create a gap at right end. I was among those who had Star Lotulelei going first until it became clear that he wasn't really a strong consideration, and I think I'd rather go with an Albert/Winston combo at tackle and draft Star to provide a potential Haloti Ngata-type talent at the five-technique over an Albert/Fisher combination which forces me to play a lesser player at right end. I obviously can't say what Lotulelei's medical reports revealed, but to me that seemed like an alternative worth investigating. I'd say that's been validated so far based on the fact that Lotulelei has been performing at an elite level while Fisher is ranked among the worst offensive tackles in the league right now.

Obviously it's a complicated process and the Chiefs didn't really have many great alternatives to taking a tackle, especially if they were scared by Lotulelei's medical report, and I do think Fisher will improve dramatically and be at least a solid starter, but to me it seemed like the whole process of releasing Winston in order to draft Fisher was a convoluted lateral move where you're creating a problem on your roster in order to invest resources in solving it, while, having just concluded 2012 as the worst team in the league, you've already got other problems which require attention. To me, Winston and Lotulelei made more sense than Fisher and DeVito. The Chiefs have had success so far, so it's difficult to question the direction of their team, but you look at what Fisher's doing so far and what Lotulelei's doing so far and you wonder if they missed an opportunity there.
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Old 09-21-2013, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wright View Post
With the rookie salary scale in place I don't think taking right tackles and offensive guards in the top half of round one is really an issue anymore. Just look at the contracts Anthony Davis, Gosder Cherilus and Andy Levitre got last offseason. When you view it through that lens guys like Jonathan Cooper, Chance Warmack and D.J. Fluker are relative bargains.
You also have to keep in mind that the cost of a pick is not just the financial commitment you make but also the players you lose the opportunity to add to your team, though. Maybe the financial cost of drafting Fluker at eleven's not too bad, but you also miss out on getting a guy like Star Lotulelei.
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:21 AM    (permalink
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I hate the arbitrary "top ten pick" usage. Anthony Davis was selected 11th. Is he outside of the sample size then? Is it OK to take a RT at pick 11?

My feelings are that all of the o-line spots are extremely important. If a team feels they're getting a great RT, it really shouldn't matter what pick number they use.
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:31 AM    (permalink
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I hate the arbitrary "top ten pick" usage. Anthony Davis was selected 11th. Is he outside of the sample size then? Is it OK to take a RT at pick 11?

My feelings are that all of the o-line spots are extremely important. If a team feels they're getting a great RT, it really shouldn't matter what pick number they use.
Yeah, my theory has always been that if you have enough talented players on the OL, it doesn't matter where they play. If you have at least 3 good OL, you should be alright. It could be a C, RT, and LG, doesn't matter, as long as you have three good lineman, you can cover up the weakspots. The C and RT can help mask a replacement level guard, and you can afford to give help to the LT if needed as you're covered everywhere else. If you're lucky enough to have 4 good OL, you going to have a top notch OL. A good offensive line is made by having multiple quality lineman, not one stud LT.
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Old 09-22-2013, 01:02 AM    (permalink
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Vick is left handed so Lane Johnson is really his LT!
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Old 09-22-2013, 02:08 AM    (permalink
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With some of the best pass rushers lining up on the left side both tackle spots are equally important.
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Old 09-22-2013, 04:28 AM    (permalink
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Tyron Smith?

Beat me to it. This is only a problem if the player sucks in general. Unless somebody honestly believes that if Fisher was at LT somehow he wouldn't be getting beat? Going from LT to RT has nothing to do with it at all. Tyron played great on the right side at 20 years old because he's a good tackle, and honestly I have no problem with teams drafting franchise LT's and putting them at RT for a year before having to face the most elite pass rushers in the NFL.


These guys are just struggling right now period.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 09-22-2013, 07:43 AM    (permalink
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This is some of the most embarrassing pass protection this side of Robert Gallery:

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Old 09-22-2013, 08:28 AM    (permalink
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With some of the best pass rushers lining up on the left side both tackle spots are equally important.
Yeah, I've read a few interviews where HCs say that they want two starting OT's with LT skillsets. It's not like we're talking about the RTs of yesteryear.
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Old 09-22-2013, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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We shouldn't kid ourselves here, Eric Winston is a pretty ****** OT. Good run blocking, and one of the worst pass blocking OTs I've ever seen. You're out of your mind if you don't think Fisher has a ton more upside and can be a much better player there. Fisher has played 3 regular season games, Winston has been in the NFL for years, and I'd STILL take Fisher.

I don't agree with the way they went about this, and I was pissed when they released Winston, but we should call him what he is, a mediocre OT with no upside whatsoever.
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Old 09-22-2013, 09:54 AM    (permalink
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We shouldn't kid ourselves here, Eric Winston is a pretty ****** OT. Good run blocking, and one of the worst pass blocking OTs I've ever seen. You're out of your mind if you don't think Fisher has a ton more upside and can be a much better player there. Fisher has played 3 regular season games, Winston has been in the NFL for years, and I'd STILL take Fisher.

I don't agree with the way they went about this, and I was pissed when they released Winston, but we should call him what he is, a mediocre OT with no upside whatsoever.
Believe it or not, Winston was credited with allowing only four sacks, six hits, and 25 pressures last season, which PFF credited with a +8.0 pass protection score that ranked 24th/80 qualifying tackles. As we saw based on what he was able to get on the open market, he's not considered a star by any means, but I think a team could contend with Winston at right tackle. I just see the Chiefs as having been able to improve more by going from a below-average defensive lineman to a stud rather than by going from an above-average right tackle to a potentially good right tackle.
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Old 09-22-2013, 09:57 AM    (permalink
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I don't believe it. He looked far shittier than that. Always looked lost and I just can't believe he only gave up 4 sacks and that many pressures.

And while all three of these guys have struggled (Fisher, Joeckel, Lane Johnson) we have to remember it's only their third game. After a few games last year Poe was labeled a bust by many, and he's dominating now. Not everyone comes into the NFL and is a stud from day 1.
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Old 09-22-2013, 10:53 AM    (permalink
BuddyCHRIST
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The LT position is so overrated, its wayyy more important to have a solid group up front than a great LT. Teams can scheme around that one on one matchup. The whole blindside idea is kind of silly, QB's have to sense pressure anyways, and its easier to throw moving away from blindside pressure than pressure on your face.

That said, with the new salary cap rules, I don't have a problem with any position besides K/P going in the top 10. You draft the guys you have rated the best. You can make arguments about relative value for every position that's not a QB and none of them are wrong, and not every team is going to take a QB in the top 10.
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Old 09-22-2013, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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I don't think it was a bad choice for Kansas City. If they didn't go Fisher, who wold they take? A pass rusher? They don't exactly need one of those. But with the Jaguars, it was just the first bad pick in a draft full of bad picks.

The Jaguars are completely devoid of pass rushers. So why not pick Ansah of Jordan? The picks of Cyprien and Gratz weren't terrible, they needed defensive backs. At receiver, they are pretty good with Blackmon and Shorts. So with no QB or pass rush, of course the right idea is to pick a slot receiver in the 4th. But surely in the 5th round they will finally start to address their weakest spots. Nope, let's take a college QB, convert him to RB, and then not use him. Okay, in the 6th or 7th round, let's take a flier on a pass rusher or QB and hope we hit. Nah, let's take three more defensive backs.

An absolutely terrible draft. I know you can't rebuild a team in one year. But they had 8 picks, 2 used on already strong positions, doubled up at safety, and tripled up on corners, and ignored their two biggest weaknesses on a team devoid of talent.
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Old 09-22-2013, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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Beat me to it. This is only a problem if the player sucks in general. Unless somebody honestly believes that if Fisher was at LT somehow he wouldn't be getting beat? Going from LT to RT has nothing to do with it at all. Tyron played great on the right side at 20 years old because he's a good tackle, and honestly I have no problem with teams drafting franchise LT's and putting them at RT for a year before having to face the most elite pass rushers in the NFL.


I agree, this is just the common practice for most teams to start a LT as a rookie at RT to get his feel for the game and then move them to LT the following year. If they remain at RT past a couple of seasons, it is because they weren't good enough to play LT.

Anybody who thinks RT is just as important as a LT, who protects the QB's blindside, just doesn't know football. The exception to this rule only occurs when a QB is left handed.
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