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Old 10-18-2013, 03:13 AM    (permalink
JordanTaber
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Just thought I'd post this again because it's really cool.

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Teams didn't usually try to eliminate him. If they did, Dallas wouldn't be putting Ernie Sims (a linebacker...who initially was showing blitz) on him in a crucial situation when Denver went 4 wides. Check out 2:35 - http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201310...ghts&tab=recap

I'd suggest actually watching some Patriots games and focusing on Welker before the snap. Watch how many times defenses don't even put a corner on him.
Why are the Cowboys covering the great Welker with a linebacker? And would you believe me if I told you that you see Welker matched up one-on-one with linebackers a lot? Because...I'm telling you that. I've told you that before, and I'll keep telling you that because it's true.

Might this be of importance when discussing the difficulty of producing as a slot receiver, as opposed to playing X or Z...hmmm? In addition to a team throwing you screen passes on a regular basis?
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:48 AM    (permalink
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Teams can cover Welker with LBs, or no one, because when he gets yards and touchdowns, they don't count, so there is no reason to dedicate a defender to him.
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:54 AM    (permalink
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They should actually make that a rule. If anyone on your team scores a TD that JordanTaber doesn't think is any good then it only counts 3 points
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:13 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
They should actually make that a rule. If anyone on your team scores a TD that JordanTaber doesn't think is any good then it only counts 3 points
No. They should make a rule that wide receivers who get their production by going against linebackers and catching screen passes behind blockers shouldn't be considered great receivers just because they get a ton of receptions.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:14 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
Teams can cover Welker with LBs, or no one, because when he gets yards and touchdowns, they don't count, so there is no reason to dedicate a defender to him.
I don't know who you're trying to argue with here with your pathetic non-sequiturs, but it's become quite clear that you're a doofus.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:19 AM    (permalink
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There's more than one way to skin a cat and more than one way to be a great WR.

By your logic anyone who plays OG can't be a great player.

They don't have the physical attributes to be a great OT and often match up with slow DTs as opposed to the lighting quick edge rushers of the league.

Playing in the slot is a position to itself. It is not the same as being an X WR for example.

It's like saying Darren Sproles is an average RB because he can't run over people through the hole and only gets yards when he is put in space against LBs.

Darren Sproles is average because he can't do what Adrian Peterson does and you can find any player and plug him into New Orleans to do what he does, which is obviously why Mark Ingram is such a good player
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:05 AM    (permalink
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There's more than one way to skin a cat and more than one way to be a great WR.
When the cat comes with skin that has already been ripped loose, I'm not going to credit the cripple who managed to slide it off.

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By your logic anyone who plays OG can't be a great player.

They don't have the physical attributes to be a great OT and often match up with slow DTs as opposed to the lighting quick edge rushers of the league.
If the guard were known for pass protection and then placed in the same category as Jonathan Ogden, you'd have a point. Fortunately, that never happens. The elite guards in this league are known because of their run blocking.

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Playing in the slot is a position to itself. It is not the same as being an X WR for example.
It is not. Terrell Owens, Jerry Rice, Randy Moss...all of them have lined up in the slot before. Receivers tend to move around, and almost everyone gets a turn in the slot. But Welker gets to stay there all game long, every game.

If they had a separate position called, "slot," that would be one thing. Of course, then you'd have to distinguish between "slots" who run lots of actual patterns (like Brandon Stokley in 2004 with the Colts) and ones who make their living off screens, hitches, drags, and ad-libs against zone, but that's another discussion.

The problem is, on the Pro Bowl ballot, there is no separate "slot receiver" category. Teams don't all operate out of the spread formation using a slot on the vast majority of downs, so there's limited competition at this hypothetical "separate position." Welker is on wide receiver lists, not "slot receiver" lists. He gets put on Top 10 lists with guys like Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, Andre Johnson, Roddy White, Larry Fitzgerald, and A.J. Green.

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It's like saying Darren Sproles is an average RB because he can't run over people through the hole and only gets yards when he is put in space against LBs.
Darren Sproles is a useful utility player. He's not an elite running back.

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Darren Sproles is average because he can't do what Adrian Peterson does and you can find any player and plug him into New Orleans to do what he does, which is obviously why Mark Ingram is such a good player
Darren Sproles is a role player. Who argues otherwise? Darren Sproles doesn't go to the Pro Bowl (unless it's as a return specialist). Darren Sproles doesn't have people vouching for him to get into the Hall of Fame. Wes Welker goes to the Pro Bowl. Wes Welker has people vouching for him to be a Hall of Famer.

And there are Wes Welkers all over the league. There are more receivers than there are running backs. Sproles has some pretty rare attributes in the open field. Welker does not. Welker is a slower, glorified version of Cole Beasley. It would be harder to replace Sproles. On the other hand, Edelman is doing just fine replacing Welker in New England.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:20 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
When the cat comes with skin that has already been ripped loose, I'm not going to credit the cripple who managed to slide it off.



If the guard were known for pass protection and then placed in the same category as Jonathan Ogden, you'd have a point. Fortunately, that never happens. The elite guards in this league are known because of their run blocking.



It is not. Terrell Owens, Jerry Rice, Randy Moss...all of them have lined up in the slot before. Receivers tend to move around, and almost everyone gets a turn in the slot. But Welker gets to stay there all game long, every game.

If they had a separate position called, "slot," that would be one thing. Of course, then you'd have to distinguish between "slots" who run lots of actual patterns (like Brandon Stokley in 2004 with the Colts) and ones who make their living off screens, hitches, drags, and ad-libs against zone, but that's another discussion.

The problem is, on the Pro Bowl ballot, there is no separate "slot receiver" category. Teams don't all operate out of the spread formation using a slot on the vast majority of downs, so there's limited competition at this hypothetical "separate position." Welker is on wide receiver lists, not "slot receiver" lists. He gets put on Top 10 lists with guys like Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, Andre Johnson, Roddy White, Larry Fitzgerald, and A.J. Green.



Darren Sproles is a useful utility player. He's not an elite running back.



Darren Sproles is a role player. Who argues otherwise? Darren Sproles doesn't go to the Pro Bowl (unless it's as a return specialist). Darren Sproles doesn't have people vouching for him to get into the Hall of Fame. Wes Welker goes to the Pro Bowl. Wes Welker has people vouching for him to be a Hall of Famer.

And there are Wes Welkers all over the league. There are more receivers than there are running backs. Sproles has some pretty rare attributes in the open field. Welker does not. Welker is a slower, glorified version of Cole Beasley. It would be harder to replace Sproles. On the other hand, Edelman is doing just fine replacing Welker in New England.
But, surely if Beasley is basically a quicker version of Welker, and his QB Tony Romo, who you have clearly stated is better than Tom Brady, he should have better stats than Welker ever had in New England???

If it was so easy to produce like Welker has produced than why haven't more people done it?

And this is a passing league nowadays. If a OG is a great run blocker but can't pass protect than nobody thinks he is an elite OG
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
The problem is, on the Pro Bowl ballot, there is no separate "slot receiver" category. Teams don't all operate out of the spread formation using a slot on the vast majority of downs, so there's limited competition at this hypothetical "separate position." Welker is on wide receiver lists, not "slot receiver" lists. He gets put on Top 10 lists with guys like Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, Andre Johnson, Roddy White, Larry Fitzgerald, and A.J. Green.
I'm going to play devils advocate here.

You are claiming that Andre Johnson is a Top 10 WR, but Welker isn't? You specifically mention that Welker has never caught double digit TDs. But guess what? Same can be said for Andre Johnson. So what's the difference? They both put up a ton of yards and never score? One plays on the outside and the other plays inside? What's the difference?


Since 2007 their stats look like this:

Andre Johnson: 83 games, 551 catches, 7,796 yards (14.14 Avg), 39 TDs

Wes Welker: 99 games, 709 catches, 7,837 yards (11 Avg), 45 TDs


I'd call Johnson the better player, but I think he's overrated just as much, if not more than, Welker is. For the same reason: He doesn't score TDs. Welker's 2011 season was, however, pretty legit. And comparable to just about any other top tier WR. He doesn't do the same things as elite WRs, and he's physically not dominant, but production is production. It doesn't matter where those 7,837 yards came from - slot or outside - or if Welker is only 5'4'' 148 pounds while Johnson is 6'3'' 230 pounds with 2.6% body fat. None of that, at the end of the day, really matters if neither one of them are drastically changing games. And you change games by scoring and creating turnovers; not shredding record books between the 20s and then disappearing in the red zone.

So what are we talking about? Size? Leaping ability? Speed? I've watched Revis cover Welker in the slot the majority of a game. I've seen Revis cover Johnson in the slot, on the outside for the majority of a game. Guess what? Same results.
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
When you have no argument whatsoever but don't like what the poster is saying, focus on semantics. It's a broken record with you.

Yes, he catches more passes on first and second down than third down. He also catches more on each individual down than on 3rd down, and has one of the lower ratios of catches on 3rd down in comparison to other wide receivers in the NFL. Ergo, not a "third down receiver." There's no reason whatsoever to use the words "Welker" and "third down" in the same sentence.

Wes Welker is the guy you throw a screen pass to on an earlier down.
Which is a fine point, until you consider that 81% of Patriots offensive snaps last season were on downs other than 3rd down, thus it makes essentially no sense to compare other downs to 3rd down.

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Michael Crabtree had the same number of 3rd down receptions as Welker last year. We don't hear anyone talking about him as a "3rd down receiver." You want to know why not? Because it doesn't serve anyone's agenda.

Idiot.


The reason why Michael Crabtree isn't called a 3rd down receiver and Welker is known as one, is simply because Welker converts a higher percentage of his 3rd down targets than Crabtree does (45% first downs vs. 33% first downs for their careers, 44% vs. 34% last season).

Thus nobody has an agenda they're simply speaking the truth. A 45% conversion rate over a career is a very strong number for a receiver. The only person with an agenda is obviously you.

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Old 10-18-2013, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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He just can't handle that Welker is a top level WR. I'm starting to think it's because Welker doesn't fit a certain 'profile' for how WR should look. The guy does nothing but produce on the field and he still doesn't get the respect he deserves.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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But, surely if Beasley is basically a quicker version of Welker, and his QB Tony Romo, who you have clearly stated is better than Tom Brady, he should have better stats than Welker ever had in New England???


If it was so easy to produce like Welker has produced than why haven't more people done it?

And this is a passing league nowadays. If a OG is a great run blocker but can't pass protect than nobody thinks he is an elite OG
You haven't been paying very much attention to my posts regarding systems, have you? I'd suggest researching how many times Cole Beasley has been targeted, as opposed to Wes Welker and Julian Edelman.

Guys like Mike Iupati are in the Pro Bowl because of their run blocking, not their pass protection. Very few defensive tackles record a significant number of sacks, so most guards ain't giving up a whole lot of pressure these days.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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I'm going to play devils advocate here.

You are claiming that Andre Johnson is a Top 10 WR, but Welker isn't? You specifically mention that Welker has never caught double digit TDs. But guess what? Same can be said for Andre Johnson. So what's the difference? They both put up a ton of yards and never score? One plays on the outside and the other plays inside? What's the difference?


Since 2007 their stats look like this:

Andre Johnson: 83 games, 551 catches, 7,796 yards (14.14 Avg), 39 TDs

Wes Welker: 99 games, 709 catches, 7,837 yards (11 Avg), 45 TDs


I'd call Johnson the better player, but I think he's overrated just as much, if not more than, Welker is. For the same reason: He doesn't score TDs. Welker's 2011 season was, however, pretty legit. And comparable to just about any other top tier WR. He doesn't do the same things as elite WRs, and he's physically not dominant, but production is production. It doesn't matter where those 7,837 yards came from - slot or outside - or if Welker is only 5'4'' 148 pounds while Johnson is 6'3'' 230 pounds with 2.6% body fat. None of that, at the end of the day, really matters if neither one of them are drastically changing games. And you change games by scoring and creating turnovers; not shredding record books between the 20s and then disappearing in the red zone.

So what are we talking about? Size? Leaping ability? Speed? I've watched Revis cover Welker in the slot the majority of a game. I've seen Revis cover Johnson in the slot, on the outside for the majority of a game. Guess what? Same results.
Two things.

1. 14.1....11.

2. Making plays on the outside is far more difficult than making plays lining up inside.

I would agree there are certainly better receivers than Andre Johnson, but he's in a different world than Welker.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:08 PM    (permalink
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Which is a fine point, until you consider that 81% of Patriots offensive snaps last season were on downs other than 3rd down, thus it makes essentially no sense to compare other downs to 3rd down.





The reason why Michael Crabtree isn't called a 3rd down receiver and Welker is known as one, is simply because Welker converts a higher percentage of his 3rd down targets than Crabtree does (45% first downs vs. 33% first downs for their careers, 44% vs. 34% last season).

Thus nobody has an agenda they're simply speaking the truth. A 45% conversion rate over a career is a very strong number for a receiver. The only person with an agenda is obviously you.
Nah, that's not why. Nobody knows about the conversion rate (not that it really matters anyway if Crabtree was targeted more on 3rd down but failed more often in a conversation about whether or not a receiver is a "3rd down receiver").

People just like talking about Welker as a "third down guy" because it sounds good. It's another proposed layer for Welker's value, to try to compensate for his lack of impressiveness on the field, his low yards/catch averages, his lack of big plays, and his reliance on the system and the position (s) in which he lines up. If they can make him sound more like a Cris Carter, as opposed to a Julian Edelman, they can make 10-11 yards/catch sound more like a "move the chains" 10-11 yards/catch.
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Old 10-18-2013, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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Nah, that's not why. Nobody knows about the conversion rate (not that it really matters anyway if Crabtree was targeted more on 3rd down but failed more often in a conversation about whether or not a receiver is a "3rd down receiver").

People just like talking about Welker as a "third down guy" because it sounds good. It's another proposed layer for Welker's value, to try to compensate for his lack of impressiveness on the field, his low yards/catch averages, his lack of big plays, and his reliance on the system and the position (s) in which he lines up. If they can make him sound more like a Cris Carter, as opposed to a Julian Edelman, they can make 10-11 yards/catch sound more like a "move the chains" 10-11 yards/catch.
Who exactly is "they" and why do they want Wes Welker to be successful?

Also, I'm impressed by your ability to look at those facts and say "nah, that's not why" when the stats don't match your narrative.
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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I'd rather have good consistent offense than random unpredictable big plays.
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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I'd prefer random unpredictable big plays if they happened often enough.
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:13 PM    (permalink
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If Taber would just stick with "Welker is overrated" and skip the "Edelman is just as good" I would actually agree with him on a lot of points here.
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by yo123 View Post
If Taber would just stick with "Welker is overrated" and skip the "Edelman is just as good" I would actually agree with him on a lot of points here.
Yeah, this is how I feel about most of his debates. Taber just takes interesting thoughts and carries them far beyond their logical conclusion. "Why I would rather have ...Gerry Ellis... than Barry Sanders."
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Old 10-19-2013, 12:44 AM    (permalink
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If Taber would just stick with "Welker is overrated" and skip the "Edelman is just as good" I would actually agree with him on a lot of points here.
I'm not sure what you take issue with regarding that. Edelman has roughly the same usefulness as Welker.
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Old 10-19-2013, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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I'd rather have good consistent offense than random unpredictable big plays.
Well, that's a fair preference. The Patriots have done a good job of generating that with their system over the years. Just like the Broncos always did a good job of it with their running game in the Terrell Davis/Olandis Gary/Mike Anderson/Clinton Portis/Reuben Droughns/Tatum Bell/Mike Bell days.

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Old 10-28-2013, 01:15 AM    (permalink
7DnBrnc53
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The hell? Since Brady took over the Patriots have enjoyed the most success they've ever had as a franchise. Sure playing in the AFC East helps, but that's like saying the 49ers were overrated because they played in the NFC West during the glory years. The Patriots still have to play the difficult teams, like they did yesterday, and especially in the playoffs. They've been very successful at that ever since Brady has been the starting quarterback.
What do you mean, "the hell"?

Did you watch yesterday's game?

This is what I'm talking about. An AFC Least team like Miami lays down and dies for NE, with a little help from the refs. Same formula for the last 12 years.

Also, have you ever heard of this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold.../dp/0985467002

Haven't read it yet, but I plan on getting it. Have seen some great reviews, like this one:

I had always wondered why the media never fully investigated this elaborate and sophisticated cheating scandal....which the Patriots have masterfully orchestrated for years and years. Now I know: there is a $9 Billion/Year business at stake. You know it had to burn at Beli-cheat and his ego to be seen as a second banana to Parcells for so many years - and his petulant, egotistical desire to win at all costs is revealed in factual, rational and logical detail in this very compelling and well researched book. There's nothing worse in competitive sports' than to know that you lost to a team that was playing with a decidedly unfair advantage. As I read this book, among many other shocking pieces of insight that the media never looked into, there were five revelations that spoke volumes to the level of shameless, unethical practices that have run rampant in Foxboro, MA for more than a decade:

1. The insanely abnormal and statistically unheard of "home winning %" the Patriots have in Foxboro since Belichick and Adams arrived.
2. How the Patriots hire virtual unqualified unknowns into Off and Def. Coordinator positions in New England, year after year, where they become "boy wonders" instantly - and then fail miserably when they go to other franchises.
3. The NFL not wanting to interview star witness Matt Walsh - in addition to Goodell having NFL officials "burn and destroy" all the illegal tapes "on site" at Patriots HQ'ers in Foxboro - rather than bringing them back to NFL HQ'ers for further investigation? Are you kidding me?
4. Even in 2010, 3 years after SpyGate, the Patriots go 14-2 with "neither" an Offensive Coordinator OR a Defensive Coordinator on the staff. Just the Pats "Director of Research" Ernie Adams speaking into Bill Belichick's Headset on Game Day. Completely unheard of in todays NFL.
5. And aside from all the illegal taping over the years, which is clearly documented in the book, the 2nd radio frequency, completely illegal, going into Brady's helmet, right before the snap, and/or during the play, so he gets alerted to step up in the pocket right before he gets crushed by a blindside blitz.....or know where an open receiver will be based on the defensive signals obtained.

It's just sickening that a franchise can cheat so deceptively for so many years....and alll they ever got was a slap on the wrist. KUDO's to Bryan O'Leary for writing this book. Tremendous read.
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:26 AM    (permalink
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ROFL @ that entire block of text.

If you think Josh McDaniels or Bill O'Brien "came out of no where", your'e ********. McD spent 9 years under Saban, Belichick/Weis before taking the reigns. Bill O'Brien spent 4 years with New England and had spent 14 years coaching major college football prior to his arrival. Dean Pees had been coaching college ball since 1979 prior to joining the Pats. He was the ******* head coach of Kent State (which has produced a lot of NFL talent) for 6 years prior to becoming the Linebackers coach in 2004. Matt Patricia was with the Pats for 8 years before becoming the DC and spent 8 years as a graduate assistant prior to his time with the Pats. Yeah, all these coaches with decades of experience at various levels are surely coming out of nowhere...

That reviewer is ********, the book surely is ********, and you are ********.
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:29 AM    (permalink
Ness
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Originally Posted by 7DnBrnc53 View Post
What do you mean, "the hell"?

Did you watch yesterday's game?

This is what I'm talking about. An AFC Least team like Miami lays down and dies for NE, with a little help from the refs. Same formula for the last 12 years. [/b]
LMAO. So because the Patriots played in the AFC East that makes Tom Brady overrated? I guess that makes Phil Sims underrated because he played in the NFC East in the 80's and Montana a fraud because he had to play the Rams, Saints, and Falcons twice a year. Oh and Peyton Manning is a goon for slapping the oh-mighty AFC South all those years.

Let's ignore that fact that Brady has been great in the playoffs not always playing his divisional rivals and has three rings to show for it plus two Super Bowl appearances that wouldn't exist if Bledsoe were still there. The "little help from the refs" bit is one of the worst excuses known to man when trying to detract from a team's success.

"OMG IT WAS THE FUCGGING REFS! EVERY GAME! FOR THE LAST 13 YEARS!!! NEW ENGLANDZ CHEATTEDDD!!!!"

Really bro, that's your crackback? And then you're going to send me a link to a book from Amazon with an obvious agenda? Yeah that proves Brady is overrated. You make Inspector Gadget look like Sherlock Holmes.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:10 AM    (permalink
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Really bro, that's your crackback? And then you're going to send me a link to a book from Amazon with an obvious agenda? Yeah that proves Brady is overrated. You make Inspector Gadget look like Sherlock Holmes.
No dude, he's talking about the 2nd radio frequency in Brady's helmet. I think I've figured it out, really. The reason the NFL hasn't caught on is because it's not actually in his helmet, but in his head. Tom Brady isn't human, he's a robot.
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