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Old 10-24-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
Cigaro
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Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
Lack of scholarship players leads to lack of rest in between reps in practice and through games for these players. (USC has starters playing on special teams and scout team!) When players are playing worn out the risk of injury is significantly higher.
FCS plays with 63 scholarship athletes. DII plays with 36 scholarship athletes. They aren't suffering from injury epidemics.

Saying that sanctions are the root of USC's injury program is utter crap. There is clear evidence that teams playing with similar amounts of or even less scholarships aren't plagued by injuries like USC. Whether it's bad luck or poor training, sanctions aren't the source of USC's injuries. Sure now, after the fact, when you combine the sanctions and injuries, it's tough on those who are there. But those who are in the program had either the choice to leave or willingly enrolled knowing they'd be playing on a team with less bodies.

Sanctions didn't cause the injuries, and they shouldn't be removed because of the injuries.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MassNole View Post
Last year Georgia had only 69 scholarship players and were a play or two away from winning the SECCG and finished 12-2 in the SEC. So really no the most convincing argument for USCw right now.
They didn't have Lane Kiffin as a head coach either.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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They didn't have Lane Kiffin as a head coach either.
What's this got to do with anything? Did Lane Kiffin also cause injuries? You've been argued that fewer scholarships cause more injuries, and he pointed to a program that had even less scholarship players than USC did, and suffered no similar injury plague.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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They didn't have Lane Kiffin as a head coach either.
I get that but Mark Richt isn't exactly Nick Saban either. Yes he is a better coach than Lane Kiffin, but then again I'm pretty sure a blind and deaf chimpanzee would be a better coach than Lane Kiffin. But again, that really shows the overarching problem ISN'T numbers, it is a lack of S&C (which they overcame with Carroll as HC but even then it was pretty god awful) and poor coaching.

Take Lee's injured knee. With the game out of hand no competent coach is leaving his best player on the field to return punts. That had NOTHING to do with scholarship numbers, that was purely having a ****** for a coach.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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What's this got to do with anything? Did Lane Kiffin also cause injuries? You've been argued that fewer scholarships cause more injuries, and he pointed to a program that had even less scholarship players than USC did, and suffered no similar injury plague.
1) In Lee's case, he definitely did. Won't speak for the others though.

2) Funny how badly that changed for Georgia in just one year's time.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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1) In Lee's case, he definitely did. Won't speak for the others though.

2) Funny how badly that changed for Georgia in just one year's time.
Georgia itself has a pretty outdated S&C program, and a lot of people think its the root of their injury problem (remember they had a similar plague in 2008 when they were preseason no.1). The fact that with their S&C program they were able to navigate the season with 69 scholarship athletes only further undermines the "less scholarships = more injuries" argument.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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Whether you want to admit it or not, playing with less guys is going to cause injuries, and make it more likely for players to get seriously hurt. I know you can't seem to understand that...but its definitely a cause.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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I don't know if I buy the S&C argument for UGA's problems.

Would a different S&C program have prevented this from tearing Malcom Mitchell's ACL:


Keith Marshall was hurt when a UT player dove into his knee. That could happen to anyone. Those come to mind, but I won't get into every injury.

Maybe the Dawgs need a new S&C program or maybe frustrated fans just want someone to point the finger of blame at.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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I don't know if I buy the S&C argument for UGA's problems.

Would a different S&C program have prevented this from tearing Malcom Mitchell's ACL:


Keith Marshall was hurt when a UT player dove into his knee. That could happen to anyone. Those come to mind, but I won't get into every injury.

Maybe the Dawgs need a new S&C program or maybe frustrated fans just want someone to point the finger of blame at.
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This will probably be lengthy, so bear with me. I wanted to chime in from a different perspective on what I’ve seen the past several seasons regarding your team, you faithful UGA fans.

So I live in Georgia, and most of my friends are UGA fans, so I’m always watching the games with them even though I’m mostly unbiased. One of the things that has been consistent with UGA the past several years, anyone will tell you, is the injuries. Season after season, UGA comes in with a top 10 caliber team, only to lose what feels like half its starters on either side of the ball due to injuries.

Sure, football is a collision sport, there are bound to be injuries. But really? 2 RBs, 4 starting WRs and how many on the OL? And it's half way through the season? What about the year Stafford came back and a pre-season #1 ranked UGA lost, what was it, 3-4 starters on the OL? Malcolm Mitchell tore his ACL celebrating a TD? Anyone remember the Boise State game? No way those kids could hang with UGA right? In the 2nd quarter UGA players were cramping. In the first game of the season. In a DOME. If it's always bad luck after bad luck, how come LSU or Alabama doesn't suffer injuries to the same extent UGA does? I have truly never seen a team, regardless of conference, suffer injuries year after year the way that UGA does, and I think most UGA fans would agree. I don’t have the time to do all the research on it, but if I would be willing to bet that UGA’s multi-game, season, and career-ending injuries are statistically higher when compared to at least the other teams in the SEC. How many times is UGA going to lose key player after key player before we stop attributing it to just "bad luck"? Now, keep that in mind as I segue into another topic.

I am a certified strength and conditioning specialist (the CSCS is a standard certification most athletic HR programs look for when they are hiring a strength & conditioning (S&C) coach), and I’ve had the privilege of working as an intern with UMiami’s (you know Richt is an alum right?) basketball and soccer teams, among others. The SEC is, in general, one of the most difficult S&C jobs to land because of its reputation in sports and the expectations they have. You need to have a strong educational background in exercise science (most jobs list “bachelor’s required, master’s preferred – which generally means you better have a master’s, which I do) as well as 3 key certifications: you must be a Certified Strength & Conditioning Specialist by the NSCA, Strength and Conditioning Coach Certified by the CSCCa, and a USA Weightlifting Certified Sports Performance Coach.

For years, Dave Van Halanger was the director of strength and conditioning at UGA. I'm pretty sure kinesiology/exercise science degrees and research in strength and conditioning probably didn't even exist while he was coaching, but it does now. After being fed up with the conditioning, Van Halanger was moved to "Director of Player Welfare" (whatever that is) in 2011 and Joe Tereshinski Jr. was promoted to Director of S&C. The Tereshinski name is engrained at UGA – Something like 4 generations of players have now come through the program. Tereshinski Jr. graduated in 1977 and had been working as an assistant strength coach at UGA since 1982, and he learned everything he knows from whom? You guessed it, Van Halanger. So the UGA administration ditched Van Halanger and instead of hiring a qualified strength and conditioning coach, promoted Tereshinski in-house to director when he wouldn’t have even been looked at as an ASSISTANT based on his lack of appropriate education and/or certifications related to S&C. So now you have a guy running the strength and conditioning program with no background in exercise science/physiology, whose assistants are more educated than he is in proper S&C programming and protocols, and whom have to shut up and do what they’re told because he’s running the program. They brought over John Thomas from Penn State who is a “Master-level strength coach” as deemed by the CSCCa and has to work as an assistant under Tereshinski.

The point is this: something's fishy here and if I were a betting man I'd put money on it that UGA's S&C program bench presses and curls too much, doesn't train sport specifically enough, lacks any sort of mobility screening (FMS maybe?), is dominantly sagittal-planed, programs exercises out of order and in the improper energy systems, and lacks any sort of oversight into auditing the programming. There is a host of S&C protocols that any person formally educated in this field knows by heart and uses in their programming to protect and strengthen the knee and surrounding ligaments to reduce the risk of injury. However, strength and conditioning has always been a "good ol' boy" type network, and since the Tereshinski family is literally generational in the UGA system, I don't see him leaving anytime soon, especially with Richt's loyalty to his coaches. I'm not saying that all of the injuries are anyone's fault, but UGA loses WAY more key players when compared to their SEC counterparts like LSU or Alabama, season after season. At some point you have to address your S&C and athletic training programs and figure out if it they are at least contributing to the problem, rather than throw up your hands and saying, “Whelp, bad luck again guys. UGA is just cursed, huh?”

I bet if you put Oregon's S&C coach (Radcliffe) at UGA you would get phenomenal results: better conditioned players, faster, more explosive, and fewer injuries. Oregon doesn't come close to getting the caliber athletes that UGA does, but they've made a NAME for themselves based on their speed and conditioning, and Radcliffe is formally educated and in many ways is a pioneer in S&C, and routinely addresses S&C conferences around the country.

It’s hard to “prove” anything as anecdotal as improper programming in workouts = more injuries for UGA, but as an unbiased observer I think Tereshinski is part of the problem for why UGA seems to suffer so many injuries and have poor conditioning year after year. If there’s anyone you should be calling to replace, it’s him. Fatigued players are always more susceptible to non-contact knee and hamstring injuries.

Just my thoughts, thanks for reading.

EDIT 1: Here is a video of one of UGA's workouts: http://youtu.be/p4_OWHufwDU[1] . If we assume the editing is in proper order (which I'll admit, we don't know), they are trap-bar deadlifting towards the end of the work out (this particular exercise would tax the CNS way more than anything else and should be towards the front of the workout), and the workout is centered around chest and biceps (close-grip bench presses, curls, chain curls, chin ups, etc.). The only really good exercise I see is the trunk rotations with the bar, which unsurprisingly are clearly being led by John Thomas, the former director at Penn State, whom I mentioned earlier.

Assuming this is a winter 2013 workout (which the video says it is), that means they were just out of season in either January or February when they filmed this, which means they should have entered into asymmetrically-loaded and mostly unilateral work to strengthen the trunk and get rid of any imbalances as they transition into hypertrophy. However, it's mostly bilateral work and the players are using chains, which doesn't make any sense because chains would be better for strength/power/in-season workouts since the whole point is that they are heavier through the concentric portion of the lift, teaching the athlete to explode from the bottom of the lift. This is a glorified bodybuilding workout.

EDIT 2: I'd also like to point out that I'm not even saying it's necessarily appropriate for Tereshinski to be fired. I even said "replaced" in the original write up. As /u/epmatsw [2] pointed out, I don't have the numbers to prove any of my claims, and in all honesty don't care enough to find 10 years worth of injuries for every school and compare them all. I'm just saying it's a hunch, and at the very least some auditing needs to be done into the program. If it turns out that it IS a confirmation bias and UGA's injuries are on par with the rest of the teams out there, I'll be the first to tell you that I was wrong. But it certainly offers an explanation as to why these injuries occur so often.

http://www.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments...bad_luck_from/
The argument isn't that every single injury is the result of a bad S&C program, but when you have as many as Georgia has had, that's probably indicative of something more than bad luck.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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Whether you want to admit it or not, playing with less guys is going to cause injuries, and make it more likely for players to get seriously hurt. I know you can't seem to understand that...but its definitely a cause.
Just saying it's true doesn't make it true. If you want to provide evidence that scholarship reductions have led to a systematic increase in injuries go ahead, but everything that's been posted so far has pointed in the opposite direction. It's not a case of wanting to admit it or not, you've shown absolutely no evidence to corroborate your statement.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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What's this got to do with anything? Did Lane Kiffin also cause injuries? You've been argued that fewer scholarships cause more injuries, and he pointed to a program that had even less scholarship players than USC did, and suffered no similar injury plague.
If you read Massnole's post I was replying to then you would understand my response wasn't aimed towards injuries.(He referenced UGA's w/l record)

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:38 PM    (permalink
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James Wilder Jr. is out for the NC State game due to a concussion.
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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The argument isn't that every single injury is the result of a bad S&C program, but when you have as many as Georgia has had, that's probably indicative of something more than bad luck.
The person who posted that even said that he hasn't compared UGA's number of injuries over the years to other schools. Florida is having lots of injuries this year. Do they have a poor S&C program too? The strengths of his argument come from a few examples of evidence, his claims of education, his friends who root for UGA and a Youtube video. That's not enough to convince me that it's definitely a problem with the S&C program. UGA pours tons of money into its football program. Why would they be half-assed and unprofessional about their S&C program?

Fans love to call for people to get fired. It's an easy and simple minded solution when things are going bad. UGA fans are as quick to call for firing assistants as perhaps any fanbase ever. They love Richt, because he's a nice guy and a "good Christian man", but there's constant calls to fire this or that assistant. Listening to talk radio in Athens in the most predictable thing ever. When things are going well, fans want to talk about Richt and the players. When they lose it's "FIRE BOBO! FIRE GRANTHAM! FIRE TERESHINSKI!".
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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Some ****** SEC defense going on tonight.
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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We self imposed scholarship restrictions already, not sure why that shouldn't count for something.
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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James Wilder Jr. is out for the NC State game due to a concussion.
I was hoping they hold him out until Miami.

Freeman and Los can carry the load this weekend.
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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We self imposed scholarship restrictions already, not sure why that shouldn't count for something.
It already did as the scholarship losses are minimal.
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:30 PM    (permalink
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The scholarships we held back the past 2 years have nothing to do with that number.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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The scholarships we held back the past 2 years have nothing to do with that number.
You can't really believe that.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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They weren't in the report, they weren't presented at the COI meeting, and now they're asking for them to count for the announced sanctions, why would they have counted for us?
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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The person who posted that even said that he hasn't compared UGA's number of injuries over the years to other schools. Florida is having lots of injuries this year. Do they have a poor S&C program too? The strengths of his argument come from a few examples of evidence, his claims of education, his friends who root for UGA and a Youtube video. That's not enough to convince me that it's definitely a problem with the S&C program. UGA pours tons of money into its football program. Why would they be half-assed and unprofessional about their S&C program?

Fans love to call for people to get fired. It's an easy and simple minded solution when things are going bad. UGA fans are as quick to call for firing assistants as perhaps any fanbase ever. They love Richt, because he's a nice guy and a "good Christian man", but there's constant calls to fire this or that assistant. Listening to talk radio in Athens in the most predictable thing ever. When things are going well, fans want to talk about Richt and the players. When they lose it's "FIRE BOBO! FIRE GRANTHAM! FIRE TERESHINSKI!".
I don't think you understood the argument. Does Florida have major injuries problems yearly, or nearly ever year as Georgia does? No. Again, the argument isn't that one bad season for injuries indicates something is wrong with S&C program. The argument is that when you have many bad seasons for injuries, that is indicative of something wrong in the S&C program. As the guy stated, can you think of any program that has had the yearly injury problems the same way Georgia has?

As for why they'd be half-assed and unprofessional with their S&C program, again, that's stated clearly in the post. S&C jobs are often given out through the good ol' boy system, and Tereshinski is a fourth generation Bulldog. He was hired and retained because of deep familial ties with the team. It was a pretty clear explanation.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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I don't think you understood the argument. Does Florida have major injuries problems yearly, or nearly ever year as Georgia does? No. Again, the argument isn't that one bad season for injuries indicates something is wrong with S&C program. The argument is that when you have many bad seasons for injuries, that is indicative of something wrong in the S&C program. As the guy stated, can you think of any program that has had the yearly injury problems the same way Georgia has?

As for why they'd be half-assed and unprofessional with their S&C program, again, that's stated clearly in the post. S&C jobs are often given out through the good ol' boy system, and Tereshinski is a fourth generation Bulldog. He was hired and retained because of deep familial ties with the team. It was a pretty clear explanation.
Saying that a team has major injuries every year doesn't make it so. Earlier you brought up this year and the 2008 season. The 2008 season was 5 years ago. Yes, they had some good players hurt last year and other years too, but that isn't hard, conclusive evidence of a problem in the S&C program.

And Tereshinski is one person in the S&C program. I doubt he's some kind of dark overlord who dictates how everyone does their job while refusing to listen to any input.

I understand the argument, I just don't see the supporting evidence to make it a conclusive one.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:43 AM    (permalink
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The scholarships we held back the past 2 years have nothing to do with that number.
You are delusional. 3 scholarships per year? Bahaha, comical. If you don't think its because of what you held back yourself you are crazy.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:51 AM    (permalink
MassNole
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You are delusional. 3 scholarships per year? Bahaha, comical. If you don't think its because of what you held back yourself you are crazy.
For reference for the online class issue, FSU lost 6 scholarships over 3 years (plus self imposed losses), so Miami losing 9 for this scandal is just pathetic. I understand why USCw fans are so upset, I understand why Miami got off lighter by cooperating, but really the NCAA just established you can let boosters do whatever they want and not really get punished.
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