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Old 04-05-2007, 03:12 PM    (permalink
bsaza2358
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Originally Posted by Big Mike View Post
bailey at CB and dawkins at FS and Gates at TE
Dawkins isn't that far ahead of the curve. There are plenty of talented FS's in the league. Sean Taylor is incredibly gifted physically. Kerry Rhodes and Adrian Wilson are also very, very good.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by niel89 View Post
i dont pay enough attention to punting. if my team is punting im normally pissed at that point.

its hard to determine punters because they recieve little to no recognition.
Well to put a spin on it so niel89 can understand, The Ravens have been well adjusted to finding punters over the years. We had Greg Montgomery for a few years, then Kyle Richardson who could pin it inside the 20 almost at will, we then drafted Dave Zastudil in the 4th round, and then when Dave left we drafted Sammy Koch who had an excellent year for a rookie.

While Feagles has been doing it for years, my vote for the best punter would be Brian Moorman. He almost never has a bad punt and can kick it directionally very well especially in Buffalo when battling those winds.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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Dawkins isn't that far ahead of the curve. There are plenty of talented FS's in the league. Sean Taylor is incredibly gifted physically. Kerry Rhodes and Adrian Wilson are also very, very good.
While Dawkins, Rhodes, and Wilson are very, very good, Ed Reed is better. He has an uncanny knack for making big plays and is almost always in the right position. He truly is a quarterback in the secondary and it seems that he sometimes knows the routes better then the WR's and QB's running/throwing them. Let's not forget the fact that Reed won the Defensive Player of the Year award not to long ago, something that Mr. Dawkins has never been close to doing.
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Originally Posted by Job View Post
On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Ed Reed is incredibly good, but he isn't that much better that you can say he is "far ahead of the competition". I haven't heard anyone else here even say that Reed is absolutely the best safety in the league.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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plus moorman can take a hit
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bsaza2358 View Post
Ed Reed is incredibly good, but he isn't that much better that you can say he is "far ahead of the competition". I haven't heard anyone else here even say that Reed is absolutely the best safety in the league.
It's tough to argue against Reed as the best safety in the league.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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It's tough to argue against Reed as the best safety in the league.
Bob Sanders, when he's healthy, is an utter assassin. I know I sound like a homer, but he was 90% responsible for the defensive resurgence the Colts had, which led to a Super Bowl win. I'm not saying he's better than Ed, but I don't think the margin is THAT far off.

Mike Brown of the Bears isn't exactly bad, either...
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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Bob Sanders, when he's healthy, is an utter assassin. I know I sound like a homer, but he was 90% responsible for the defensive resurgence the Colts had, which led to a Super Bowl win. I'm not saying he's better than Ed, but I don't think the margin is THAT far off.

Mike Brown of the Bears isn't exactly bad, either...
I would rate a few safeties higher than Sanders. I don't think he's that close to Reed.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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In your opinion, who is the best at their position by the largest amount?

To start things off, I'm going to say I easily think it is Bailey being better than the rest of the cornerbacks. Second... Ed Reed at safety.
Dawkins >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reed!!!!!
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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I never said Reed wasn't the best. He won DPOY on a defense that got incredible pressure. His 9 INT's were fantastic, but he had the defense around him to take the chances to make that stuff happen. Since 2004, Reed has only 6 INT's (injury shortened 2005). He is also deployed differently from Rhodes, Taylor, and Dawkins. Dawkins has a lot more sacks. His presence closer to the line negates many of these INT opportunities.

We also haven't mentioned Troy Polamalu, who could also be in the argument.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Manning is by far the most skilled QB in the league. He's probably the top QB planet earth has ever seen talent wise.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Bob Sanders, when he's healthy, is an utter assassin. I know I sound like a homer, but he was 90% responsible for the defensive resurgence the Colts had, which led to a Super Bowl win. I'm not saying he's better than Ed, but I don't think the margin is THAT far off.

Mike Brown of the Bears isn't exactly bad, either...
Homer....... :D
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Originally Posted by Job View Post
On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
Quote:
Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Bob Sanders, when he's healthy, is an utter assassin. I know I sound like a homer, but he was 90% responsible for the defensive resurgence the Colts had, which led to a Super Bowl win. I'm not saying he's better than Ed, but I don't think the margin is THAT far off.

Mike Brown of the Bears isn't exactly bad, either...
I'd like to see 2 consecutive seasons of a healthy Sanders before I put him on any top 5 lists...
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Dawkins >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reed!!!!!
get job backing up your opinion with facts
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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In regards to the issue of safety. I think Reed is the best safety in the league, but not by a large enough margin. Brian Dawkins is right up there with him. He may not be the playmaker Reed is on the ball, but he also does things better than Reed, like tackle, blitz, hit, and run support. Its not as far of a margin as many think.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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I never said Reed wasn't the best. He won DPOY on a defense that got incredible pressure. His 9 INT's were fantastic, but he had the defense around him to take the chances to make that stuff happen. Since 2004, Reed has only 6 INT's (injury shortened 2005). He is also deployed differently from Rhodes, Taylor, and Dawkins. Dawkins has a lot more sacks. His presence closer to the line negates many of these INT opportunities.

We also haven't mentioned Troy Polamalu, who could also be in the argument.
very good points. i feels Polamalum and Dawkins are also up there. i havent seen enough of the others to comment on them
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Not gonna lie, I sound like a homer again, but I side with bsaza and ricky bobby when I think Peyton is really by far the best QB in the league. It's unfair to say Brady is better than Peyton or at his level just because he has more rings. Super Bowls are a team effort. Even though I hate him and the Pats (it comes with the territory...), I still respect him as a player and a talent.

But really, Peyton is just a monster. He's the best statistical QB of all time, and as of a few months ago, he can now say he has a ring, too. Is it really THAT far off to say Peyton is that much better than Brady?

When we look down the road, 30 years from now, and list the greatest quarterbacks of all time, do we REALLY expect Brady to be close to Peyton? He's a potential #1. Brady wouldn't crack the top 5.

Just my humble opinion...
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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care to quantify how much better alstott is than the other 50% fo the fullbacks in the nfl? or are you just being a homer?
did i say he was better than the other 50%? No i didn't. You said he couldn't even hold their jockstrap, but he has gotten so much better at blocking since the 2004 season. I was just saying you must not see alot of buc games because he has become a really good blocker. Yea he wasnt great before but he is a good blocker now.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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In regards to the issue of safety. I think Reed is the best safety in the league, but not by a large enough margin. Brian Dawkins is right up there with him. He may not be the playmaker Reed is on the ball, but he also does things better than Reed, like tackle, blitz, hit, and run support. Its not as far of a margin as many think.

Now I have an issue with the comment that Dawkins supports the run better then Reed. The Ravens are better as a collective defense at stopping the run so as Reed doesn't get as much credit statistically for run support but he is still up there helping. Whereas the Eagles aren't as good as the Ravens at stopping the so Dawkins gets more statistical credit but both support the run well. The only way we could attempt to resolve this issue is to define the Safety position into quantifiable numbers and then judge and compare Ed Reed and Brian Dawkins. Both are great players but I still stand firm to the fact that Ed Reed is better due to him being a former Defensive Player of the Year and Dawkins has never been that nor close to being that.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Now I have an issue with the comment that Dawkins supports the run better then Reed. The Ravens are better as a collective defense at stopping the run so as Reed doesn't get as much credit statistically for run support but he is still up there helping. Whereas the Eagles aren't as good as the Ravens at stopping the so Dawkins gets more statistical credit but both support the run well. The only way we could attempt to resolve this issue is to define the Safety position into quantifiable numbers and then judge and compare Ed Reed and Brian Dawkins. Both are great players but I still stand firm to the fact that Ed Reed is better due to him being a former Defensive Player of the Year and Dawkins has never been that nor close to being that.
Its not by a wide margin. I think Dawkins is a slightly better run stuffer. He has textbook tackling technique.

You can also make an argument that Reed is just as good of a blitzer, but under Ryans scheme doesn't play close to the line as much. I know, I hear you trust me.

Its just that, right here right now, I have to give the slight edge to Dawkins in those categories because of his body of work. But its very very close. Dawkins has been doing it a little longer, so he gets the nod in some of those categories, and we have more film to go by to see that. But its very very close.

The whole point I was trying to make with that post is that Reed isnt light years ahead of the competition. Thats basically the take home message of what I was saying.

I should also note that I believe that Reed is in fact the best safety in the league, just not by as wide of a margin as some others do.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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No one is saying that Reed isn't the best safety in the game. The topic of the conversation is margin of quality over the rest of the players at the position. Surely you cannot argue that Reed is not so dominant over the rest of the field (Dawkins, Roy Williams--HA, Polamalu, Rhodes, Wilson, Taylor) that it is basically no contest.

You also keep pointing to the 2004 DPOY Award that Reed won. I think that any award given over 2 years ago is absolutely moot. In 2004, Jim Mora Jr. won Coach of the Year. Does that mean he's the best coach in the league? That point is absolutely moot, though it does speak to the overall quality of Reed's play 2 years ago. I also note that he hasn't come close to those numbers since that year.

Bottom line here is that Reed is likely the consensus top safety in the NFL, but he is not so much better than others that it really makes a significant difference.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:53 PM    (permalink
SuperMcGee
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For all the kicker and FB talk, I'm actually surprised I only saw Moorman mentioned once. I'm sorry, but I can't think of anyone as consistently great. His power, his uncanny ability against the wind, hangtime, and, of course his biggest strength, his perfect placement. And yes, he is great at running a fake. Of course he got wrecked the time he did it on his biggest stage, but he's pulled it off plenty of times in the past and is that fast.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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:( I was looking forward to debating my QB stance with a Pats homer...I guess there aren't any in this thread. Oh, and yeah, it's true Sanders is hurt waaay too much. Kind of a awkward position, wondering if we should resign him or not. And wow, I totally forgot about Polamalu, he's a beast.
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Old 04-05-2007, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDawg819 View Post
While Dawkins, Rhodes, and Wilson are very, very good, Ed Reed is better. He has an uncanny knack for making big plays and is almost always in the right position. He truly is a quarterback in the secondary and it seems that he sometimes knows the routes better then the WR's and QB's running/throwing them. Let's not forget the fact that Reed won the Defensive Player of the Year award not to long ago, something that Mr. Dawkins has never been close to doing.
thats why i said FS. pola and reed are SS's
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