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Old 11-19-2013, 09:09 AM    (permalink
XxXdragonXxX
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Originally Posted by djp View Post
I really don't think it was catchable unless you think Gronk somehow undercuts that safety and makes the catch w/o Kuechly holding him. I agreed with the call then and still agree with it now after watching the play again. I just don't see a scenario where Gronk could have caught that ball. If the safety isn't there, it's obviously DPI to me. But that's not the case.
That's not the point of the rule. Its about where the ball is in relation to the receiver being interfered with, not if he would have been able to neat a defender to the ball. He could have been surrounded by 11 defenders, if the ball was thrown in his vicinity, it is "catchable."


It was a bad throw and almost certainly would have been picked of anyway, which is why this call doesn't really brother me and people should move on.
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:10 AM    (permalink
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I didn't think it was PI, i thought it was holding and should have been 5 yards and another play.

Either way that was an amazing game to watch.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ness View Post
Gronk was in the exact spot where the ball was thrown when Kuechly made contact with the ball in the air. Maybe he would have had a tough time stopping his momentum to come back for the ball, but that isn't up to the ref to guess. It was PI, anybody who suggests otherwise is completely and unequivocally wrong.

With that being said you win some calls and you lose some calls. The Pats lost because they made mistakes with 2 Personal Fouls and a fumble.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
not that i'm trying to twist the knife, and not that i think it's a meaningful equivalency, but after years of the patriots getting calls, it's hard to cry too much after tonight. especially when it won't really make any difference in playoff terms.
Eh, the Pats have won calls and lost calls forever. They've lost 4 games in the past 2 years directly resulting from questionable calls from the refs, and have won a couple because of it in that time period. Even going further back they've won and lost playoff games based on calls (Tuck rule and the horrendous PI call in the 06 Playoffs that spotted the Colts a TD).

To suggest that the Pats have been perpetually the beneficiary of calls is fundamentally incorrect.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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From that gif it clearly looks like PI to me. I think at the very least it was holding.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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Pretty simple...

Quote:
ILLEGAL CONTACT BEYOND FIVE-YARD ZONE
Beyond the five-yard zone, if the player who receives
the snap remains in the pocket with the ball, a
defender may use his hands or arms only to defend or protect
himself against impending contact caused by a receiver.
If the receiver attempts to evade the defender,
the defender cannot chuck him, or extend an arm(s)
to cut off or hook him, causing contact that redirects,
restricts, or impedes the receiver in any way.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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I don't see how anyone can argue it wasn't a penalty. Pick PI, holding, illegal contact, whatever you want. They should have had another play.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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It makes me dislike the roughing call against Brees even more. I didn't whine about that because I understood the rule and its black-and-white nature. Interpretation doesn't come into play (perhaps it should but doesn't.)

Then last night, open interpretation is clearly used.

It should be one way or the other.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by phlysac View Post
It makes me dislike the roughing call against Brees even more. I didn't whine about that because I understood the rule and its black-and-white nature. Interpretation doesn't come into play (perhaps it should but doesn't.)

Then last night, open interpretation is clearly used.

It should be one way or the other.
I think this play was actually directly related to the Brooks play.

It's clear that Luke Keuchly is attempting to show Ahmad Brooks exactly how you bear hug an offensive player on the last play of the game.

Because the officials appreciated the demonstration of support from another defender, they kept their flags in their pockets.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Trogdor View Post
Can we please stop with the Gronk was pushed out of the play crap. Gronk is a monster who showed ZERO interest in breaking back towards the ball. If he wanted to break back on the ball he would had bullied Kuechly. He was content to stand with Kuechly once he realized the ball was well short. Hence why the flag was picked up for DPI.
Gronk was interfered with when he planted to change direction to work back towards the ball. Gronk is a big guy, but we're talking 265 with no momentum vs. 250 with momentum. What was Gronk supposed to do. Had he fought Kuechly, he would have messed up his chance at what should have been a PI call.

At the same time it shouldn't matter at all how big or strong someone is. If someone has his back turned to the ball, runs into you, and wraps you up that is PI regardless of whether you're 265 or 170 pounds. The rule isn't up for interpretation based on the size of the receiver.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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It couldn't have possibly been illegal contact, Brady had stepped up and left the pocket. It couldn't have possibly been holding, contact wasn't made until the ball was in the air. It could have only possibly been PI, people need to stop claiming it could have been anything else.

Also, while I think its certainly debatable whether or not it should have been PI, Gronkowski could not have realistically caught that ball. Before the potential PI was made, Gronk was backpeddling and had already slipped behind Kuechly. In order to make that catch, he would have had to have planted and dove through both Kuechly and Lester. If the ball had been high I could see him winning a jump ball, and I know some people will lazily claim "but Gronk is Gronk!" but he's not diving through both Kuechly and Lester to catch the ball, at least not without committing pass interference himself. The only actual outcome of the no-call was that Kuechly's poor decision to interfere with Gronkowski did not redeem Brady's equally poor pass. Had Kuechly not committed PI, the result would have been the same, the Patriots would have still lost.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cigaro View Post
It couldn't have possibly been illegal contact, Brady had stepped up and left the pocket. It couldn't have possibly been holding, contact wasn't made until the ball was in the air. It could have only possibly been PI, people need to stop claiming it could have been anything else.

Also, while I think its certainly debatable whether or not it should have been PI, Gronkowski could not have realistically caught that ball. Before the potential PI was made, Gronk was backpeddling and had already slipped behind Kuechly. In order to make that catch, he would have had to have planted and dove through both Kuechly and Lester. If the ball had been high I could see him winning a jump ball, and I know some people will lazily claim "but Gronk is Gronk!" but he's not diving through both Kuechly and Lester to catch the ball, at least not without committing pass interference himself. The only actual outcome of the no-call was that Kuechly's poor decision to interfere with Gronkowski did not redeem Brady's equally poor pass. Had Kuechly not committed PI, the result would have been the same, the Patriots would have still lost.
So if the situation were reversed you're ok with a Patriot linebacker putting Steve Smith in a bear hug and walking him to the back of the endzone.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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So if the situation were reversed you're ok with a Patriot linebacker putting Steve Smith in a bear hug and walking him to the back of the endzone.
In that same situation I wouldn't claim that Smith could have realistically caught it, no. Smith might be a physical player, but he's no more likely to dive through a linebacker and safety to make a catch. I said it was debatable as to whether the flag should have been thrown anyway due to the proximity, but that doesn't change the fact that Gronk simply could not have actually caught that ball.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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Gronk was interfered with when he planted to change direction to work back towards the ball. Gronk is a big guy, but we're talking 265 with no momentum vs. 250 with momentum. What was Gronk supposed to do. Had he fought Kuechly, he would have messed up his chance at what should have been a PI call.

At the same time it shouldn't matter at all how big or strong someone is. If someone has his back turned to the ball, runs into you, and wraps you up that is PI regardless of whether you're 265 or 170 pounds. The rule isn't up for interpretation based on the size of the receiver.
Interesting you quote my post and didn't actually read it.

I'll break it down for you:

Quote:
"Can we please stop with the Gronk was pushed out of the play crap. Gronk is a monster who showed ZERO interest in breaking back towards the ball. If he wanted to break back on the ball he would had bullied Kuechly."
Note: This has nothing to do with the penalty situation. It has more to do with the "Kuechly bear hugged and FORCED Gronk off a spot" rhetoric here. Clearly Gronk shuffled and made zero attempt for the spot. Essentially I'm saying Gronk saw the pass underthrown and didn't feel he had the ability to make a play on it so he quit.

If he had fought Kuechly perhaps he would have been in a position to make a play on the ball OR be in a position where the official couldn't rule "uncatchable". Gronk is a bull in a china shop it was blatantly obvious he didn't believe he could get to the ball.

For example: Gronk believes he can catch this underthrown ball despite contact.



If Gronk believed he could make a play on the ball against the Panthers he would have at MINIMUM barreled into Kuechly drawing an unavoidable flag. By quitting on the play he gave the officials an out.

Once again I will reiterate. I'm fine with the "uncatchable" ruling given the above. Gronk didn't make a play for the ball and Kuechly didn't bully him out of position. It most CERTAINLY was defensive holding however it being the final play of the game the officials avoid tossing flags at all costs.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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It most CERTAINLY was defensive holding however it being the final play of the game the officials avoid tossing flags at all costs.
No, no it wasn't, and couldn't have possibly been.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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that's a ridiculous conclusion to come to. if he'd fought, he probably gets the call. instead, he shows less than no interest in making the catch, making it appear that he really didn't have any chance at it. there was a lackadaisical plant to tell the officials that he could've caught it, nothing else. let's try to be slightly objective, here.
Absolutely - drive hard for that ball, even if there was no way of getting there, and I suspect you get the call.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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If Gronk actually makes an effort, its PI. He didn't so they picked up the flag. Whatevs, Pats have been handed games due to poor officiating before, just like every team has. Win some, lose some. Move on.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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Where's a ref saying "just give it to them" when you need one?
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Old 11-19-2013, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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That was a clear pass interference play, Luke clearly had his hands on him. you see Gronk take a clear step the other way back to the ball but is pushed back away from the ball then is bear hugged. Now to be fair 38 had a much better angle at the ball but who knows what would of happen if Gronk would of had a good lunge at it himself. He could of wrestled the ball away or made an attempt on the ball. It was the last play not like possession mattered.

Luke clearly overran the play put his right arm out and around Gronk pushing him back away from that ball. You as a player cannot alter another players path to the ball by grabbing or pushing them which clearly happened here. Luke could of stood there and he has the right to that area of the field but when he begins to tackle him that changes that. The ball is still in the air when this happens.

Luke played it right until his right arm runs into Gronks side and the left hand hits the shoulder pad of Gronk. This is the start of the interference even before the hug. A player shouldn't have to throw his hands up and act like a fool or flop you can see a clear turn then a drive back.

This is a bad call by the refs plain and simple, they are deciding right there that because of 38 he had a clear shot at the ball and that Gronk did not and that right there is not a decision a referee should be making.

and just a lil food for thought Fuller didn't have position on this play but still got the int. The person with the best position and angle doesn't always get the ball

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...n-the-end-zone
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Old 11-19-2013, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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And just a fyi my horse in this race is the Panthers winning I wanted them to win for 2 reasons. I hate the Patriots and I do not want to see the Saints have home field in the playoffs or at least first round bye.

I did not like the fact that the refs are deciding based on one player having a better angle that a ball is catch able or not. The ball was in the area, and Small chance or not we don't know but that was not allowed to play out.
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Old 11-19-2013, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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And just a fyi my horse in this race is the Panthers winning I wanted them to win for 2 reasons. I hate the Patriots and I do not want to see the Saints have home field in the playoffs or at least first round bye.

I did not like the fact that the refs are deciding based on one player having a better angle that a ball is catch able or not. The ball was in the area, and Small chance or not we don't know but that was not allowed to play out.
Exactly. Uncatchable is for balls 10 feet over a receivers head. Whether Gronk could have caught it or just been within a couple of feet of it is irrelevant it's still interferance.

So what is the precident going forward. Can you just bear hug guys and walk them away from where the QB throws the ball and say it's uncatchable. Obviously not. As soon as thursday night they'll start calling that differant than they did last night.
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Old 11-19-2013, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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More important than whatever you nerds are talking about: Beason might be byck.
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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I don't see what Gronks reaction has to do with anything really, if you're interfered with you're interfered with. Shouldn't matter if you continue towards the ball or not.

I'm not seeing how anyone can argue differently.
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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that's because you're not reading what they're saying, and where some of us have fully explained EXACTLY why his reaction was an issue.
Doesn't matter, interference is interference anyway you look at it.

To me, there's no difference between a receiver getting wrapped up on a play that was or was not catchable than an WR getting called for holding at the line of scrimmage on the backside of a play.

By that type of reasoning, if a play is run to the opposite side of the field, no offensive holding should be called.
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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It should have been a penalty. Straight grabbing a receiver and hugging him isn't legal.
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